Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[RLT63]

Amazing how people think that the immaculate conception was about Jesus……it’s actually a Catholic teaching claiming that Mary was immaculately conceived so that she could give birth to God…..

Good grief! Is there no end to the drivel…?

Aunty Jane you don't believe in the virgin birth of Jesus?
I did not know this about JWs

 

[Aunty Jane]

The natural man cannot perceive the things of God. And the carnal mind is enmity against God. If you haven't been born again I don't expect you to understand that. Man's logic can't lead him into all truth, we need the Holy Spirit for that. He illuminates the scriptures to our mind.

I hope you realize that God is not the only Illuminator…..there is a pretender in the camp who give a really good impression of being “an angel of light”.

1 Cor 11:12-15….
”But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13  For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14  And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light. 15  It is therefore nothing extraordinary if his ministers also keep disguising themselves as ministers of righteousness. But their end will be according to their works.”

Look at the works…..look at what they do, not just what they say…..talk is cheap. Christendom is a disunited and fractured mess……not even close to Paul’s description at 1 Cor 1:10….

Most “born again” Christians cannot explain what it means, or why they need to be “born again”.

Can you explain what you think it means? Do all Christians need to be “born again”? What is the purpose of it?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Aunty Jane you don't believe in the virgin birth of Jesus?
I did not know this about JWs

Of course we believe in the virgin birth of Jesus…..the Bible plainly says so as part of his identification.
What we reject is the immaculate conception, which the Catholic church never applied to Jesus…..only to his mother.

 

[Grailhunter]

Catholics are mistaken about this, it doesn't apply to Mary but Jesus was born of a virgin
Tools
Mat 1:24 - Yosef arose from his sleep, and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took his wife to himself;
Tools
Mat 1:25 - and didn't know her sexually until she had brought forth her firstborn son. He named him Yeshua.

Isa 7:14 - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,and shall call his name Immanuel
Virgin is meant as one who has not had sex and here does not mean young girl. What kind of sign would it be if it said The Lord himself shall give you a sign, a young girl shall conceive and
have a son?
Without a virgin birth there is no sinless sacrifice for our sins and we are all lost .

Isaiah 7:14 People love it, but it is out of context....If you read the storyline the virgin they are talking about is Isaiah's wife. And she does have a child from Isaiah and the Hebrew definition for virgin gets ambiguous…From a woman that does not show signs of suckling, to a young maiden, to a woman that has not had a child yet. No finger tests of Hymens in this time period.

Sinless sacrifice….The whole….sex is dirty, nasty, and sinful and of the Devil! LOL Virgin does not make you holy or sinless LOL All mommies are dirty nasty and sinful and of the Devil!! You are funny! But I take it you believe in the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin?

Matthew 1:25 is talking about Joseph.

 

[RLT63]

Of course we believe in the virgin birth of Jesus…..the Bible plainly says so as part of his identification.
What we reject is the immaculate conception, which the Catholic church never applied to Jesus…..only to his mother.

I reject that as well. If there was an immaculate conception it was the conception of Jesus

 

[Aunty Jane]

I reject that as well. If there was an immaculate conception it was the conception of Jesus

There was no “immaculate conception”…this term is not biblical….it is purely an invention of the Catholic church….

Edit: Christ’s conception was a miracle…..no question that he was a product of God’s holy spirit.

 

[RLT63]

Isaiah 7:14 People love it, but it is out of context....If you read the storyline the virgin they are talking about is Isaiah's wife. And she does have a child from Isaiah and the Hebrew definition for virgin gets ambiguous…From a woman that does not show signs of suckling, to a young maiden, to a woman that has not had a child yet. No finger tests of Hymens in this time period.

Sinless sacrifice….The whole….sex is dirty, nasty, and sinful and of the Devil! LOL Virgin does not make you holy or sinless LOL All mommies are dirty nasty and sinful and of the Devil!! You are funny! But I take it you believe in the Catholic doctrine of Original Sin?

Matthew 1:25 is talking about Joseph.

Wrong
Mat 1:20 - But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Tools
Mat 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Tools
Mat 1:22 - Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord bythe prophet, saying,
Tools
Mat 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Yes verse 25 is taking about Joseph

 

[RLT63]

There was no “immaculate conception”…this term is not biblical….it is purely an invention of the Catholic church….

Edit: Christ’s conception was a miracle…..no question that he was a product of God’s holy spirit.

Agreed. But Christ’s conception was immaculate

 

[Aunty Jane]

Agreed. But Christ’s conception was immaculate

Not a word used in the Bible so I have no biblical definition for it….”immaculate” in my experience is a word used of clothing or a person’s house…..meaning clean and tidy…..hardly something you would use for conception…..?

 

[Grailhunter]

Wrong
Mat 1:20 - But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
Tools
Mat 1:21 - And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Tools
Mat 1:22 - Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord bythe prophet, saying,
Tools
Mat 1:23 - Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Yes verse 25 is taking about Joseph

I kind of already covered this….now in the Greek…
The Greek word for "virgin" is parthenos (παρθένος):
Meaning: A virgin, maiden, or young woman of marriageable age
Other meanings: Pure, chaste, or unsullied
Usage: In the New Testament, parthenos is used to describe both literal and metaphorical purity
Origin: The word's origin is uncertain
Associated Hebrew word: The Hebrew word almah is often associated with parthenos

This topic has been debated for centuries and the scholars always win....nothing to suggest that Miriam was a virgin after conception.

