OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[Behold]

You haven't addressed anything I've said, you've merely done what you've claimed I've done--ie, posted your cherry-picked verses and shared your anti-Scriptural thoughts

Again...

You just have to realize that the reason that everyone is a "sinner" is because the Law and Commandments (Moses) have defined us all this way.

We go to the Cross, because we have trusted in Christ, to be forgiven our sin.... because the Law and 10 Commandments, have defined every person in this world, as a "sinner".
So, that is the Law and 10 Commandments doing that...to us all, as that is the "curse of the Law"..

And Jesus has "redeemed us from the curse of the Law".. once His Blood and Death has forgiven all our sin..

Thats Reality for the born again.

 

[GracePeace]

Again...

You just have to realize that the reason that everyone is a "sinner" is because the Law and Commandments (Moses) have defined us all this way.

Nope : sin was in the world, and death reigned over the sinners (men died), even though they did not have the Law. Or do we have a record of men not dying in the many hundreds of years before the Law of Moses was given? Now, again, the fact that men died because they were sinners even before the Law was given proves my point : even without the Law, as Christians are not under Law, men are subject to death if they sin.

 

[Behold]

Nope : sin was in the world, and death reigned over the sinners (men died),

Sin came into this world of Humanity, through adam..

It existed in this world before Adam was created as Satan's Nature, and that is the "nature of sin".. "the sin nature".

See, sin (iniquity) was found In Lucifer, while he was in Heaven, and once he "fell" = to earth, He brought it with Him.

So, Adam became this "nature" as "the Adamic Nature".. (The sin nature)... .and from Him.. through Him sin came to us all.

This is why the NT says we were "made sinners"......and when we become Christians we are "made righteous".

 

[GracePeace]

Again...

You just have to realize that the reason that everyone is a "sinner" is because the Law and Commandments (Moses) have defined us all this way.

We go to the Cross, because we have trusted in Christ, to be forgiven our sin.... because the Law and 10 Commandments, have defined every person in this world, as a "sinner".
So, that is the Law and 10 Commandments doing that...to us all, as that is the "curse of the Law"..

And Jesus has "redeemed us from the curse of the Law".. once His Blood and Death has forgiven all our sin..

Thats Reality for the born again.

Nope : Paul describes a group that is "under Law" (the Jews), and he describes another group that is "without Law" (non-Jews). It really is quite a simple conclusion to arrive at : it is not possible that all men are "under Law", since there is a group that is "without Law". "Not sure" why you complicate matters.

 

[GracePeace]

Sin came into this world through adam..

It exist in this world as Satan's Nature, and that is the "nature of sin".. "the sin nature".

So, Adam became this "nature" as "the Adamic Nature".. .and from Him.. through Him sin came to us all.

This is why the NT says we were "made sinners"......and when we become Christians we are "made righteous".

Whether or not men are "under Law" is irrelevant with respect to whether or not they have to pay the price for sinning (ie, death)--Gentiles, who were "without Law", died bc of sin, and Christians, who are "not under Law" will die if they walk in sin, even if you wanted to claim the Law could no longer define them as sinners (the Law didn't define the Gentiles, who were "without Law", as "sinners"--especially not in the many hundreds of years prior to the giving of the Law).

 

[Behold]

Nope : Paul describes a group that is "under Law" (the Jews), and he describes another group that is "without Law" (non-Jews).

Paul is teaching that God gave the Law , initially to the Jews, who are God's Chosen.

Gentiles were never this.. so, they didnt know anything about Moses or His Laws and Commandments, which is explaining they were without it.

And now that Jesus has come.......all who are "under the Law".......who have been defined as a sinner......and that is "ALL have sinned, there is none righteous, no not one"........ can become.. "NOT under the Law, but under Grace".

Its interesting that you are teaching your nonsense and on another Thread there is another "so called Christian" who is teaching that "only the Jews can be born again"..

So, you 2, are not what we refer to as "mainline denomination" Theology people. @GracePeace .

