Exploring Trinitarian Logic

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Taken

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Isaiah states that he "shall be called" (i.e. in the Kingdom Age, vs. 7)

Have you noticed how many times in our discussions you and Johann never read the context or even the verse clearly enough to form truth.

It’s not that he is now "The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father." While the work of this kingdom is carried out by Christ, it is the zeal of the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts that will accomplish it (Isa. 9:7). As Christ said, "I can of mine own self do nothing" (John 5:30).

If you ever want to learn how to read Scripture correctly start a private conversation and I'll show you anytime.

F2F

“When” a human man “calls” The Lord…this or that…fact IS WHO” He IS “remains”…

Isa 41:
[4] Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.

Heb 13:
[8] Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Do you know WHO blots out (forgives) SIN?
He who IS even with God, IS God.

Isa 43:
[25] I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

John 8:
[24] I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:’
[28] Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

^^ Correct…
And GOD WITHOUT His Word Speaks Not.
And God WITHOUT His Power Acts Not

Name of Gods Word? JESUS
Title of Gods Power? CHRIST

Glory to God,
Taken
 

amigo de christo

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Projecting.
rather odd a liberal progressive term .
But then not so odd . I warned you and others for a long time
THEY GONNA Merge you all through satans lie of a false love , an interfaith .
Its getting harder and harder to tell the difference between a staunch liberal and a staunch conservative .
AT LEAST WHEN IT COMES TO THE RELIGIOUS IDEOLOGY OF THIS FALSE LOVE .
ITS WORKING on you all now . and TRUMP and vance will finish the job that the progressive liberal popes began .
YALL is being duped friend . You know what both sides have in common
THEY BOTH TWIST SCRIPTURE and love a lie . THOUGH their doctrine is not identical
THEY BOTH NOW beleive ITS NO NEED to be anyway lets just lovey do and get along . THEY ALL headed RIGHT INTO THE SAME
SNARE friend .
IF i didnt know you voted for trump
and i didnt know several others on here voted harris , HECK I THINK YOU ALL WERE OF THE SAME TREE .
cause in truth , YOU now are . THEY GOT YALL . interfaith WILL FINISH THE JOB .
I just felt so sad when i typed that to you . My eyes have began to water , I NEVER wanted that for you my friend .
ALL i ever wanted for you all was GOOD . but many just no longer want TRUTH or the LOVE OF GOD
they want a lie .
 
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Magdala

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I said more than that. Consider the topic of this thread, which is centered on the Logic of Trinitarianism. You raised Matthew 28:19 in defense of your belief that it serves as a clear, unambiguous passage supporting the Trinity Doctrine. I disagreed with your view for the reasons I gave.

If you want to recant your view, then say so. Otherwise, make Matthew 28:19 relevant to the topic at hand

And, I've been addressing your counter-arguments. You said that the reason why the apostles were instructed by Jesus to baptize "in the name (authority) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit", is because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't contradict each Other in what They teach, not because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't contradict each Other in what They teach, that's correct, but the teachings of John, incomplete or not, didn't contradict the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit either, yet Jesus didn't instruct the apostles to baptize in his name as well. Therefore, Jesus didn't say "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" for the reason that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't contradict each Other. You still have to find the real reason for why Jesus instructed His apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I'll help you by first asking, if the Father, the Son, and the Holy aren't God, then Who are They?
 
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amigo de christo

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No. Scripture says there is only God the Father. Trinitarians twist this to mean what it does not say.

Knowing you are doing the twisting, you do what Liberal progressives do, project. You accuse your opponent of what you yourself are doing.
well then i learned a new term projecting . But rather odd it seems those who accuse ,as you did , are the ones
REALLY doing this . You think its me , but its you my friend . But thanks for teaching me a new term
so as i now can at least know what it means to project . My tears are for you my friend and for good reason too .
You must abandon all hope in interfaith inclusive love , its deadly and it is of anti christ .
Lets start with that .
 
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Johann

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Why daughters?
And why over the wall?
You can go deeper, you know?

Verse (in Hebrew):
יוסף בֶּן־פֶּרֶת בּוֹעַת עַיִן בְּעַל־שׁוֹר בְּנֹתָיו רָהֲבוּ עַל־הַגָּבֶל
(Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a well; his daughters run over the wall)

יוסף (Yosef) - Noun:

Form: Proper noun, masculine singular.
Meaning: Joseph.
Role: Subject of the sentence.
Grammatical Note: Joseph, the eleventh son of Jacob, is often portrayed as the favorite son and a model of God's providence. The name "Joseph" itself means "May He Add," reflecting his role as a key figure in the story of Israel’s preservation.

