Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Brakelite]

This is one of the most preposterous, patently anti-Scriptural and anti-logical claims I’ve read in a long time. Reading into God’s word whatever one feels is on display.

As I said,

It's only logical to believe that if the scripture says God sent His Son, therefore God had a Son to send.

 

[Johann]

Ever read modern translations of 1 John 5:7? Ever read the translation error for this verse?

Don’t use error to base your doctrine on.

It's a half a truth @Wrangler


1Jn_5:7 There is some confusion in the English translations as to where 1Jn_5:6-8 begin and end. The portion of 1Jn_5:7 that is found in the KJV which says "in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one," is not found in the three major ancient uncial Greek manuscripts of the NT: Alexandrinus (A), Vaticanus (B), or Sinaiticus (א), nor in the Byzantine family of manuscripts. It only appears in four late minuscule manuscripts.

1. MS 61, dated in the 16th century

2. MS 88 dated in the 12th century, where the passage is inserted in the margin by a later hand

3. MS 629, dated in the 14th or 15th century

4. MS 635, dated in the 11th century, where the passage is inserted in the margin by a later hand
This verse is not quoted by any of the Early Church Fathers, even in their doctrinal debates over the Trinity. It is absent from all ancient versions except one late Latin manuscript family (Sixto-Clementine). It is not in the Old Latin or Jerome's Vulgate. It appears first in a treatise by the Spanish heretic Priscillian, who died in A.D. 385. It was quoted by Latin Fathers in North Africa and Italy in the 5th century.

tc Before τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα (to pneuma kai to hudōr kai to haima, “the Spirit and the water and the blood”) at the beginning of v. 8, the Textus Receptus (TR) reads ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατήρ, ὁ λόγος, καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα, καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι. 5:8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ (“in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that testify on earth”).

This reading, the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidence—both external and internal—is decidedly against its authenticity. For a detailed discussion, see TCGNT 647-49.

Our discussion will briefly address the external evidence. This longer reading is found only in ten late mss, four of which have the words in a marginal note. These mss range in date from the 10th century (221) to the 18th (2318). They include the following (with dates in parentheses) 221 (X), 177 (XI), 88 (XII), 429 (XIV), 629 (XIV), 636 (XV), 61 (ca.1520), 918 (XVI), 2473 (1634), and 2318 (XVIII).

There are minor variations among these codices. The earliest ms, codex 221, includes the reading in a marginal note, added sometime after the original composition. The oldest ms with the Comma in its text is from the 14th century (629), but the wording here departs from all the other mss in several places. The next oldest mss on behalf of the Comma, 177 (11th century), 88 (12th), 429 (14th), and 636 (15th), also have the reading only as a marginal note (v.l.). Codex 177’s Comma is in a marginal note that must be dated after 1551, the year of the first Greek New Testament with verse numbers added. The remaining mss are from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek ms until the 14th century (629), and that ms deviates from all others in its wording; the wording that matches what is found in the TR was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the Comma appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either ms, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until a.d. 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin).

This is all the more significant since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity. The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church. The Trinitarian formula (the Comma Johanneum) found a place in the third edition of Erasmus’ Greek NT (1522) because of pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared, there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to defend himself.

He argued that he did not put in the Comma because he found no Greek mss that included it. Once one was produced (codex 61, written in ca. 1520), Erasmus apparently felt obliged to include the reading. He became aware of this ms sometime between May of 1520 and September of 1521. In his annotations to his third edition he does not protest the rendering now in his text, as though it were made to order, but he does defend himself from the charge of indolence, noting that he had taken care to find whatever mss he could for the production of his text. In the final analysis, Erasmus probably altered the text because of politico-theologico-economic concerns:

He did not want his reputation ruined, nor his Novum Instrumentum to go unsold. Modern advocates of the TR and KJV generally argue for the inclusion of the Comma Johanneum on the basis of heretical motivation by scribes who did not include it. But these same scribes elsewhere include thoroughly orthodox readings—even in places where the TR/Byzantine mss lack them. Further, these advocates argue theologically from the position of divine preservation: Since this verse is in the TR, it must be original. (Of course, this approach is circular, presupposing as it does that the TR = the original text.) In reality, the issue is history, not heresy: How can one argue that the Comma Johanneum goes back to the original text yet does not appear until the 14th century in any Greek mss (and in a form significantly different from what is printed in the TR; the wording of the TR is not found in any Greek mss until the 16th century)? Such a stance does not do justice to the gospel: Faith must be rooted in history. Significantly, the German translation of Luther was based on Erasmus’ second edition (1519) and lacked the Comma. But the KJV translators, basing their work principally on Theodore Beza’s 10th edition of the Greek NT (1598), a work which itself was fundamentally based on Erasmus’ third and later editions (and Stephanus’ editions), popularized the Comma for the English-speaking world. Thus, the Comma Johanneum has been a battleground for English-speaking Christians more than for others. For a recent discussion of the Comma Johanneum, see Rodrigo Galiza and John W. Reeve, “The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7–8): The Status of Its Textual History and Theological Usage in English, Greek, and Latin,” AUSS 56 (2018) 63–89.

