Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Grailhunter]

God said Jesus was born of a virgin... those questioning the truthfulness of God's Word are separating themselves from the Lord by accusing Him of being a liar. That ends badly for such peoples.

Reilly

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Agree, but many today are not that far from making the step toward the Wisdom of God.

It's all right there in the written Word of God... which is Truth

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

It takes submitting to the Holy Ghost to get in to the Lord's Wisdom.

 

[Brakelite]

His death quite proves Jesus is not God because God cannot die. And there is only God the Father in Scripture.

The Son of God did die. You are in denial as to Who the Son's Father is, and what the Father is capable of accomplishing through His Son. That is denial of the many scriptures testifying to the nature of the Son. The 'express image' of the Father cannot be applied to a solely human being. The real question to be answered here, "is Jesus Christ truly the Son of God, or is He merely a metaphor"?

Some people, if they imagine a time when nothing existed except for God, will, in their mind, see God alone in an otherwise vast uninhabited and empty universe, but is this a correct view? Did not God create the universe? Did he not create everything, including time and space? What then did exist - if we take away everything that God created? The answer is - only God. In other words, when we remove everything created by God, all that will remain is God. This was when Christ was begotten of God.

Everything created by God is external to Him. This means that Christ was brought forth (begotten) of God prior to anything existing externally of God. This bringing forth of the Son therefore, was an internal action of God. It was not an act of creation (creating something that has an existence outside of God). Christ was begotten of God – not created. Christ therefore, because of this internal action of God, can only be God. God cannot bring forth of Himself that which is not God. Christ therefore, before the creation of anything, (Himself being the Vehicle through Whom all things came into existence) must have enjoyed an identity of essence (substance) with the Father.

Imagine two windows (as in MS operating system). In the window on the left is God before anything was created. There is nothing else in it. God completely fills the window.

In the window on the right is what God has created. There is nothing in it because God has not yet created anything. Christ now comes forth out of God (is begotten of God). What now is in the right window? Nothing - because all things external to God were created by Christ. Nothing yet has been created.

So what we have in the left window is still only God. Nothing exists external to him because only things created by Him are external to Him.

 

[Brakelite]

Begotten means created.

Are you saying that the early church fathers didn't know their own language?

 

[face2face]

It's all right there in the written Word of God... which is Truth

Jesus said the Holy Ghost would lead us in to ALL Truth (John 16:13),
and Jesus said God's Word IS Truth (John 17:17)

It takes submitting to the Holy Ghost to get in to the Lord's Wisdom.

Ghost is a terrible translation but you are correct!

If you think its led you into beliving the Trinity then you would need to rethink what spirit has done this....

 

[Scott Downey]

As Revelation is not in chronological order, other passages are confused to be as well.
In reference to Gen. 10:5:
"As is true with many accounts in Scripture, the events are not listed in chronological order. Genesis tells of the disbursement of the different language groups throughout the world. It is a broad outline of where the various language groups settled. Genesis 11, on the other hand, explains how these different languages came about-through the events at the tower of Babel. Thus we have no contradiction." Don Stewart
There was one language for at least the first 2k years.

I had said earlier that the timeline shows Gen 11 is actually within Gen 10.
Gen 11 just goes into greater details regarding the larger picture of Gen 10.

Other thing is God did not put chapter and verse numbers to the text, that showed up later when a man organized the scriptures into chapter and verse around 1200 ad and even later.

Where Did the Chapter and Verse Numbers of the Bible Originate?

The chapters of the Bible are usually credited to a 13th-century British scholar named Stephen Langton, who eventually became the Catholic archbishop of Canterb...

www.catholic.com

Question:​

Where did the chapter and verse numbers of the Bible originate? Were they in the original manuscripts?

Answer:​

The chapters of the Bible are usually credited to a 13th-century British scholar named Stephen Langton, who eventually became the Catholic archbishop of Canterbury. Langton is better known for his involvement in the conflict over the creation of the Magna Carta.
The verses of the Bible are generally credited to a sixteenth-century French printer named Robert Estienne (better known as Stephanus, the Latinized version of his surname).