בֶּן (ben) - Noun:

Form: Noun, masculine singular.
Meaning: Son.
Role: Noun (subject of the phrase).
Grammatical Note: The word "ben" literally means "son" and can refer to a male child or offspring. Here, it indicates Joseph as the "son" of Israel, and the word serves as an integral part of the title "Joseph, the son" in the poetic blessing.

פֶּרֶת (peret) - Noun:

Form: Noun, feminine singular.
Meaning: A fruitful branch, or a bough.
Role: Subject complement in the nominative case, describing Joseph's attributes.

Grammatical Note: The term "peret" refers to a branch or a bough, particularly one that is fruitful. This term is key in understanding the idea of Joseph being a prolific and productive figure. The use of "peret" here has the connotation of abundance and God's favor.

בּוֹעַת (bo'at) - Verb (participle, active):

Form: Verb, Qal participle (active voice), feminine singular.
Meaning: Being fruitful, bearing fruit.

Role: Modifies "peret" (fruitful bough), signifying ongoing action.

Grammatical Note: The participle "bo'at" conveys continuous action. It indicates that Joseph’s fruitfulness is not a one-time event but an ongoing characteristic of his life, signifying sustained blessing from God. The tense used here reflects the constant state of fruitfulness attributed to Joseph.

עַיִן (ayin) - Noun:

Form: Noun, feminine singular.

Meaning: Well, spring, fountain.
Role: Prepositional phrase “by a well.”

Grammatical Note: "Ayin" commonly refers to a spring or well, symbolizing a life-giving source of water. In a theological context, wells are often seen as sources of sustenance and blessing, just as Joseph is presented as a source of life for his family and the nation of Israel.
בְּעַל (be'al) - Preposition:

Form: Preposition.
Meaning: By, near, with.
Role: Part of the phrase “by a well,” describing the proximity or position.

Grammatical Note: The preposition "be’al" means "by" or "near" and suggests that Joseph’s fruitful bough is positioned next to a well, further symbolizing how his prosperity is deeply rooted and sustained by divine favor.

שׁוֹר (shor) - Noun:

Form: Noun, masculine singular.
Meaning: Wall, barricade.
Role: Object of the preposition "by."

Grammatical Note: The word "shor" here is translated as "wall" or "barricade," which can refer to an obstacle, a boundary, or a barrier. It is used metaphorically to describe a limit or boundary that Joseph’s descendants (or his fruitfulness) will transcend. This is a powerful image of overcoming obstacles.
בְּנֹתָיו (b'notav) - Noun:

Form: Noun, feminine plural.
Meaning: His daughters (in the sense of branches, or offspring).
Role: Subject complement.

Grammatical Note: "B'notav" (his daughters) comes from the root "bat" (daughter) and uses a possessive suffix ("-av," meaning "his").

While "branches" is the literal translation, the use of "daughters" here conveys the metaphorical extension of Joseph's fruitfulness. It reflects the multiplication of his lineage and influence beyond his direct descendants, akin to daughters spreading or reaching beyond traditional boundaries.

רָהֲבוּ (rah'bu) - Verb (perfect tense):

Form: Verb, Qal perfect 3rd plural.
Meaning: They run over, spread.

Role: Describes the action of the daughters (or branches) as they spread.

Grammatical Note: The verb "rah'bu" is in the perfect tense, signifying a completed action with ongoing implications. The use of the perfect tense suggests the branches have already spread, but the effects of this spreading continue. It emphasizes the expansive nature of Joseph's blessings and influence.

עַל (al) - Preposition:

Form: Preposition.
Meaning: Over, upon.
Role: Expresses the direction of the verb "run over," denoting the movement of the daughters (branches).

Grammatical Note: The preposition "al" indicates that the spreading or overflowing of the branches goes beyond boundaries, signifying Joseph’s prosperity and influence going past traditional limits.

הַגָּבֶל (hag'bel) - Noun:

Form: Noun, masculine singular.
Meaning: The wall, barrier.
Role: Object of the preposition "al" (over the wall).

Grammatical Note: The "gavel" (wall) again suggests boundaries or limits. It can be understood metaphorically as limits or obstacles that Joseph’s fruitfulness will exceed, signifying the transcendence of his blessings.