1 John 5

“For indeed the day is coming, burning like a furnace, and all the arrogant evildoers will be chaff. The coming day will burn them up,” says the Lord who rules over all. “It will not leave even a root or branch. But for you who respect my name, the sun of vindication will rise with healing...

netbible.org

BUT---

This verse is simply not part of the original inspired words of 1 John.
The biblical doctrine of one God (monotheism) but with three personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit) is not affected by the rejection of this verse. Although it is true that the Bible never uses the word "trinity," many biblical passages speak of all three persons of the Godhead acting together:

1. at Jesus' baptism (Mat_3:16-17)
2. the great commission (Mat_28:19)
3. the Spirit sent (Joh_14:26)
4. Peter's Pentecost sermon (Act_2:33-34)
5. Paul's discussion of flesh and spirit (Rom_8:7-10)
6. Paul's discussion of spiritual gifts (1Co_12:4-6)
7. Paul's travel plans (2Co_1:21-22)
8. Paul's benediction (2Co_13:14)
9. Paul's discussion of the fullness of time (Gal_4:4-6)
10. Paul's prayer of praise to the Father (Eph_1:3-14)
11. Paul's discussion of the Gentiles' former alienation (Eph_2:18)
12. Paul's discussion of the oneness of God (Eph_4:4-6)
13. Paul's discussion of the kindness of God (Tit_3:4-6)
14. Peter's introduction (1Pe_1:2)

Thanks.

J.

 

[face2face]

It's a half a truth @Wrangler


1Jn_5:7 There is some confusion in the English translations as to where 1Jn_5:6-8 begin and end. The portion of 1Jn_5:7 that is found in the KJV which says "in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one," is not found in the three major ancient uncial Greek manuscripts of the NT: Alexandrinus (A), Vaticanus (B), or Sinaiticus (א), nor in the Byzantine family of manuscripts. It only appears in four late minuscule manuscripts.

1. MS 61, dated in the 16th century

2. MS 88 dated in the 12th century, where the passage is inserted in the margin by a later hand

3. MS 629, dated in the 14th or 15th century

4. MS 635, dated in the 11th century, where the passage is inserted in the margin by a later hand
This verse is not quoted by any of the Early Church Fathers, even in their doctrinal debates over the Trinity. It is absent from all ancient versions except one late Latin manuscript family (Sixto-Clementine). It is not in the Old Latin or Jerome's Vulgate. It appears first in a treatise by the Spanish heretic Priscillian, who died in A.D. 385. It was quoted by Latin Fathers in North Africa and Italy in the 5th century.

tc Before τὸ πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα (to pneuma kai to hudōr kai to haima, “the Spirit and the water and the blood”) at the beginning of v. 8, the Textus Receptus (TR) reads ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ πατήρ, ὁ λόγος, καὶ τὸ ἅγιον πνεῦμα, καὶ οὗτοι οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι. 5:8 καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ (“in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. 5:8 And there are three that testify on earth”).

This reading, the infamous Comma Johanneum, has been known in the English-speaking world through the King James translation. However, the evidence—both external and internal—is decidedly against its authenticity. For a detailed discussion, see TCGNT 647-49.

Our discussion will briefly address the external evidence. This longer reading is found only in ten late mss, four of which have the words in a marginal note. These mss range in date from the 10th century (221) to the 18th (2318). They include the following (with dates in parentheses) 221 (X), 177 (XI), 88 (XII), 429 (XIV), 629 (XIV), 636 (XV), 61 (ca.1520), 918 (XVI), 2473 (1634), and 2318 (XVIII).

There are minor variations among these codices. The earliest ms, codex 221, includes the reading in a marginal note, added sometime after the original composition. The oldest ms with the Comma in its text is from the 14th century (629), but the wording here departs from all the other mss in several places. The next oldest mss on behalf of the Comma, 177 (11th century), 88 (12th), 429 (14th), and 636 (15th), also have the reading only as a marginal note (v.l.). Codex 177’s Comma is in a marginal note that must be dated after 1551, the year of the first Greek New Testament with verse numbers added. The remaining mss are from the 16th to 18th centuries.

Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek ms until the 14th century (629), and that ms deviates from all others in its wording; the wording that matches what is found in the TR was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the Comma appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either ms, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until a.d. 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin).

This is all the more significant since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity. The reading seems to have arisen in a fourth century Latin homily in which the text was allegorized to refer to members of the Trinity. From there, it made its way into copies of the Latin Vulgate, the text used by the Roman Catholic Church. The Trinitarian formula (the Comma Johanneum) found a place in the third edition of Erasmus’ Greek NT (1522) because of pressure from the Catholic Church. After his first edition appeared, there arose such a furor over the absence of the Comma that Erasmus needed to defend himself.

He argued that he did not put in the Comma because he found no Greek mss that included it. Once one was produced (codex 61, written in ca. 1520), Erasmus apparently felt obliged to include the reading. He became aware of this ms sometime between May of 1520 and September of 1521. In his annotations to his third edition he does not protest the rendering now in his text, as though it were made to order, but he does defend himself from the charge of indolence, noting that he had taken care to find whatever mss he could for the production of his text. In the final analysis, Erasmus probably altered the text because of politico-theologico-economic concerns:

He did not want his reputation ruined, nor his Novum Instrumentum to go unsold. Modern advocates of the TR and KJV generally argue for the inclusion of the Comma Johanneum on the basis of heretical motivation by scribes who did not include it. But these same scribes elsewhere include thoroughly orthodox readings—even in places where the TR/Byzantine mss lack them. Further, these advocates argue theologically from the position of divine preservation: Since this verse is in the TR, it must be original. (Of course, this approach is circular, presupposing as it does that the TR = the original text.) In reality, the issue is history, not heresy: How can one argue that the Comma Johanneum goes back to the original text yet does not appear until the 14th century in any Greek mss (and in a form significantly different from what is printed in the TR; the wording of the TR is not found in any Greek mss until the 16th century)? Such a stance does not do justice to the gospel: Faith must be rooted in history. Significantly, the German translation of Luther was based on Erasmus’ second edition (1519) and lacked the Comma. But the KJV translators, basing their work principally on Theodore Beza’s 10th edition of the Greek NT (1598), a work which itself was fundamentally based on Erasmus’ third and later editions (and Stephanus’ editions), popularized the Comma for the English-speaking world. Thus, the Comma Johanneum has been a battleground for English-speaking Christians more than for others. For a recent discussion of the Comma Johanneum, see Rodrigo Galiza and John W. Reeve, “The Johannine Comma (1 John 5:7–8): The Status of Its Textual History and Theological Usage in English, Greek, and Latin,” AUSS 56 (2018) 63–89.

1 John 5

“For indeed the day is coming, burning like a furnace, and all the arrogant evildoers will be chaff. The coming day will burn them up,” says the Lord who rules over all. “It will not leave even a root or branch. But for you who respect my name, the sun of vindication will rise with healing...

netbible.org

BUT---

This verse is simply not part of the original inspired words of 1 John.
The biblical doctrine of one God (monotheism) but with three personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit) is not affected by the rejection of this verse. Although it is true that the Bible never uses the word "trinity," many biblical passages speak of all three persons of the Godhead acting together:

1. at Jesus' baptism (Mat_3:16-17)
2. the great commission (Mat_28:19)
3. the Spirit sent (Joh_14:26)
4. Peter's Pentecost sermon (Act_2:33-34)
5. Paul's discussion of flesh and spirit (Rom_8:7-10)
6. Paul's discussion of spiritual gifts (1Co_12:4-6)
7. Paul's travel plans (2Co_1:21-22)
8. Paul's benediction (2Co_13:14)
9. Paul's discussion of the fullness of time (Gal_4:4-6)
10. Paul's prayer of praise to the Father (Eph_1:3-14)
11. Paul's discussion of the Gentiles' former alienation (Eph_2:18)
12. Paul's discussion of the oneness of God (Eph_4:4-6)
13. Paul's discussion of the kindness of God (Tit_3:4-6)
14. Peter's introduction (1Pe_1:2)

Thanks.

J.

I dont know if you can see how this looks my end Johann but you do yourselves no favours speaking to verses like this in support of the Trinity

The verse is not found in the earliest Greek manuscripts of 1 John. The earliest reliable manuscripts, such as Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, do not include the Comma Johanneum. Its first appearance in the Greek manuscripts is in the 15th century, and it is thought to have been added in later manuscripts to support the doctrine of the Trinity.

You don't need me to tell you how bad this looks.

 

[Johann]

I dont know if you can see how this looks my end Johann but you do yourselves no favours speaking to verses like this in support of the Trinity

The verse is not found in the earliest Greek manuscripts of 1 John. The earliest reliable manuscripts, such as Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, do not include the Comma Johanneum. Its first appearance in the Greek manuscripts is in the 15th century, and it is thought to have been added in later manuscripts to support the doctrine of the Trinity.

You don't need me to tell you how bad this looks.

You seem to have significant issues with reading comprehension-the challenge with this type of discussion is not knowing whether the person is under the influence of excessive marijuana use, alcohol, or in a general state of inebriation.

J.

 

[face2face]

You seem to have significant issues with reading comprehension-the challenge with this type of discussion is not knowing whether the person is under the influence of excessive marijuana use, alcohol, or in a general state of inebriation.

J.

I understand your perspective, but I can assure you that my thoughts are both clear and intentional. Let's keep this discussion respectful and focus on the actual points being made. I’m open to hearing your views, provided you can communicate openly and honestly. However, it would be more productive if we could engage with each other’s arguments in a constructive way. I’ve asked you several times to provide evidence, yet that hasn't been forthcoming. Instead, I’m met with partial truths that attempt to justify alterations made to the Word by those with impure motives.

My comment still stands that it doesnt look good using this verse to force 3n1 dogma.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann

Are you seriously suggesting these verses support the doctrine of the Trinity?

1. at Jesus' baptism (Mat_3:16-17)
2. the great commission (Mat_28:19)
3. the Spirit sent (Joh_14:26)
4. Peter's Pentecost sermon (Act_2:33-34)
5. Paul's discussion of flesh and spirit (Rom_8:7-10)
6. Paul's discussion of spiritual gifts (1Co_12:4-6)
7. Paul's travel plans (2Co_1:21-22)
8. Paul's benediction (2Co_13:14)
9. Paul's discussion of the fullness of time (Gal_4:4-6)
10. Paul's prayer of praise to the Father (Eph_1:3-14)
11. Paul's discussion of the Gentiles' former alienation (Eph_2:18)
12. Paul's discussion of the oneness of God (Eph_4:4-6)
13. Paul's discussion of the kindness of God (Tit_3:4-6)
14. Peter's introduction (1Pe_1:2)

Lets take the first one:

Matthew 3:16-17 (ESV):

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him.
17 And behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

We have the Spirit of God (Yahwehs Power) coming down upon the Lord Jesus and the Father approving voice from Heaven.

You mention my comprehension!

