Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[RedFan]

Hebrews 2:11 is further proof text that Jesus is NOT God, which is why Trinitarians must get the shackles of logic off their doctrinal back.

The Law of Mutual Exclusion, the bedrock of epistemology, along with The Law of Identity, disproves the trinity.
P1. God is our Father (not our brother).
P2. Jesus is our brother (not our father).
C. Jesus is NOT God.

To be fair, neither P1 nor P2 are meant in a biological sense. Deriving the conclusion that Jesus is not God from these two non-biologcal propositions needs a bit of explanation. It's easy to see that biologically speaking, the same person cannot be both your father and your brother. But we are not speaking biologically here.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Aunty and @CadyandZoe,

Missed you two yesterday when i had two jw's over my house and we read from the Holy Scriptures TOGETHER.

We had a GREAT time reading about the Savior and LIGHT of the world = the Lord Jesus Christ
We also discovered how the Lord Jesus Christ instructs us to pray to Him.

I'm glad you were blessed.

For the record, I am not a JW.

 

[Wrangler]

To be fair, neither P1 nor P2 are meant in a biological sense.

Then to be fair, in some sense, Jesus is NOT God. (You know the validity of the syllogism does not depend on biology. Saying so is just a diversion.)
P1. God is X.
P2. Jesus is Not-X.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

 

[Wrangler]

needs a bit of explanation.

False. Morality needs context, not logic. That’s its insightful power!

 

[CadyandZoe]

False. Morality needs context, not logic. That’s its insightful power!

This is why the Bible is better than the Koran, in my opinion. The Bible is filled with narratives that place morality into context.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Ghost is a terrible translation but you are correct!

If you think its led you into beliving the Trinity then you would need to rethink what spirit has done this....

Ghost is an old english word for Spirit... relax, it's accurate

So then, you consider the writings of the Apostle John... to be lies then?

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

Unless one is to believe some things in the Bible are... lies.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

This is why the Bible is better than the Koran, in my opinion.

It's not just your opinion ... the koran is garbage

 

[Scott Downey]

As I added to my last post, it was a common style of Hebrew writing but more accurately how God delivered the story; starting with an introductory outline summation then going back and filling in details as Gen. 1 and 2 are delivered. We see false doctrines generated from Gen. 1& 2 by their lack of comprehension ( spiritual discernment). We have half the Body of Christ thinking there were two different stories and time frames of creation and adopting Darwinian evolutionary ideas and walla, Theistic Evolution. Some chapters in Revelation are not in chronological order either - which is why many get confused about that book - oy vey.

I have noticed a few odd breaks in verse numbers, but without the numbering system, would be hard to talk about scripture.
Mostly these are books and were meant to be read without any artificial break points. It just flowed from the writers and those scribes wrote down what the prophets spoke. Since it reads so well, it was definitely of God. And nice job done by translators, who were also inspired. Although I don't read some versions as I find them off putting.
But yeah, none of the verse breaks were ever intended in the original writings. It was just all one book.

Who divided the Bible into chapters and verses? Why and when was it done? | GotQuestions.org

Who divided the Bible into chapters and verses? Why and when was it done? What is the value in the Bible having chapter and verse divisions?

www.gotquestions.org

When the books of the Bible were originally written, they did not contain chapter or verse references. The Bible was divided into chapters and verses to help us find Scriptures more quickly and easily. It is much easier to find "John chapter 3, verse 16" than it is to find "for God so loved the world..." In a few places, chapter breaks are poorly placed and as a result divide content that should flow together. Overall, though, the chapter and verse divisions are very helpful.

The chapter divisions commonly used today were developed by Stephen Langton, an Archbishop of Canterbury. Langton put the modern chapter divisions into place in around A.D. 1227. The Wycliffe English Bible of 1382 was the first Bible to use this chapter pattern. Since the Wycliffe Bible, nearly all Bible translations have followed Langton’s chapter divisions.

The Hebrew Old Testament was divided into verses by a Jewish rabbi by the name of Nathan in A.D. 1448. Robert Estienne, who was also known as Stephanus, was the first to divide the New Testament into standard numbered verses, in 1555. Stephanus essentially used Nathan’s verse divisions for the Old Testament. Since that time, beginning with the Geneva Bible, the chapter and verse divisions employed by Stephanus have been accepted into nearly all the Bible versions.

 

[Wrangler]

1 John 5:7

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

Ever read modern translations of 1 John 5:7? Ever read the translation error for this verse?

Don’t use error to base your doctrine on.

 

[Aunty Jane]

The idea that God orchestrates history in order to achieve an aim is found in passages like Ephesians and Hebrews, among others.