Interpretation:
Joseph as a Fruitful Bough: The metaphor of Joseph as a "fruitful bough" in Hebrew connects his character to abundance, growth, and prosperity. The verb בּוֹעַת (bo'at) in the participial form emphasizes an ongoing, active state of fruitfulness, not a momentary event. This is a blessing indicating that Joseph’s legacy is continuously fruitful.

Spiritual and Physical Blessing: The עַיִן (ayin) as "well" links the prosperity of Joseph to a life-giving source, emphasizing that his success and influence are sustained by divine intervention and providence.

Overcoming Boundaries: The verb רָהֲבוּ (rah'bu) implies that Joseph’s prosperity does not stop at natural boundaries or cultural walls, but extends beyond them. The use of בְּנֹתָיו (b'notav - daughters) further develops this idea of expansion beyond immediate family, highlighting a broader, collective growth.

Gender and Symbolism of "Daughters": The use of בְּנֹתָיו (b'notav) to denote "branches" (or "daughters") is an interesting linguistic and metaphorical choice. In Hebrew, בַּת (bat) typically means daughter, but here it symbolizes the offspring of Joseph, possibly as figurative branches of a vine, which reflects both spiritual and physical multiplication.

Theological Significance--
Divine Fruitfulness: Joseph's blessings in this passage are deeply tied to God’s covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, reflecting not only physical abundance but spiritual fruitfulness as well.

Expansion of God’s Kingdom: The extension of Joseph’s "branches" beyond the wall reflects the idea that God's blessings are not confined to Israel alone but will extend beyond its borders, foreshadowing the spread of God's kingdom and the eventual inclusion of the Gentiles.

[Jesus was that “beautiful and glorious branch,” which was in due time to spring from the stem of Jesse [Note: Isa_4:2; Isa_11:1.], the fruit whereof was to fill the whole earth [Note: Isa_27:6.]. It was not one tribe only, or two, that was to acknowledge him as their head, but all the tribes; yea, Gentiles as well as Jews, even all the ends of the earth: his fruit was to shake like the woods of Lebanon, and they, who should spring from him, were to be numerous as the piles of grass [Note: Psa_72:16.], the stars of heaven [Note: Gen_15:5.], and the sands upon the sea-shore [Note: Gen_22:17.]. And so abundantly has this prediction been already verified, that we may say of this Branch as the Psalmist did of that which typically represented it, “It has taken deep root, and filled the land: the hills are covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof are like the goodly cedars; it has sent forth its boughs unto the sea, and its branches unto the river [Note: Psa_80:9-11.].”]


Gen_49:22 There is a word play and a metaphor in this verse.
1. the Qal ACTIVE PARTICIPLE, BDB 826, KB 963, is repeated twice
2. in line 1 "bough" is literally "son," but in line 3 "bough" is "daughter"
These are agricultural metaphors for a vigorous growing and fruitful plant (cf. Deu_33:13-16).
Some commentators are doubtful of a switch from animal metaphors (cf. Gen_49:9; Gen_49:14; Gen_49:17; Gen_49:21; Gen_49:27, and the parallel in Deu_33:17) and change the imagery to a wild donkey on a hillside (cf. JPSOA, TEV). Poetry in an ancient language using rare words is a slippery thing!
Gen_49:22 has many questions with the Hebrew text!

--before I get slam dunked again.

J.
 
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amigo de christo

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You can go deeper, you know?

Verse (in Hebrew):
יוסף בֶּן־פֶּרֶת בּוֹעַת עַיִן בְּעַל־שׁוֹר בְּנֹתָיו רָהֲבוּ עַל־הַגָּבֶל
(Joseph is a fruitful bough, a fruitful bough by a well; his daughters run over the wall)

יוסף (Yosef) - Noun:

Form: Proper noun, masculine singular.
Meaning: Joseph.
Role: Subject of the sentence.
Grammatical Note: Joseph, the eleventh son of Jacob, is often portrayed as the favorite son and a model of God's providence. The name "Joseph" itself means "May He Add," reflecting his role as a key figure in the story of Israel’s preservation.

בֶּן (ben) - Noun:

Form: Noun, masculine singular.
Meaning: Son.
Role: Noun (subject of the phrase).
Grammatical Note: The word "ben" literally means "son" and can refer to a male child or offspring. Here, it indicates Joseph as the "son" of Israel, and the word serves as an integral part of the title "Joseph, the son" in the poetic blessing.