Where in these verses does it show the Spirit of God to be a Person?
Where in this section is the complex Trinitarian formula found?

You have the Fathers approving voice concerning His Son
You have the Father sending His Power to rest upon him.

That's it Johann!

F2F

 

[Johann]

@Johann

Are you seriously suggesting these verses support the doctrine of the Trinity?

1. at Jesus' baptism (Mat_3:16-17)
2. the great commission (Mat_28:19)
3. the Spirit sent (Joh_14:26)
4. Peter's Pentecost sermon (Act_2:33-34)
5. Paul's discussion of flesh and spirit (Rom_8:7-10)
6. Paul's discussion of spiritual gifts (1Co_12:4-6)
7. Paul's travel plans (2Co_1:21-22)
8. Paul's benediction (2Co_13:14)
9. Paul's discussion of the fullness of time (Gal_4:4-6)
10. Paul's prayer of praise to the Father (Eph_1:3-14)
11. Paul's discussion of the Gentiles' former alienation (Eph_2:18)
12. Paul's discussion of the oneness of God (Eph_4:4-6)
13. Paul's discussion of the kindness of God (Tit_3:4-6)
14. Peter's introduction (1Pe_1:2)

Lets take the first one:

Matthew 3:16-17 (ESV):

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him.
17 And behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.”

We have the Spirit of God (Yahwehs Power) coming down upon the Lord Jesus and the Father approving voice from Heaven.

You mention my comprehension!

Where in these verses does it show the Spirit of God to be a Person?
Where in this section is the complex Trinitarian formula found?

You have the Fathers approving voice concerning His Son
You have the Father sending His Power to rest upon him.

That's it Johann!

F2F

THE TRINITY

Notice the activity of all three Persons of the Trinity in unified contexts. The term "trinity," first coined by Tertullian (A.D. 160-220), is not a biblical word, but the concept is pervasive.

In the NT
the Gospels
Matt. 3:16-17; 28:19 (and parallels)
John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7-10
Acts ‒ Acts 2:32-33, 38-39
Paul
Rom. 1:4-5; 5:1,5; 8:1-4,8-10
1 Cor. 2:8-10; 12:4-6
2 Cor. 1:21-22; 13:14
Gal. 4:4-6
Eph. 1:3-14,17; 2:18; 3:14-17; 4:4-6
1 Thess. 1:2-5
2 Thess. 2:13
Titus 3:4-6
Peter ‒ 1 Pet. 1:2
John ‒ 1 John 3:23-24; 4:13-14; 5:6-8
Jude ‒ vv. 20-21

A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.
Use of PLURALS for God
Name Elohim is PLURAL (see SPECIAL TOPIC: NAMES FOR DEITY, C.), but when used of God always has a SINGULAR VERB
"Us" in Genesis 1:26-27 (see full notes online); 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8
"One" in the Shema (BDB 1033) of Deut. 6:4 can be PLURAL (as it is in Gen. 2:24; Ezek. 37:17; SPECIAL TOPIC: SHEMA)
"The Angel of the Lord" (see SPECIAL TOPIC: The Angel of the Lord) was a visible representative of Deity
Genesis 16:7-13; 22:11-15; 31:11,13; 48:15-16
Exodus 3:2,4; 13:21; 14:19
Judges 2:1; 6:22-23; 13:3-22
Zechariah 3:1-2
God and His Spirit are separate, Gen. 1:1-2; Ps. 104:30; Isa. 63:9-11; Ezek. 37:13-14
God (YHWH) and Messiah (Adon) are separate, Ps. 45:6-7; 110:1; Zech. 2:8-11; 10:9-12
The Messiah and the Spirit are separate, Zech. 12:10
All three are mentioned in one context in Isa. 48:16 and 61:1

The Deity of Jesus (see (see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE DEITY OF CHRIST FROM THE OT, and the NT verses: John 1:1-2; 5:18; 8:58; 10:30; 14:9; 17:11; 20:28; Rom. 9:5; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13; Heb. 1:8; 2 Pet. 1:1) and the personality of the Spirit (see SPECIAL TOPIC: PERSONHOOD OF THE SPIRIT) caused problems for the strict, monotheistic (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM) early Jewish believers.
Tertullian ‒ subordinated the Son to the Father
Origen ‒ subordinated the divine essence of the Son and the Spirit
Arius ‒ denied Deity to the Son and Spirit
Monarchianism ‒ believed in a successive chronological manifestation of the one God in the persons of Father, then Son, and then Spirit

The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate. There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one eternal divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
For more information on the developed doctrinal understanding of the Trinity or Tri-Unity of God, see

Millard J. Erickson, Christian Theology, 2nd ed., chapter 16, "God's Three-in-Oneness: The Trinity," pp. 340-367.
Hard Sayings of the Bible, John 1:1; "One God or Three?", pp. 490-492

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY

The Trinity -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Deal with it and stop tagging me.

J.

 

[face2face]

A plurality in God is hinted at in the OT.

I've shown you OT & NT harmonies and you use the word "hinted"

Please Johann, do better than this...at the very least read the Apostles work on the true nature of Christ and then discover the Oneness of God.

And why would you do this?

THE TRINITY

The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate. There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one eternal divine essence (monotheism) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit).
For more information on the developed doctrinal understanding of the Trinity or Tri-Unity of God, see

J.

Provide the specific evidence that points to a corruption of the text, the body of Christ, and the distortion of the Apostles' teachings.