I think you are missing the point......God gave Adam a choice, which indicates free will. Yet the choices he had were simple at the beginning......what was the purpose of the TKGE, so that God put it there in the first place? Adam was told specifically that this tree was God’s property on earth...the one thing he claimed as his own, which meant that this tree represented God’s Universal Sovereignty......his right to set parameters around the use of free will......so it was only “free” inside of those parameters......again, what were his choices? Eat and “surely die”? Or simply obey and “live forever”? The “tree of life” was there to ensure that living forever would be a reality......all they had to be was obedient to the commands of their Creator in order to have access to this tree.

Once the choice was made to disobey, (and it is revealed in the circumstances under which it was made, that one of God’s spirit sons was involved as well).....showing that the first rebel was not human. That is what set in motion the response from God to those choices....both satan’s and Adam’s.

Job tells us that the angels were observing God’s material creation with great interest and were in joyful applause at the finished product.

Job 38:4-7...God asked Job.....
“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding, Who set its measurements? Since you know. Or who stretched the line on it? “On what were its bases sunk? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy? (NASB)

What was there about the creation of lower intelligent creatures that tempted one of them to hijack God’s purpose and use it for his own selfish advantage?

Did God plan that? Or were God’s spirit sons also given free will, with the potential for abuse?

God acted only once in creation itself.....after that he reacted to the choices made by his free willed “sons”.

Yahweh is the Father of all his sons, but even a perfect parent can have rebellious children. Free will was a gift, but abuse turns it into a curse. What God allowed was the greatest object lesson in history....one that will be recorded for posterity, once it is finished......and we still have a thousand years until it’s completion. All of God’s children will benefit from seeing first hand where disobedience takes them......experience is the greatest teacher, as we demonstrate every day that we cannot just be told to obey God....we have to fully understand WHY we must do so. This lesson will have eternal benefits for all creation.

Ephesians 1:7-10 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.
Here, Paul indicates that God managed the fullness of time so that Jesus would eventually become the epitome of human existence and the head of all authorities. In other words, Unlike some religions that understand God to be a passive observer of history, Paul believes that God takes an adequate role the history of mankind, God fully guiding history toward a goal.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

Yes, after the fall, we have the implementation of a strategy that God foreknew, having all contingencies ready for whatever choices his free willed children made.

The “administration” is his Kingdom under Christ and his “saints” (chosen ones) to bring everything back to square one.....what God purposes in the beginning is completed at the end......what God starts, he finishes...perfectly. (Isa 55:11)

 

[Aunty Jane]

He made the world.
Hidden behind the term "world" is the Greek word "aiwnas" meaning "ages." Paul indicates that God created the ages, which not only understands God's role as the creator of space and matter but also the creator of events. Adam was created to sin so that Jesus could become the savior of the world.

There is no doubt that God operates in “ages” or periods of time in which he completes stages of his purpose....the creation account attests to that. Each creative “day” was assigned specific works and each was carried out successfully and to his satisfaction within that time frame. God does his work in increments as he is highly organised in everything he does.

Yes. Paul discusses redemption in Romans 8, where he mentions that God subjected the world to futility, so creation itself looks forward to its own redemption.

God subjected the human world to futility “on the basis of hope”.....the object lesson would seem futile to many as the life programmed into us was not the life we had to live......everything in us screams that it’s all wrong!......including death....because we were programmed for everlasting life in peace and security, in paradise....but the life we got was the complete opposite!

Without the hope of God achieving his end goal, the futility ends in the death of us all for now. But how does it end ultimately? What God purposed in the beginning, is achieved in the end......lessons learned, and all rebels and those who love wickedness will be removed from both realms where God’s children serve his interests rather than their own. No rebel will ever be able to derail God’s purpose for his creation again. Precedents are set so that any who think that their will is more important that God’s, will never be allowed to continue to influence others.

The lake of fire will never go out of existence as a receptacle for them.....nothing in the lake of fire survives.

Since death is an aspect of futility and God subjected the creation to futility, then God designed death into creation.

What a very smart God did, was create beings who have free will, but whom he could control.
Free will can be either a blessing or a curse, depending on which way it is used or abused.
Every evil on this planet is the result of the abuse of free will. Death is the only thing that can combat that unfortunate choice if it is abused. So even the heavenly beings, even though they are not subject to death as we humans are, can still be eliminated from existence if they choose to disobey as satan did.

In his wisdom, God used the rebellion to teach a much bigger life lesson.....one that would have far reaching effects into the future. The fact that it is taking so long is a reflection of who needs the life lessons the most.....us puny humans, (who can only do damage down here on earth) or the powerful spirit beings in heaven who can wreak havoc on a much larger scale? This lesson is played out in Universal time, not earth time. (2 Peter 3:8)

surely die
"surely die" literally means "dying you shall die". Whether Adam was good or bad, whether he was obedient or disobedient, Adam was going to die physically. God means to say that Adam would experience evil, suffering, heartache, disappointment, and other negative things such as these his entire life until he dies.