פֶּרֶת (peret) - Noun:

Form: Noun, feminine singular.
Meaning: A fruitful branch, or a bough.
Role: Subject complement in the nominative case, describing Joseph's attributes.

Grammatical Note: The term "peret" refers to a branch or a bough, particularly one that is fruitful. This term is key in understanding the idea of Joseph being a prolific and productive figure. The use of "peret" here has the connotation of abundance and God's favor.

בּוֹעַת (bo'at) - Verb (participle, active):

Form: Verb, Qal participle (active voice), feminine singular.
Meaning: Being fruitful, bearing fruit.

Role: Modifies "peret" (fruitful bough), signifying ongoing action.

Grammatical Note: The participle "bo'at" conveys continuous action. It indicates that Joseph’s fruitfulness is not a one-time event but an ongoing characteristic of his life, signifying sustained blessing from God. The tense used here reflects the constant state of fruitfulness attributed to Joseph.

עַיִן (ayin) - Noun:

Form: Noun, feminine singular.

Meaning: Well, spring, fountain.
Role: Prepositional phrase “by a well.”

Grammatical Note: "Ayin" commonly refers to a spring or well, symbolizing a life-giving source of water. In a theological context, wells are often seen as sources of sustenance and blessing, just as Joseph is presented as a source of life for his family and the nation of Israel.
בְּעַל (be'al) - Preposition:

Form: Preposition.
Meaning: By, near, with.
Role: Part of the phrase “by a well,” describing the proximity or position.

Grammatical Note: The preposition "be’al" means "by" or "near" and suggests that Joseph’s fruitful bough is positioned next to a well, further symbolizing how his prosperity is deeply rooted and sustained by divine favor.

שׁוֹר (shor) - Noun:

Form: Noun, masculine singular.
Meaning: Wall, barricade.
Role: Object of the preposition "by."

Grammatical Note: The word "shor" here is translated as "wall" or "barricade," which can refer to an obstacle, a boundary, or a barrier. It is used metaphorically to describe a limit or boundary that Joseph’s descendants (or his fruitfulness) will transcend. This is a powerful image of overcoming obstacles.
בְּנֹתָיו (b'notav) - Noun:

Form: Noun, feminine plural.
Meaning: His daughters (in the sense of branches, or offspring).
Role: Subject complement.

Grammatical Note: "B'notav" (his daughters) comes from the root "bat" (daughter) and uses a possessive suffix ("-av," meaning "his").

While "branches" is the literal translation, the use of "daughters" here conveys the metaphorical extension of Joseph's fruitfulness. It reflects the multiplication of his lineage and influence beyond his direct descendants, akin to daughters spreading or reaching beyond traditional boundaries.

רָהֲבוּ (rah'bu) - Verb (perfect tense):

Form: Verb, Qal perfect 3rd plural.
Meaning: They run over, spread.

Role: Describes the action of the daughters (or branches) as they spread.

Grammatical Note: The verb "rah'bu" is in the perfect tense, signifying a completed action with ongoing implications. The use of the perfect tense suggests the branches have already spread, but the effects of this spreading continue. It emphasizes the expansive nature of Joseph's blessings and influence.

עַל (al) - Preposition:

Form: Preposition.
Meaning: Over, upon.
Role: Expresses the direction of the verb "run over," denoting the movement of the daughters (branches).

Grammatical Note: The preposition "al" indicates that the spreading or overflowing of the branches goes beyond boundaries, signifying Joseph’s prosperity and influence going past traditional limits.

הַגָּבֶל (hag'bel) - Noun:

Form: Noun, masculine singular.
Meaning: The wall, barrier.
Role: Object of the preposition "al" (over the wall).

Grammatical Note: The "gavel" (wall) again suggests boundaries or limits. It can be understood metaphorically as limits or obstacles that Joseph’s fruitfulness will exceed, signifying the transcendence of his blessings.

Interpretation:
Joseph as a Fruitful Bough: The metaphor of Joseph as a "fruitful bough" in Hebrew connects his character to abundance, growth, and prosperity. The verb בּוֹעַת (bo'at) in the participial form emphasizes an ongoing, active state of fruitfulness, not a momentary event. This is a blessing indicating that Joseph’s legacy is continuously fruitful.

Spiritual and Physical Blessing: The עַיִן (ayin) as "well" links the prosperity of Joseph to a life-giving source, emphasizing that his success and influence are sustained by divine intervention and providence.