You need to be tagged if you are ever to have any hope of learning the original true Gospel of Christ.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him.
17 And behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:16-17 (ESV):

We have the Spirit of God (Yahweh's Power) coming down upon the Lord Jesus and the Father approving voice from Heaven.

Where in these verses does it show the Spirit of God to be a Person?
Where does it show duality of nature?
Where does it show Christ' divinity?
Where does it show the complex formula of the Trinity?

The issue with copying large sections of text is that it's difficult to proofread everything thoroughly.

F2F

 

[Johann]

@Johann

16 And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him.
17 And behold, a voice from heaven said, “This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased.” Matthew 3:16-17 (ESV):

We have the Spirit of God (Yahweh's Power) coming down upon the Lord Jesus and the Father approving voice from Heaven.

Where in these verses does it show the Spirit of God to be a Person?
Where does it show duality of nature?
Where does it show Christ' divinity?
Where does it show the complex formula of the Trinity?

The issue with copying large sections of text is that it's difficult to proofread everything thoroughly.

F2F

THE PERSONHOOD OF THE SPIRIT

Old Testament
 In the OT "the Spirit of God" (i.e., ruach) was a force which accomplished YHWH's purpose (see SPECIAL TOPIC: SPIRIT IN THE BIBLE), I., but there is little hint that He was personal (cf. Isa. 48:16; 61:1).

New Testament
 However, in the NT (see SPECIAL TOPIC: SPIRIT IN THE BIBLE), II., III., IV. the full personality and personhood of the Spirit is revealed:
He can be blasphemed (cf. Matt. 12:31; Mark 3:29)
He teaches (cf. Luke 12:12; John 14:26)
He advocates for believers (cf. John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7)
He bears witness (cf. John 15:26)
He glorifies the Son (cf. John 16:14)
He convicts, guides (cf. John 16:7-15)
He can be resisted (cf. Acts 7:51)
He speaks His will (cf. Acts 13:2,4; 15:28)
He is called "who" (i.e., hos, cf. Eph. 1:14)
He can be grieved (cf. Eph. 4:30)
He can be quenched (cf. 1 Thess. 5:19)

Trinitarian texts (here are three of many, see full list see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY) also speak of three persons.
Matt. 28:19
2 Cor. 13:14
1 Pet. 1:2
 The Greek word "spirit" (pneuma) is grammatically NEUTER when referring to the Spirit, but the NT often uses MASCULINE DEMONSTRATIVE ADJECTIVE to denote it is referring to a person (i.e., John 16:8,13-14).
 The Spirit is linked to human activity.
Rom. 8:26
1 Cor. 12:11
Eph. 4:30

Acts specifically
 At the very beginning of Acts, the Spirit's role is emphasized (as in the Gospel of John). Pentecost was not the beginning of the work of the Spirit, but a new chapter. Jesus always had the Spirit. His baptism was not the beginning of the work of the Spirit, but a new chapter. The Spirit is the effective means of the Father's purpose for the restoration of all humans made in His image (see SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN)! This is the Age of the Spirit, the third Person of The Trinity.

Theological Development
 The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one divine essence (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit; see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY).

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE PERSONHOOD OF THE SPIRIT

Personhood of the Spirit -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Checkmate.

J.

 

[Johann]

Please Johann, do better than this...at the very least read the Apostles work on the true nature of Christ and then discover the Oneness of God.

I am not obligated to respond to you, as you fall into one of these categories of individuals. Problematic as you stand exposed.


Arians (or Arianism)

Arians are followers of the heretical teachings of Arius, a 4th-century Christian priest who denied the full divinity of Jesus Christ, asserting that Jesus was a created being and not co-eternal with the Father.

According to Arianism, Jesus was seen as a divine being but not truly God in the same way as the Father. This view was condemned by the First Council of Nicaea (325 AD), which affirmed the full deity of Christ.
Key reference: John 1:1-14 affirms that the Word (Jesus) was with God and was God, contradicting Arian views.

2. Unitarians
Unitarians are individuals or groups that reject the doctrine of the Trinity, specifically denying the full deity of Jesus Christ. They believe in the oneness of God and view Jesus as a great prophet or teacher but not as God Himself. They hold that God is one person (the Father), and Jesus is not part of the divine essence.

Key reference: John 14:28 (Jesus says, "The Father is greater than I"), but this verse must be understood in the context of the incarnation and Jesus' role in salvation, not as a denial of His deity.

3. Jehovah's Witnesses
Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is not God but rather the Son of God, a created being (the Archangel Michael) who was later incarnated as Jesus. They deny the Trinity and assert that Jesus is distinct from God the Father, rejecting His full divinity.

Key reference: Colossians 2:9 teaches that "in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," which contradicts Jehovah’s Witnesses' view of Jesus.

4. Christadelphians
The Christadelphians hold a belief similar to that of Unitarians, rejecting the full deity of Jesus Christ. They view Jesus as the Son of God, but not as divine or co-equal with the Father. They believe Jesus was fully human and did not pre-exist before His birth.
Key reference: John 1:1-14 affirms the pre-existence and divinity of Christ, in contrast to Christadelphian views.

5. Oneness Pentecostals (or Jesus Only Movement)
While Oneness Pentecostals believe in the divinity of Jesus, they reject the traditional doctrine of the Trinity. They believe that God is a single person who manifested Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in different modes, and that Jesus is the full manifestation of God, but not a distinct person within the Trinity.
Key reference: John 10:30 ("I and the Father are one") is often cited to defend the unity of God in Jesus.