 

[Scott Downey]

Religious texts​

[edit]
Although Robert Estienne was printing Bibles in Latin as early as 1528, he printed his first Greek New Testament in 1546. Despite its similarity to the works of Erasmus, Estienne did not credit Erasmus and rather claimed to be influenced by ancient codices.[41] The first two are beautiful Greek texts, called O mirifica.[42] The third and most significant is known as the Editio Regia or the "Royal Edition", published in 1550 for King Henri II. Typographically it is significant because the Greek font made by Garamond became the most widely used Greek font for European printers. In it he combined over 15 Greek sources with annotations in the margins.[43] The 1550 version became known as the Textus Receptus, the standard text for many generations.[44] The 1551 edition contains Erasmus's Latin translation and the Vulgate. Scholars have described his editing of the Vulgate as mediocre and lacking in effort or depth.[45] In this edition of the Vulgate, Estienne introduced the division of the New Testament into chapter and verses for the first time.[46]

 

[ProDeo]

I hope you are not that shallow-minded and think what I posted and you response is analogous or similar? I hope not.

I am indeed that shallow-minded.

I spoke hypothetically, although Trinitarians believe it, of two internal spirits, intrinsically, compromising the essence of the man Jesus, that is impossible.

I simply follow Scripture.

There is no science how God became flesh, just believe what is stated.

Also my last post on this topic.

 

[Lizbeth]

Pharisees Misinterpret Jesus' Work as most Trinitarians do today. The former did not believe Jesus was God only a man. The latter think he is God, period. At least the Pharisees knew better.

"At least the Pharisees knew better" who only saw Jesus through eyes of flesh? Yikes. They knew better than those who walk by faith not by sight?

Jhn 5:37-44

And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

I receive not honour from men.

But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.

I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

 

[face2face]

There is no science how God became flesh, just believe what is stated.

You must have several doubts about this doctrine by now, especially considering the past few weeks and the many unanswered questions.

 

[Lizbeth]

I hope you would understand this mind is developed over a period of time. Milk --> Meat...we have an High Priest who can deal with the ignorant of mind. But ultimately you are correct! Our spiritual reasoning ought to be on the Spirit and our actions should follow.
F2F

A person is translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light the moment we receive Christ and are born of His Spirit. This is something that happens in a moment of time, in the twinkling of an eye, the moment that Christ comes to dwell in us. We become a new creature at that time, a new man that is created after the image of He who created him........our new man has the mind and spirit of Christ. But there is a learning curve after that, as we deny and die out to our old man so to speak and learn to walk in the new man/Christ...His Spirit. Walking and perceiving by faith, not by sight....walking in the Spirit, perceiving in the Spirit, and learning to know the Shepherd's voice. After coming to Christ and receiving Him, we need to learn to rely on Him, His Spirit, for understanding, and not to rely on our own mind of flesh (which just can't perceive and grasp things of God.) "If any lack wisdom let him ask of God.........."

 

[face2face]

A person is translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light the moment we receive Christ and are born of His Spirit. This is something that happens in a moment of time, in the twinkling of an eye, the moment that Christ comes to dwell in us. We become a new creature at that time, a new man that is created after the image of He who created him........our new man has the mind and spirit of Christ. But there is a learning curve after that, as we deny and die out to our old man so to speak and learn to walk in the new man/Christ...His Spirit. Walking and perceiving by faith, not by sight....walking in the Spirit, perceiving in the Spirit, and learning to know the Shepherd's voice. After coming to Christ and receiving Him, we need to learn to rely on Him, His Spirit, for understanding, and not to rely on our own mind of flesh (which just can't perceive and grasp things of God.) "If any lack wisdom let him ask of God.........."

You may think you understand, but you don’t. Many people go through multiple conversions before they are fully transformed into one of God’s servants. It's the difference between Peter and Paul. It's not a one-size-fits-all situation, Lizbeth... but you know this from your own experiences in life and faith. I think from memory I lost count how many times Peter was called to be a disciple! However, the transformation from mortal to immortal at the resurrection will happen in the twinkling of an eye. Maybe that's where you are misled.