Overcoming Boundaries: The verb רָהֲבוּ (rah'bu) implies that Joseph’s prosperity does not stop at natural boundaries or cultural walls, but extends beyond them. The use of בְּנֹתָיו (b'notav - daughters) further develops this idea of expansion beyond immediate family, highlighting a broader, collective growth.

Gender and Symbolism of "Daughters": The use of בְּנֹתָיו (b'notav) to denote "branches" (or "daughters") is an interesting linguistic and metaphorical choice. In Hebrew, בַּת (bat) typically means daughter, but here it symbolizes the offspring of Joseph, possibly as figurative branches of a vine, which reflects both spiritual and physical multiplication.

Theological Significance--
Divine Fruitfulness: Joseph's blessings in this passage are deeply tied to God’s covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, reflecting not only physical abundance but spiritual fruitfulness as well.

Expansion of God’s Kingdom: The extension of Joseph’s "branches" beyond the wall reflects the idea that God's blessings are not confined to Israel alone but will extend beyond its borders, foreshadowing the spread of God's kingdom and the eventual inclusion of the Gentiles.

[Jesus was that “beautiful and glorious branch,” which was in due time to spring from the stem of Jesse [Note: Isa_4:2; Isa_11:1.], the fruit whereof was to fill the whole earth [Note: Isa_27:6.]. It was not one tribe only, or two, that was to acknowledge him as their head, but all the tribes; yea, Gentiles as well as Jews, even all the ends of the earth: his fruit was to shake like the woods of Lebanon, and they, who should spring from him, were to be numerous as the piles of grass [Note: Psa_72:16.], the stars of heaven [Note: Gen_15:5.], and the sands upon the sea-shore [Note: Gen_22:17.]. And so abundantly has this prediction been already verified, that we may say of this Branch as the Psalmist did of that which typically represented it, “It has taken deep root, and filled the land: the hills are covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof are like the goodly cedars; it has sent forth its boughs unto the sea, and its branches unto the river [Note: Psa_80:9-11.].”]


Gen_49:22 There is a word play and a metaphor in this verse.
1. the Qal ACTIVE PARTICIPLE, BDB 826, KB 963, is repeated twice
2. in line 1 "bough" is literally "son," but in line 3 "bough" is "daughter"
These are agricultural metaphors for a vigorous growing and fruitful plant (cf. Deu_33:13-16).
Some commentators are doubtful of a switch from animal metaphors (cf. Gen_49:9; Gen_49:14; Gen_49:17; Gen_49:21; Gen_49:27, and the parallel in Deu_33:17) and change the imagery to a wild donkey on a hillside (cf. JPSOA, TEV). Poetry in an ancient language using rare words is a slippery thing!
Gen_49:22 has many questions with the Hebrew text!

--before I get slam dunked again.

J.
the world and the worldy often treat the sheep and the truth they do bring as a basket ball
and non stop try and slam dunk them out of existance if they could .
Now one thing i do know is this . Can this world kill a christain . WHY YES .
But can it kill the TRUTH . NO SIR and at the last day , many are gonna find out
WHY JESUS warned and said , MY WORDS SHALL BE YOUR JUDGE on the last day . As they in terror
realize , OH MAN we twisted and omitted them , but on that day it will be too late for repentance
and the word DEPART from ME shall be heard to all who did so and had not repented of the evil they had done .
We got folks preaching another gospel my friend
We got folks treating JESUS own words as though they be a lie and the words of men TRUTH .
We got folks in dire dire and i mean dire deadly danger . And when i say folks , I ALREADY KNOW THE WORLD IS LOST
I means the folks who even LIP HIS NAME .
 
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amigo de christo

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Some of HIS own words are , I AM ALPHA AND OMEGA , the FIRST and the last .
I sure would not want to DENY ONE WHO SAID THAT . OR HIS GOSPEL OF YE MUST BELIEVE TO BE SAVED .
 
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Johann

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the world and the worldy often treat the sheep and the truth they do bring as a basket ball
and non stop try and slam dunk them out of existance if they could .
Now one thing i do know is this . Can this world kill a christain . WHY YES .
But can it kill the TRUTH . NO SIR and at the last day , many are gonna find out
WHY JESUS warned and said , MY WORDS SHALL BE YOUR JUDGE on the last day . As they in terror
realize , OH MAN we twisted and omitted them , but on that day it will be too late for repentance
and the word DEPART from ME shall be heard to all who did so and had not repented of the evil they had done .
We got folks preaching another gospel my friend
We got folks treating JESUS own words as though they be a lie and the words of men TRUTH .
We got folks in dire dire and i mean dire deadly danger . And when i say folks , I ALREADY KNOW THE WORLD IS LOST
I means the folks who even LIP HIS NAME .
Should I agree with you that would be considered as "goading" or "flaming" and I had enough of that, I was expounding on
Gen 49:22 and Joseph.