6. Docetists (Historical Heresy)
Docetists are individuals who hold the view that Jesus only appeared to be human, but was actually fully divine and not truly incarnate. This was an early heresy in the church, which denied both the humanity and personhood of Jesus Christ. It is a form of Gnosticism that believed the physical world was evil, and thus, Jesus could not have truly taken on a physical body.
Key reference: 1 John 4:2-3 refutes this heresy, stating that those who confess Jesus Christ came in the flesh are of God.

7. Muslims
Muslims also deny the deity of Jesus, believing Him to be a prophet and a servant of Allah but not divine. In Islam, Jesus (Isa) is considered a key figure, but His crucifixion and divinity are denied.
Key reference: John 1:1-14 affirms Jesus' divine nature, which contrasts with Islamic teachings.

8. Modern Denialists
There are also various modern groups or individuals who deny the deity and personhood of Jesus, influenced by liberal theology or secular humanism. These individuals may reject biblical authority altogether or re-interpret Jesus as a moral teacher rather than the incarnate God.

Summary of Core Issues
Deity of Christ: These groups deny that Jesus is fully God (co-equal and co-eternal with the Father).
Personhood of Christ: Some deny that Jesus is one person with two natures (fully God and fully man).
Scripture References affirming the deity and personhood of Jesus:

John 1:1-14: Jesus is identified as the Word, who was both with God and was God, and who became flesh.

John 10:30: "I and the Father are one," showing unity of essence between Jesus and the Father.

Colossians 2:9: "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily," affirming the full deity of Jesus.

Hebrews 1:8: "But of the Son He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,'" affirming Jesus' divine nature.

Philippians 2:6-7: Jesus, though being in the form of God, took on human form, showing His dual nature.
These references, along with others, affirm the orthodox Christian understanding of Jesus as both fully God and fully man, rejecting the views of those who deny His deity and personhood.

Shalom.

Don't tag me, I have better things to do.

J.

 

[face2face]

THE PERSONHOOD OF THE SPIRIT

Old Testament
 In the OT "the Spirit of God" (i.e., ruach) was a force which accomplished YHWH's purpose (see SPECIAL TOPIC: SPIRIT IN THE BIBLE), I., but there is little hint that He was personal (cf. Isa. 48:16; 61:1).

New Testament
 However, in the NT (see SPECIAL TOPIC: SPIRIT IN THE BIBLE), II., III., IV. the full personality and personhood of the Spirit is revealed:
He can be blasphemed (cf. Matt. 12:31; Mark 3:29)
He teaches (cf. Luke 12:12; John 14:26)
He advocates for believers (cf. John 14:26; 15:26; 16:7)
He bears witness (cf. John 15:26)
He glorifies the Son (cf. John 16:14)
He convicts, guides (cf. John 16:7-15)
He can be resisted (cf. Acts 7:51)
He speaks His will (cf. Acts 13:2,4; 15:28)
He is called "who" (i.e., hos, cf. Eph. 1:14)
He can be grieved (cf. Eph. 4:30)
He can be quenched (cf. 1 Thess. 5:19)

Trinitarian texts (here are three of many, see full list see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY) also speak of three persons.
Matt. 28:19
2 Cor. 13:14
1 Pet. 1:2
 The Greek word "spirit" (pneuma) is grammatically NEUTER when referring to the Spirit, but the NT often uses MASCULINE DEMONSTRATIVE ADJECTIVE to denote it is referring to a person (i.e., John 16:8,13-14).
 The Spirit is linked to human activity.
Rom. 8:26
1 Cor. 12:11
Eph. 4:30

Acts specifically
 At the very beginning of Acts, the Spirit's role is emphasized (as in the Gospel of John). Pentecost was not the beginning of the work of the Spirit, but a new chapter. Jesus always had the Spirit. His baptism was not the beginning of the work of the Spirit, but a new chapter. The Spirit is the effective means of the Father's purpose for the restoration of all humans made in His image (see SPECIAL TOPIC: YHWH'S ETERNAL REDEMPTIVE PLAN)! This is the Age of the Spirit, the third Person of The Trinity.

Theological Development
 The Trinity is a historically developed formulation informed by the biblical material.
the full Deity of Jesus, equal to the Father, was affirmed in A.D. 325 by the Council of Nicea (cf. John 1:1; Phil. 2:6; Titus 2:13)
the full personality and Deity of the Spirit equal to the Father and Son was affirmed in A.D. 381 by the Council of Constantinople
the doctrine of the Trinity is fully expressed in Augustine's work De Trinitate There is truly mystery here. But the NT affirms one divine essence (see SPECIAL TOPIC: MONOTHEISM) with three eternal personal manifestations (Father, Son, and Spirit; see SPECIAL TOPIC: THE TRINITY).

SPECIAL TOPIC: THE PERSONHOOD OF THE SPIRIT

Personhood of the Spirit -- Special Topic by Dr. Bob Utley, professor of hermeneutics (retired).

www.freebiblecommentary.org

Checkmate.

J.

The infection has run so deep its in your bones in the marrow.

The Holy Spirit is the power of God (Luke 1:35).

When the Holy Spirit acts, it is essentially God who is acting. For instance, when it says, "The Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit... shall teach you all things" (John 14:26), it means "God will teach you all things through His divine power."