I know you wont name your Cult (denomination).

See you there.

 

[GracePeace]

Sin came into this world of Humanity, through adam..

It existed in this world before Adam was created as Satan's Nature, and that is the "nature of sin".. "the sin nature".

See, sin (iniquity) was found In Lucifer, while he was in Heaven, and once he "fell" = to earth, He brought it with Him.

So, Adam became this "nature" as "the Adamic Nature".. (The sin nature)... .and from Him.. through Him sin came to us all.

This is why the NT says we were "made sinners"......and when we become Christians we are "made righteous".

With or without the Law, men died for sinning, so your entire false argument is moot : men die because of sin, even all the hundreds of years prior to the giving of the Law (which you vainly claim is needed to "define" men as sinners--then you want to use this vain false logic to claim Christians can no longer be defined as sinners because they're not under Law).

 

[GracePeace]

Paul is teaching that God gave the Law , initially to the Jews, who are God's Chosen.

Gentiles were never this.. so, they didnt know anything about Moses or His Laws and Commandments, which is explaining they were without it.

And now that Jesus has come.......all who are "under the Law".......who have been defined as a sinner......and that is "ALL have sinned, there is none righteous, no not one"........ can become.. "NOT under the Law, but under Grace".

Its interesting that you are teaching your nonsense and on another Thread there is another "so called Christian" who is teaching that "only the Jews can be born again"..

So, you 2, are not what we refer to as "mainline denomination" Theology people. @GracePeace .

I know you wont name your Cult (denomination).

See you there.

There is a group that is "under Law", and there is a group that is "without Law" : not all men were "under Law". Period.

 

[Behold]

Whether or not men are "under Law" is irrelevant

being under the law, is only irrelevant to people who dont understand The Cross.

Listen, every person is a sinner, and that status is defined ONLY by the Law and Commandments.

 

[GracePeace]

being under the law, is only irrelevant to people who dont understand The Cross.

Listen, every person is a sinner, and that status is defined ONLY by the Law and Commandments.

OK Well I guess our discussion has run its course; I trust your vanity will be evident to readers.

 

[Behold]

There is a group that is "under Law", and there is a group that is "without Law" : not all men were "under Law". Period.

Look again..


You have Adam... and he was not under the Law, because there was NO Law of Moses or 10 Commandments, in the Garden of Eden.

See that?

The reason that Adam and Even had iniquity........yet there was no Moses's Law... is because the word of God had told them.>>"dont do THAT"...."dont'eat of that Tree"..
So, that was spoken LAW, and they were under it......but that is not Moses's Law, as it came much later.

So, notice this...

"where there is no Law, there is no Transgression......

See that?
That means, that until there is a LAW or Commandment that says.>>"DON'T Do that'.. then if you do it, its not sin, because there is no Law or Commandment that can define your deed as "sin".

See it?

Now, How is it that everyone currently in the USA and everyone on the EARTH... is a "sinner".... if they are not under the Law of Moses, and under the 10 Commandments, as only these can define carnaly: = as sin.?

A.) They are ALL under it, and that is why they need to Trust In Christ, to be forgiven their sin,(so defined by Moses's Law and Commandments)>..= and then become born again = """not under the Law, but under Grace"".

Now, one final thing for you, ....

Paul is the "Apostle to the GENTILES".....and currently, before the Tribulation starts....all of humanity is in the "TIME of the Gentiles" and all of them and all of the rest, are "under the Law"... .. have no righteousness.......and need their sins forgiven that are defined as sin by Moses's Law and Commandments..........so that they can be born again as a "new creation in Christ"... = "Not under the Law.. but under Grace".

Paul came to tell us that.
And now i just told you. @GracePeace

Believe it.

 

[GracePeace]

Look again..


You have Adam... and he was not under the Law, because there was NO Law of Moses or 10 Commandments, in the Garden of Eden.

See that?