Shalom brother.

J.
 

amigo de christo

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WHO here wants to KNOWINGLY CALL GOD A LIAR .
Two things . THose who fail to beleive JESUS IS THE CHRIST DO CALL GOD A LIAR .
and , and , Many also try and say
call the alpha and omega a liar . THEY SAY HEY JESUS , I KNOW YOU SAID YOU WERE
BUT WE SAY YA AINT . They call JESUS A LIAR . THEY CALL GOD a LIAR
Now JESUS said I AM ALPHA and OMEGA , FIRST and the last .
SO , LETS see who wants to call HIM A LIAR NOW . You really wanna call GOD A LIAR .
 
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CadyandZoe

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And, I've been addressing your counter-arguments. You said that the reason why the apostles were instructed by Jesus to baptize "in the name (authority) of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit", is because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit don't contradict each other in what They teach, not because the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are God.
Not exactly. My claim is that we can't go to Matthew 28:19 to prove that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. We can't use that verse because Jesus isn't making that point there.
So, you still have to find the real reason for why Jesus instructed His apostles to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Many people misunderstand the Great Commission, believing it to be primarily a command to baptize. However, this interpretation is incorrect; the Great Commission is actually a directive to make disciples. Baptism serves as the initiation into the process of teaching. Therefore, when the Apostles make disciples, they must emphasize to the new believers that they are not disciples of the Apostles themselves but rather disciples of Jesus.

I'll help you by first asking, if the Father, the Son, and the Holy aren't God, then Who are They?
I don't understand your question because you seem to be confusing "what" a person is with "who" they are. Are you asking what they are or who they are?
 

Marvelloustime

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WHO here wants to KNOWINGLY CALL GOD A LIAR .
Two things . THose who fail to beleive JESUS IS THE CHRIST DO CALL GOD A LIAR .
and , and , Many also try and say
call the alpha and omega a liar . THEY SAY HEY JESUS , I KNOW YOU SAID YOU WERE
BUT WE SAY YA AINT . They call JESUS A LIAR . THEY CALL GOD a LIAR
Now JESUS said I AM ALPHA and OMEGA , FIRST and the last .
SO , LETS see who wants to call HIM A LIAR NOW . You really wanna call GOD A LIAR .
@amigo de christo
save-image.pngsave-image.png
 

amigo de christo

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No. Scripture says there is only God the Father. Trinitarians twist this to mean what it does not say.

Knowing you are doing the twisting, you do what Liberal progressives do, project. You accuse your opponent of what you yourself are doing.
Rather odd its not me following the liberal progressive move of interfaith .
Its even the evangelical realm itself too . I tried to warn us my friend .
You are following and supporting a massive progressive liberal interfaith . But i guess since trump
and vance support it , IT must not be liberal progressive . You all are being decieved .
 
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face2face

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You can go deeper, you know?

Expansion of God’s Kingdom: The extension of Joseph’s "branches" beyond the wall reflects the idea that God's blessings are not confined to Israel alone but will extend beyond its borders, foreshadowing the spread of God's kingdom and the eventual inclusion of the Gentiles.

[Jesus was that “beautiful and glorious branch,” which was in due time to spring from the stem of Jesse [Note: Isa_4:2; Isa_11:1.], the fruit whereof was to fill the whole earth [Note: Isa_27:6.]. It was not one tribe only, or two, that was to acknowledge him as their head, but all the tribes; yea, Gentiles as well as Jews, even all the ends of the earth: his fruit was to shake like the woods of Lebanon, and they, who should spring from him, were to be numerous as the piles of grass [Note: Psa_72:16.], the stars of heaven [Note: Gen_15:5.], and the sands upon the sea-shore [Note: Gen_22:17.]. And so abundantly has this prediction been already verified, that we may say of this Branch as the Psalmist did of that which typically represented it, “It has taken deep root, and filled the land: the hills are covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof are like the goodly cedars; it has sent forth its boughs unto the sea, and its branches unto the river [Note: Psa_80:9-11.].”]