1 Corinthians 15:52
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

F2F

 

[Lizbeth]

You may think you understand, but you don’t. Many people go through multiple conversions before they are fully transformed into one of God’s servants. It's the difference between Peter and Paul. It's not a one-size-fits-all situation, Lizbeth... but you know this from your own experiences in life and faith. I think from memory I lost count how many times Peter was called to be a disciple! However, the transformation from mortal to immortal at the resurrection will happen in the twinkling of an eye. Maybe that's where you are misled.

1 Corinthians 15:52
"In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

F2F

Twinkling of an eye just signifies instantaneous, that is the point I was trying to make. Being born again is the necessary starting point and it happens in a moment of time, instantaneously, when we receive Him we receive faith that is not of our own mind but is of Him, of His Spirit, and we are changed....we receive revelation of Christ and experience a spiritual change and a 180 degree change in the direction of our life. That is when Christ first "apprehends" us. From that starting point we begin to grow and "seek to apprehend that for which Christ apprehended us".

 

[CadyandZoe]

God doesn’t really have “plans” per se….he has a purpose that he outlined in the beginning……he told the first humans to ….”fill the earth” with their children…..logically “the earth” was not just the garden, but a long range purpose to have the earth filled with human beings.

The idea that God orchestrates history in order to achieve an aim is found in passages like Ephesians and Hebrews, among others.

Ephesians 1:7-10 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth.​

Here, Paul indicates that God managed the fullness of time so that Jesus would eventually become the epitome of human existence and the head of all authorities. In other words, Unlike some religions that understand God to be a passive observer of history, Paul believes that God takes an adequate role the history of mankind, God fully guiding history toward a goal.

Hebrews 1:1-2 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. ​

He made the world.
Hidden behind the term "world" is the Greek word "aiwnas" meaning "ages." Paul indicates that God created the ages, which not only understands God's role as the creator of space and matter but also the creator of events. Adam was created to sin so that Jesus could become the savior of the world.

Were humans designed to live for so long and then grow old and die?

Yes. Paul discusses redemption in Romans 8, where he mentions that God subjected the world to futility, so creation itself looks forward to its own redemption.

Romans 8:18-21 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

Since death is an aspect of futility and God subjected the creation to futility, then God designed death into creation.

Death was only mentioned as a punishment for disobedience…..so again logically, if they had not disobeyed, they never would have died…..living forever in paradise on earth was God’s first purpose for the human race.

The truth is hidden in the phrase "surely die in the following passage.

Genesis 2:15-17 Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The Lord God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”

surely die
"surely die" literally means "dying you shall die". Whether Adam was good or bad, whether he was obedient or disobedient, Adam was going to die physically. God means to say that Adam would experience evil, suffering, heartache, disappointment, and other negative things such as these his entire life until he dies.

There were two trees in the garden….the eating of one was life giving…there other incurred death.
Which one did the humans choose? And therefore which one were they denied?

Good question. The presence of the Tree of Life is clear evidence that eternal existence was not inherent in nature but sustained by God. As soon as God removed the "Tree," death and futility became a reality.

 

[David in NJ]

God doesn’t really have “plans” per se….he has a purpose that he outlined in the beginning……he told the first humans to ….”fill the earth” with their children…..logically “the earth” was not just the garden, but a long range purpose to have the earth filled with human beings.

Were humans designed to live for so long and then grow old and die? Can you find me any natural cause of death mentioned to Adam?

Death was only mentioned as a punishment for disobedience…..so again logically, if they had not disobeyed, they never would have died…..living forever in paradise on earth was God’s first purpose for the human race.
Is there Scripture to back that up?

Gen 3:22-24….
”The Lord God said, “Since man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil, he must not reach out, take from the tree of life, eat, and live forever.” So the Lord God sent him away from the garden of Eden to work the ground from which he was taken. He drove man out and stationed the cherubim and the flaming, whirling sword east of the garden of Eden to guard the way to the tree of life.” (HCSB)

There were two trees in the garden….the eating of one was life giving…there other incurred death.
Which one did the humans choose? And therefore which one were they denied?