Similarly, while the Scriptures themselves cannot literally "speak," it is written, "For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh" (Rom. 9:17), but in reality, it is God who spoke this, and His human messenger, empowered by the Holy Spirit, faithfully recorded it. In this case, there is a blending of what "God says" with what "Scripture says." Likewise, when the Holy Spirit is said to "speak," "bear witness," or be a "comforter," it is ultimately God who is doing the speaking, witnessing, and comforting, through His power— the Holy Spirit.

John 15:26

"But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

Can you see why the Spirit is personified Johann?

John 16:13-14

"When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you."

The Holy Spirit can be understood as a power through a careful comparison of the following passages:

In Genesis 1:1-2, it says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth... And the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

Other references to creation attribute this work to God's power. For example:

• "I have made the earth, the man, and the beasts that are on the ground, by my great power..." (Jeremiah 27:5).
• "He made the earth by his power..." (Jeremiah 51:15, cf. 10:12).
• "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath [Hebrew: 'ruach', meaning spirit] of his mouth all their host..." (Psalm 33:6).

This understanding makes sense if the Holy Spirit is seen as a power. However, if the Holy Spirit were to be viewed as a distinct and omnipotent Person within the Godhead, this language would not suffice.

Hebrews 6:4-5 states: "For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age..." Here, the Holy Spirit is linked to the "powers of the coming age."

Luke 1:35 says: "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you..." The parallel structure suggests that the "Holy Spirit" is synonymous with the "power of the Most High."

Isaiah 11:2 says, "The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him..." This is understood in the New Testament as "God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power" (Acts 10:38).

I could list so many more examples J.

Yours was a pseudo-checkmate!

F2F

 

[face2face]

I am not obligated to respond to you, as you fall into one of these categories of individuals. Problematic as you stand exposed.

J.

Yet, Johann, you continue to do so, and each time we discuss the things of God, you are left with unanswered questions that are accumulating to the point where it seems they may become insurmountable for you to overcome!

I don't stand exposed, as I have the true covering of Christ and I understand How God provided it in overcoming sins flesh. I suggest you should be more concerned about your own standing than comment on mine.

F2F

 

[Johann]

The infection has run so deep its in your bones in the marrow.

The personhood of the Holy Spirit is a significant doctrine in Christian theology, and several verses in both the New Testament and Old Testament (via the Septuagint) highlight the personal attributes of the Holy Spirit. Specifically, the Holy Spirit is referred to using personal pronouns, including the masculine singular "He" (Ἐκεῖνος in Greek), indicating His personhood as distinct from an impersonal force or power.

Below is a list of key verses that speak of the Holy Spirit's personhood and use the pronoun "He".

1. John 14:16-17
Text: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is referred to as "he" (ἐκεῖνος in Greek, meaning "he, that one") as the Comforter, emphasizing the personal nature of the Spirit.

2. John 14:26
Text: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is referred to with the pronoun "he" (ἐκεῖνος), indicating a personal agent who teaches and reminds the disciples.

3. John 15:26
Text: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is again described with the masculine pronoun "he" (ἐκεῖνος), emphasizing His personal action in testifying about Jesus.

4. John 16:13-14
Text: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is referred to as "he" (ἐκεῖνος), and multiple actions are attributed to Him, such as guiding, speaking, and glorifying Christ, which are functions consistent with a person.

5. Acts 13:2
Text: "As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them."

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is portrayed as speaking with a personal directive using the pronoun "me" (ἐμοῦ), further affirming His personhood.

6. Acts 15:28
Text: "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things..."

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is described as having the ability to deliberate and make decisions, speaking in the first-person singular as "it seemed good to the Holy Ghost."

7. Romans 8:26-27
Text: "Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God."

Syntax: The pronoun "he" (αὐτός, masculine) is used for the Holy Spirit, showing the Spirit's personal role in interceding for believers.

8. 1 Corinthians 2:10-11
Text: "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God."

Syntax: The Spirit is described as a person who "searches" and knows the things of God, using the masculine pronoun "he" implicitly in the context.

9. Ephesians 4:30
Text: "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

Syntax: The command to "grieve not" assumes the Holy Spirit is a personal being who can experience grief, reinforcing His personhood.

10. 1 Peter 1:11
Text: "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is referred to as having a personal action of testifying and signifying, once again pointing to His personhood.

11. 1 John 5:6
Text: "This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth."

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is described as bearing witness with a masculine pronoun, indicating personal agency.

12. Revelation 2:7
Text: "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches..."

Syntax: The Spirit speaks to the churches using the masculine pronoun "he," emphasizing His personal role in communication.

Conclusion on the Syntax
In all of the above verses, the Holy Spirit is consistently referred to with the masculine singular pronoun "he" (ἐκεῖνος or αὐτός), signifying a personal identity rather than an impersonal force or influence.

These texts affirm the personal nature of the Holy Spirit, highlighting His actions, decisions, teaching, guiding, speaking, and interceding on behalf of believers. This syntactical usage aligns with the biblical understanding of the Holy Spirit as a distinct person within the Godhead, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Son.

Accept it or reject it-you are playing with fire.

J.

 

[face2face]

The personhood of the Holy Spirit is a significant doctrine in Christian theology, and several verses in both the New Testament and Old Testament (via the Septuagint) highlight the personal attributes of the Holy Spirit. Specifically, the Holy Spirit is referred to using personal pronouns, including the masculine singular "He" (Ἐκεῖνος in Greek), indicating His personhood as distinct from an impersonal force or power.