Gen_49:22 There is a word play and a metaphor in this verse.
1. the Qal ACTIVE PARTICIPLE, BDB 826, KB 963, is repeated twice
2. in line 1 "bough" is literally "son," but in line 3 "bough" is "daughter"
These are agricultural metaphors for a vigorous growing and fruitful plant (cf. Deu_33:13-16).
Some commentators are doubtful of a switch from animal metaphors (cf. Gen_49:9; Gen_49:14; Gen_49:17; Gen_49:21; Gen_49:27, and the parallel in Deu_33:17) and change the imagery to a wild donkey on a hillside (cf. JPSOA, TEV). Poetry in an ancient language using rare words is a slippery thing!
Gen_49:22 has many questions with the Hebrew text!

--before I get slam dunked again.

J.
Tell me Johann, how is it you can post this about Joseph and not see the true Christ?

It is a remarkable prophecy Johann! of the spreading influence of Christ, typically expressed in the sons of Joseph. His two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, developed into two tribes, in contrast to the single tribe developed from each of the other sons of Jacob, so that in that sense, it could be said that the "branches" of Joseph extended beyond the wall.

Again, those tribes were located east and west of the Jordan, with two portions given to Manasseh, the firstborn according to birth, also suggest the figure of a spreading vine. But the full force of the prophecy is discovered in the antitypical Joseph, the Lord Jesus Christ. He declared to the disciples: "I am the vine, ye are the branches" (John 15:5). In that relationship, the feminine gender for "branches" in the verse before us, is appropriate, for the Lord's disciples comprise both his off spring (Isa. 53:10; Heb. 2:13) and his bride.

As the "first Adam" could describe his "bride" as his offspring "bone of his bones, and flesh of his flesh" (Gen. 2:23), so can the "second Adam" of his bride (Eph. 5:25; John 17:21). *Jesus cannot be a God and He cannot marry the Saints! This is an act between a glorified MAN and a glorified WOMAN!

@APAK @Wrangler

The branches of the Christ-vine have spread "over the wall," for they have extended beyond the limits of Israel unto the Gentiles. Christ has "broken down the middle wall of partition" and has "reconciled both (believing Jews and Gentiles) unto God in one body" (the vine, Eph. 2:14-16). In order to effect this purpose, Yahweh strengthened the Christ-branch, and planted it to form the vine of His choice (see Ps. 80:14-17). As a vine is susceptible to transplanting, so the Israel-vine will be transplanted into the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 11:24).

So while you thought you were going deeper (and you did) it was not deep enough to capture the Whole Plan & Purpose of God through the wonderful type of Joseph

F2F

ps I was going to ask you if you had something on that for @MatthewG to learn - well I think between the two of us he has something rather beautiful while he's feeling unwell.
 
J

Johann

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Tell me Johann, how is it you can post this about Joseph and not see the true Christ?

It is a remarkable prophecy Johann! of the spreading influence of Christ, typically expressed in the sons of Joseph. His two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, developed into two tribes, in contrast to the single tribe developed from each of the other sons of Jacob, so that in that sense, it could be said that the "branches" of Joseph extended beyond the wall.

Again, those tribes were located east and west of the Jordan, with two portions given to Manasseh, the firstborn according to birth, also suggest the figure of a spreading vine. But the full force of the prophecy is discovered in the antitypical Joseph, the Lord Jesus Christ. He declared to the disciples: "I am the vine, ye are the branches" (John 15:5). In that relationship, the feminine gender for "branches" in the verse before us, is appropriate, for the Lord's disciples comprise both his off spring (Isa. 53:10; Heb. 2:13) and his bride.

As the "first Adam" could describe his "bride" as his offspring "bone of his bones, and flesh of his flesh" (Gen. 2:23), so can the "second Adam" of his bride (Eph. 5:25; John 17:21). *Jesus cannot be a God and He cannot marry the Saints! This is an act between a glorified MAN and a glorified WOMAN!

@APAK @Wrangler

The branches of the Christ-vine have spread "over the wall," for they have extended beyond the limits of Israel unto the Gentiles. Christ has "broken down the middle wall of partition" and has "reconciled both (believing Jews and Gentiles) unto God in one body" (the vine, Eph. 2:14-16). In order to effect this purpose, Yahweh strengthened the Christ-branch, and planted it to form the vine of His choice (see Ps. 80:14-17). As a vine is susceptible to transplanting, so the Israel-vine will be transplanted into the Lord Jesus Christ (Rom. 11:24).