 

[RLT63]

Not a word used in the Bible so I have no biblical definition for it….”immaculate” in my experience is a word used of clothing or a person’s house…..meaning clean and tidy…..hardly something you would use for conception…..?

I take it to mean perfect

 

[RLT63]

I kind of already covered this….now in the Greek…
The Greek word for "virgin" is parthenos (παρθένος):
Meaning: A virgin, maiden, or young woman of marriageable age
Other meanings: Pure, chaste, or unsullied
Usage: In the New Testament, parthenos is used to describe both literal and metaphorical purity
Origin: The word's origin is uncerta
Associated Hebrew word: The Hebrew word almah is often associated with parthenos

This topic has been debated and the scholars always win....nothing to suggest that Miriam was a virgin after conception.

Oh I agree, after conception her husband Joseph knew her and they had other children.

What kind of sign would this be; behold , a young woman of marriageable age shall conceive and have a son?
Nothing special about that

 

[Brakelite]

That Jesus died is the most important fact of the Bible and it demonstrably proves that he was NOT God.

Not quite. It demonstrably process that Jesus is not the Father. It doesn't prove He wasn't the Son, and received the life of the Father as His own. Immortal, underived, self existent. Having received that life, He had the authority also to lay it down. Angels and humans do not Jane such authority, as their life already belongs to God. Christ's life was His own to do with according to His will. And His will was to do the Father's will. To give His life a ransom for many. Not a human life limited by mortality and dependent upon God for sustaining it, but a divine life given up and laid down, thus revealing the true nature of the Father... self sacrificial love. The Son of God was the echoes image of the Father... the express image of the Father's character... the express image of the Father's nature. The Son of God by inheritance was God in the highest sense, notwithstanding His Father being higher in authority/rank, as all fathers are.

 

[Grailhunter]

Oh I agree, after conception her husband Joseph knew her and they had other children.

What kind of sign would this be; behold , a young woman of marriageable age shall conceive and have a son?
Nothing special about that

The special” of it was that Yeshua was the true Son of God. The significance of it was that God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son. The significance of the sacrifice was that He was the Son of God and lived His life without sin.

Now I want to make something clear, if the scriptures said that God made Miriam pregnant or if the scriptures said that Yahweh put the baby Yeshua in her belly….I would be OK with that. But the words associated with her or Yeshua do not indicate anything but the normal process….and again if it was not the normal process could the scriptures call Yeshua the Son of God…. If not He would be the miracle of God.

God so love the world that He did a miracle and put Yeshua in Miriam, and He would be called the miracle baby.

Again virgin does not equal holy.
Because Christians over time developed a belief that sex was dirty, nasty, and sinful and of the Devil. They have a tendency to fixate on it. It is a wonder they do not consider an Apostle and Apostle unless they were a virgin. It is one of the reason that Catholic clergy are celibate because they believe you are not really right with God unless you are virgin. It all amounts to religious hoopla.

 

[face2face]

Without a virgin birth there is no sinless sacrifice for our sins and we are all lost .

Actually, it’s not the virgin birth itself, but the conception by the Holy Spirit that was essential. Two sinful parents could never produce a sinless man. God was Jesus' Father, and with this divine parentage came certain abilities that helped Him overcome the flesh and sin.

And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: Isaiah 11:3

He would have the ability to percieve the things of the Spirit quickly and deeply.

You need to really study the OT to better undestand the Master.

F2F

 

[MonoBiblical]

20. τῇ ἀπιστίᾳ—τῇ πίστει, dative marking the cause or occasion. Cf. Rom_11:30, Rom_4:20; 2Co_2:13; Blass, § 38. 2 (1898). For ἀπ. π., cf. Mrk_9:24.

Shalom-over and out-I'm tired of all the hackling going on here.

Late here in South Africa.

J.

Mark 9:24 is the best they can do, but again, the unbelief is not instrumental in this verse either. I prefer the "basics" of Greek to the "advanced" material; and they tend to contradict each other much.

 

[Johann]

Mark 9:24 is the best they can do, but again, the unbelief is not instrumental in this verse either. I prefer the "basics" of Greek to the "advanced" material; and they tend to contradict each other much.

No problem @MonoBiblical.

J.

 

[Johann]

Mark 9:24 is the best they can do, but again, the unbelief is not instrumental in this verse either. I prefer the "basics" of Greek to the "advanced" material; and they tend to contradict each other much.

Maybe this will help.

Syntactical Classification of Dative Case

www.ntgreek.org

or this-

A List of All Terms on the NTGreek

 

[Wrangler]

Not quite. It demonstrably process that Jesus is not the Father.

His death quite proves Jesus is not God because God cannot die. And there is only God the Father in Scripture.

 

[Lizbeth]

Debating two clear cases in point is like nailing Jell-O to the wall.
You must hate your mother and father to be a disciple of Christ..
Really? Should we do that?
Should rich people just give up because it is harder for them to get to Heaven? They would save a lot in not giving to charity.

God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son….
If He was pre-existent then He was not His Son in the Old Testament, so it would be God so loved the world that He told the God Yeshua to go jumbo into Miriam’s womb. Or Yeshua converted Himself to Yahweh’s sperm and He cast it into Miriam’s womb.

I like the nailing Jello to the wall analogy, lol. Scripture says Christ is both son of man and son of God. We need to just accept that instead of trying to pit scripture against scripture,....whether or not we understand and can nail down how this can be. The bible says this is a great mystery. He was born of a woman but begotten of God. And He pre-existed in eternity in the "form of God". But He humbled Himself to walk as a man, a perfect man perfectly obedient and submitted to the Father.