Below is a list of key verses that speak of the Holy Spirit's personhood and use the pronoun "He".

1. John 14:16-17
Text: "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

Spirit of Truth comes from the Father and it is He who dwells in us by His Spirit.

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is referred to as "he" (ἐκεῖνος in Greek, meaning "he, that one") as the Comforter, emphasizing the personal nature of the Spirit.

2. John 14:26
Text: "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

Spirit of Truth comes from the Father and it is He who dwells in us by His Spirit.

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is referred to with the pronoun "he" (ἐκεῖνος), indicating a personal agent who teaches and reminds the disciples.

3. John 15:26
Text: "But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."

Spirit of Truth comes from the Father and it is He who dwells in us by His Spirit.

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is again described with the masculine pronoun "he" (ἐκεῖνος), emphasizing His personal action in testifying about Jesus.

4. John 16:13-14
Text: "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you."

Syntax: The Holy Spirit is referred to as "he" (ἐκεῖνος), and multiple actions are attributed to Him, such as guiding, speaking, and glorifying Christ, which are functions consistent with a person.

He is personified

Would you have Wisdom to be a woman Johann?

• Proverbs 1:20-21 (ESV)
  "Wisdom cries aloud in the street, in the markets she raises her voice; at the head of the noisy streets she cries out; at the entrance of the city gates she speaks:"
  • In this passage, Wisdom is portrayed as crying out and calling to people in public places, inviting them to embrace understanding and knowledge.
• Proverbs 8:1-3 (ESV)
  "Does not wisdom call? Does not understanding raise her voice? On the heights, beside the way, at the crossroads she takes her stand; beside the gates in front of the town, at the entrance of the portals she cries aloud:"
  • Here, Wisdom is again depicted as a woman calling out to all who will listen, urging them to pursue wisdom and understanding.
• Proverbs 8:22-31 (ESV)
  "The Lord possessed me at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth...When he established the heavens, I was there..."
• Matthew 11:19 (ESV)
  "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."
  • In this verse, Wisdom is personified again, with "her deeds" being used to justify the actions of Jesus.
• Luke 7:35 (ESV)
  "Yet wisdom is justified by all her children."
  • Wisdom is once more personified as a woman whose actions are validated by the outcomes of her work, showing that wisdom is revealed through what it produces.

Would you have us beleive the Wisdom of God is a fourth person of the Godhead and a woman?

Conclusion on the Syntax
In all of the above verses, the Holy Spirit is consistently referred to with the masculine singular pronoun "he" (ἐκεῖνος or αὐτός), signifying a personal identity rather than an impersonal force or influence.

These texts affirm the personal nature of the Holy Spirit, highlighting His actions, decisions, teaching, guiding, speaking, and interceding on behalf of believers. This syntactical usage aligns with the biblical understanding of the Holy Spirit as a distinct person within the Godhead, co-equal and co-eternal with the Father and the Son.

Accept it or reject it-you are playing with fire.

J.

In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit is often personified using personal pronouns like "He."

1. John 14:16-17 (ESV)
   "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you."
   • In this passage, Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as "he," indicating a personal nature.
2. John 15:26 (ESV)
   "But when the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, he will bear witness about me."
   • Here, the Holy Spirit is referred to as "he," indicating that the Holy Spirit is testifying about Jesus.
3. John 16:13-14 (ESV)
   "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you."
   • In these verses, Jesus speaks about the Holy Spirit's role and repeatedly uses "he" to describe the Spirit's (God's) actions.
4. Romans 8:16 (ESV)
   "The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God."
   • In this verse, the Holy Spirit is referred to as "he" with the personal pronoun "himself," further personifying the Holy Spirit. This allows us to draw close to God by relating to Him through His Spirit.
5. Romans 8:26 (ESV)
   "Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words."
   • Again, the Holy Spirit is referred to as "he," emphasizing the Spirit's role (of God) in interceding for believers.

These verses illustrate how the Holy Spirit is consistently referred to using the personal pronoun "he," affirming the personal nature of the Holy Spirit in Scripture.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann

Just out of curiosity, when Jesus gave commandments by the Holy Spirit (as seen in Acts 1:1-2), was this an instance of one "co-equal" commanding another "co-equal"?

In your view, does this imply that Christ is also subservient to the Holy Spirit?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Johann

Why is the Holy Spirit not depicted as sitting on God's throne? (See Rev. 7:10 - "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb." Also Acts 7:55, 56).

Why is the Holy Spirit not mentioned in these instances?

 

[face2face]

@Johann

Last one for tonight

The divine order is outlined in 1 Corinthians 11:3: "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."

Why is the Holy Spirit not mentioned here if He were a person?

 

[Johann]

These verses illustrate how the Holy Spirit is consistently referred to using the personal pronoun "he," affirming the personal nature of the Holy Spirit in Scripture.

Thanks for agreeing with me, steel manning my case as you just repeat what I already have said-the biblical truth.

J.

 

[face2face]

Thanks for agreeing with me, steel manning my case as you just repeat what I already have said-the biblical truth.

J.

Correct, the personification of the Spirit and the use of personal pronouns are given to bring us closer to God and His Spirit Word. How do you expect His Power to be communicated?

He uses personification everywhere in His Word - I honestly thought with all your commentaries you would know this basic skill.

F2F