So while you thought you were going deeper (and you did) it was not deep enough to capture the Whole Plan & Purpose of God through the wonderful type of Joseph

F2F

ps I was going to ask you if you had something on that for @MatthewG to learn - well I think between the two of us he has something rather beautiful while he's feeling unwell.
You reckon his theology is Scriptural?

J.
 

face2face

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"And the arms of his hands were made strong"

Continuning the prophetical import did you notice @Wrangler & @APAK @MatthewG @Johann

The word "strong" in this context is pazaz, meaning "to spring" or "to be active." soome translate "the arms of his hands were made strong and active." This indicates that Joseph derived from the God of Jacob the ability to match his enemies and successfully wage war against them, despite being outnumbered.

The strength and activity that characterized the work of the Lord, the antitype of Joseph, came from His divine parentage. While Joseph, the type, had natural potential for spirituality, the Lord Jesus, the antitype, possessed supernatural potential. Both, through God, triumphed over their respective enemies in their conquests. (See Psalm 11:2; Psalm 80:17).

"By the hands of the mighty God of Jacob"

Notice that "God" is in italics, indicating there is no equivalent word in the Hebrew. The word "mighty" is abiyr, which is better rendered as "Mighty One," as in the Revised Version. It comes from the root abar, meaning "to be strong" or "to soar," and is even translated as "fly" in Job 39:26. The title Abiyr of Jacob refers to the Lofty One, whose strength is sufficient for every need and is high above the limitations of flesh. Like the soaring eagle, whose sharp vision takes in a wide perspective, Abiyr can see beyond human vision and provide for all of man's needs.

Let all who suffer, who are oppressed by the opposition of others, or who are burdened by their own shortcomings, lift themselves up to seek the Abiyr (Lofty One) of Jacob (see Colossians 3:1). From His elevated position, He sees beyond our present difficulties and is able to help accordingly.

You see Johann, here is something you will never be able to refute as long as you live!

"From thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel"

These remarkable words reveal that Jacob saw the coming Redeemer, the antitype of his beloved son, Joseph, as both Son of Man and Son of God. As the former, he made mention of him as the Shiloh, the Lawgiver of Judah, the great Ruler of the tribe whom his brethren shall praise (Gen. 49:8-10); as the latter, he saw him as the great antitypical Joseph, the Son of God, who would con quer his enemies by the sword of the spir it, and the arrow of truth. The divine begettal of the Lord is expressed in the line before us: "From thence (from Abiyr or the Lofty One) is the shepherd, the stone of Israel".

Regarding the Lord's fleshly descent, Paul’s words are clear and highlight the blessing upon Judah: "It is evident that our Lord sprang out of Judah" (Hebrews 7:14).

"For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah, and in connection with that tribe Moses said nothing about priests."

In terms of the Lord’s heavenly origin, and as an illustration of the blessing upon Joseph, Gabriel told Mary, "The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee; therefore, also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God" (Luke 1:35).

God's Power gave conception in Mary of the tribe of Judah - Jesus' identity and person will forever be "For it is evident that our Lord was descended from Judah"

F2F
 
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face2face

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You reckon his theology is Scriptural?

J.
The work you posted on this section, yes.

I'm not sure if you read your own post?

[Jesus was (is) that “beautiful and glorious branch,” which was in due time to spring from the stem of Jesse [Note: Isa_4:2; Isa_11:1.], the fruit whereof was to fill the whole earth [Note: Isa_27:6.]. It was not one tribe only, or two, that was to acknowledge him as their head, but all the tribes; yea, Gentiles as well as Jews, even all the ends of the earth: his fruit was to shake like the woods of Lebanon, and they, who should spring from him, were to be numerous as the piles of grass [Note: Psa_72:16.], the stars of heaven [Note: Gen_15:5.], and the sands upon the sea-shore [Note: Gen_22:17.]. And so abundantly has this prediction been already verified, that we may say of this Branch as the Psalmist did of that which typically represented it, “It has taken deep root, and filled the land: the hills are covered with the shadow of it, and the boughs thereof are like the goodly cedars; it has sent forth its boughs unto the sea, and its branches unto the river [Note: Psa_80:9-11.].”]

Johann, if as you believe Jesus sprang from the stem of Jess, then you must be lead to the true Christ (not a trinitarian Christ!1737151182791.png
Ask the right questions of the Word!

F2F
 

ProDeo

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If you ever want to learn how to read Scripture correctly start a private conversation and I'll show you anytime.

Thanks for the invitation.

I think that in the meantime everything that needed to be said is said.

I take a break from the discussion.

Be well.
 
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