Not so.....death was only mentioned as a punishment for disobedience.....living forever in mortal flesh was what God offered them....and he provided the means to do so. We are not programmed for death...it is as foreign to us now as it was when Cain killed his brother. Intense grief follows the death of a loved one.....that is not natural.

The presence of the Tree of Life is clear evidence that eternal existence was not inherent in nature but sustained by God. As soon as God removed the "Tree," death and futility became a reality.

Yes, we were created as mortal beings with all the things that sustain our lives thoughtfully provided in abundance. Creation itself is proof that this earth was supposed to be a beautiful place, and we are designed to live in paradise.
Where do people go for their vacations? Is it not to all the paradisaic places on earth that profit off tourism? Paradise was never meant to make selfish people rich.....but it depends on the leanings of the human heart to want to go there even for a short (but expensive) vacation.

There is a bigger picture, but you seem stuck on a few faulty pixels that don’t reveal it.....widen out in your view...the big picture makes so much sense. What God purposed for us in the beginning is restored in the end, thanks to a God who loved us enough to send his precious son to rescue us from the disobedience of our first parents.

Imagine if Eve had simply told the devil to ‘get lost’......imagine if no one had ever eaten the forbidden fruit? What then?

 

[face2face]

Twinkling of an eye just signifies instantaneous, that is the point I was trying to make. Being born again is the necessary starting point and it happens in a moment of time, instantaneously, when we receive Him we receive faith that is not of our own mind but is of Him, of His Spirit, and we are changed....we receive revelation of Christ and experience a spiritual change and a 180 degree change in the direction of our life. That is when Christ first "apprehends" us. From that starting point we begin to grow and "seek to apprehend that for which Christ apprehended us".

I would agree if you were speaking to Saul to Paul but not Simon to Peter. Plenty of evidence to show this. As I said, not a one size fits all!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Ghost is an old english word for Spirit... relax, it's accurate

So then, you consider the writings of the Apostle John... to be lies then?

1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Pretty hard to explain away something scripture clearly tells us which is... One is Three, and the Three are One.

Unless one is to believe some things in the Bible are... lies.

I'll let you do your own homework on 1 John 5:7

First thing to do is to look up the translators note in the NET - do this then come back to me

F2F

 

[face2face]

Your claim of 3 in heaven is not supported the text. Please elaborate so the point you are making about 1 Thessalonians 5:23 can be flushed out.

It makes me smile when Trinitarian believers see threes and out of the gates...off and racing!

 

[APAK]

Are you saying that the early church fathers didn't know their own language?

I would says its more that their own language. They reinvented new meanings from words of their own language to suit their own created doctrines. And this word monogenes simply means: came in to existence for a source, or created, or made, came forth from a creator. And adding ideas with new meanings of this word, such as being unique, maybe true although its not the meaning of the word. And especially does not mean not-made unmade.
Abraham has a only begotten son, Isaac.
Adam would be considered technically a begotten human being by God, and made not by/with a women, as the 2nd Adam.

I leave you with another Kiwi as another reference here..

"The Nicene creed was written by men and for men with political motives so it is not worth questioning their reasoning on the ‘not made’ statement."

Jesus was begotten of God in terms of his birth as recorded in the gospels but he also had to earn his title as ‘son of God’ by declaring God’s purpose in his life of righteousness (Romans 1:4).

When Jesus was baptised there was a declaration from heaven “This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased.” It was his action in being baptised (to symbolise his death and resurrection) which prompted the edict from above.

‘Begotten’ is nothing to do with the teachings of men about the supposed triune nature of God and Jesus.

They really are father and son."

 

[face2face]

Holy Spirit and God are the same

True though I would place God first in the sentence and the Holy Spirit is God's Power.
F2F

 

[RedFan]

Then to be fair, in some sense, Jesus is NOT God. (You know the validity of the syllogism does not depend on biology. Saying so is just a diversion.)
P1. God is X.
P2. Jesus is Not-X.
C. Jesus is NOT God.

I'm not following you here. Seems as though you are saying "Whatever God is, Jesus is not that." Well, that begs the question.

 

[RedFan]

False. Morality needs context, not logic. That’s its insightful power!

Once again I am not following you. I say

To be fair, neither P1 nor P2 are meant in a biological sense. Deriving the conclusion that Jesus is not God from these two non-biologcal propositions needs a bit of explanation.

and you bring morality into the mix. Where are you going here?

 

[face2face]

I'm not following you here. Seems as though you are saying "Whatever God is, Jesus is not that." Well, that begs the question.

Seperate Persons; Seperate Beings - One Mind and Purpose.

"And his delight shall be in the fear of the Lord". Isaiah 11:3

It's impossible for God to Fear Himself!

F2F

 

[Lizbeth]

They really are father and son."

If the Son isn't God, the Father isn't either.