Where were humans designed to “live forever”? It wasn’t in heaven….and no human needed to go to heaven….nor would God have to send his son to earth to die, if Adam had not thrown us all under the bus.

The “Word of God” can mean a few different things….

“of speech

1. a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
2. what someone has said
   1. a word
   2. the sayings of God
   3. decree, mandate or order
   4. of the moral precepts given by God
   5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
   6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim

The “word of God” can be the written word, the spoken word, or as a title for Jesus, “one who speaks for God” like Aaron spoke for Moses.….Like an angel spoke for Yahweh in Gen 18.


He taught us to pray to the Father in his name….or under his God given authority. (John 16:23; Matt 28:18)

Aunty and @CadyandZoe,

Missed you two yesterday when i had two jw's over my house and we read from the Holy Scriptures TOGETHER.

We had a GREAT time reading about the Savior and LIGHT of the world = the Lord Jesus Christ
We also discovered how the Lord Jesus Christ instructs us to pray to Him.

 

[RLT63]

Ghost is a terrible translation but you are correct!

If you think its led you into beliving the Trinity then you would need to rethink what spirit has done this....

Act 5:3 - But Peter said,Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost , and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Act 5:4 - Whiles it remained,was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Holy Spirit and God are the same

 

[Wrangler]

‘for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren…"

God calls no-one brethren!

Hebrews 2:11 is further proof text that Jesus is NOT God, which is why Trinitarians must get the shackles of logic off their doctrinal back.

The Law of Mutual Exclusion, the bedrock of epistemology, along with The Law of Identity, disproves the trinity.
P1. God is our Father (not our brother).
P2. Jesus is our brother (not our father).
C. Jesus is NOT God.

 

[Wrangler]

Who is it that believes... this scripture is a lie???

1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Clearly the scripture says that there are 3 that bear witness in Heaven, and these 3 are One, so whassup wit dat?

Your claim of 3 in heaven is not supported the text. Please elaborate so the point you are making about 1 Thessalonians 5:23 can be flushed out.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I had said earlier that the timeline shows Gen 11 is actually within Gen 10.
Gen 11 just goes into greater details regarding the larger picture of Gen 10.

Other thing is God did not put chapter and verse numbers to the text, that showed up later when a man organized the scriptures into chapter and verse around 1200 ad and even later.

Where Did the Chapter and Verse Numbers of the Bible Originate?

The chapters of the Bible are usually credited to a 13th-century British scholar named Stephen Langton, who eventually became the Catholic archbishop of Canterb...

www.catholic.com

Question:​

Where did the chapter and verse numbers of the Bible originate? Were they in the original manuscripts?

Answer:​

The chapters of the Bible are usually credited to a 13th-century British scholar named Stephen Langton, who eventually became the Catholic archbishop of Canterbury. Langton is better known for his involvement in the conflict over the creation of the Magna Carta.
The verses of the Bible are generally credited to a sixteenth-century French printer named Robert Estienne (better known as Stephanus, the Latinized version of his surname).

As I added to my last post, it was a common style of Hebrew writing but more accurately how God delivered the story; starting with an introductory outline summation then going back and filling in details as Gen. 1 and 2 are delivered. We see false doctrines generated from Gen. 1& 2 by their lack of comprehension ( spiritual discernment). We have half the Body of Christ thinking there were two different stories and time frames of creation and adopting Darwinian evolutionary ideas and walla, Theistic Evolution. Some chapters in Revelation are not in chronological order either - which is why many get confused about that book - oy vey.

 

[RedFan]

Act 5:3 - But Peter said,Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost , and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Act 5:4 - Whiles it remained,was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Holy Spirit and God are the same

If Luke accurately quoted him here, Peter seems to have thought so. Yet in Acts 5:32 Peter apparently separates the two (again, if Luke quoted him accurately). Are we to interpret the latter verse as an expression of Peter's belief that God sending the Holy Spirit is equivalent to God sending His own spirit?