The reason that Adam and Even had iniquity........yet there was no Moses's Law... is because the word of God had told them.>>"dont do THAT"...."dont'eat of that Tree"..
So, that was spoken LAW, and they were under it......but that is not Moses's Law, as it came much later.

So, notice this...

"where there is no Law, there is no Transgression......

See that?
That means, that until there is a LAW or Commandment that says.>>"DON'T Do that'.. then if you do it, its not sin, because there is no Law or Commandment that can define your deed as "sin".

See it?

Now, How is it that everyone currently in the USA and everyone on the EARTH... is a "sinner".... if they are not under the Law of Moses, and under the 10 Commandments, as only these can define carnaly: = as sin.?

A.) They are ALL under it, and that is why they need to Trust In Christ, to be forgiven their sin,(so defined by Moses's Law and Commandments)>..= and then become born again = """not under the Law, but under Grace"".

Now, one final thing for you, ....

Paul is the "Apostle to the GENTILES".....and currently, before the Tribulation starts....all of humanity is in the "TIME of the Gentiles" and all of them and all of the rest, are "under the Law"... .. have no righteousness.......and need their sins forgiven that are defined as sin by Moses's Law and Commandments..........so that they can be born again as a "new creation in Christ"... = "Not under the Law.. but under Grace".

Paul came to tell us that.
And now i just told you. @GracePeace

Believe it.

"Death reigned even over those who did not sin in the manner of Adam [transgress]".
Paul says there is a group "under Law", and there is a group "without Law"; you deny that.
The problem is not mine.

 

[Christian Soldier]

So God fails . . . ???

No God never fails in anything, so this means that your understanding of God is fundamentally flawed. God succeeds in everything He does, this must mean that those who reject the gospel message, do so because God has not granted them saving faith.

If you believe that God left salvation, in the hands of fallen sinners, then you reject everything God said about salvation. God said the following things about salvation, please let me know why you reject what God has said.

Romans 9:15-24
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

I don't see how you can superimpose your "man centered, free choice gospel message", to the above verses of scripture. The only way you can do it, is to reject Gods Word and make Him a liar.

 

[Johann]

No God never fails in anything, so this means that your understanding of God is fundamentally flawed. God succeeds in everything He does, this must mean that those who reject the gospel message, do so because God has not granted them saving faith.

If you believe that God left salvation, in the hands of fallen sinners, then you reject everything God said about salvation. God said the following things about salvation, please let me know why you reject what God has said.

Romans 9:15-24
For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.”

John 15:16
You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

John 6:37-40
All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

Ephesians 1:3-14
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will.

John 10:27-29
My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

I don't see how you can superimpose your "man centered, free choice gospel message", to the above verses of scripture. The only way you can do it, is to reject Gods Word and make Him a liar.

Man, left to his own devices, will not seek after Messiah or the Father, as indicated in Scripture:

Romans 3:10-11: "As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

While I affirm the concept of free will, if a choice runs counter to the will of God, it cannot truly be called free, for true freedom aligns with the truth and purpose God has ordained (John 8:36).

J.

 

[Stumpmaster]

No God never fails in anything, so this means that your understanding of God is fundamentally flawed.

Obviously my rhetoric went over your head so I won't read further than this.

 

[Hobie]

According to this documentary, OSAS originated with the Gnostics, was constantly being refuted by the early church, and was unknown in the Church until the 5th century when Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, a former Gnostic, brought it into the church.

00:01:36 "Believers in OSAS invariably take the high ground historically as though they're defending the historic faith. This is incredibly dishonest. That's because before Augustine's novel teachings in the early 5th century, absolutely no one in the early church believed in once saved always saved. I know of no patristic scholar or church historian who disputes that fact."

00:03:22 "The early church fathers actually warned against the idea of OSAS because that doctrine was not found within any Christian churches at the time; it was found among the Gnostics. ... in their refutations of the Gnostics, they would mention how these Gnostics believed that you could never fall away from the faith..."

There was much confusion and corruption during that period in the church and we see the results I'm some of what crept in...

 

[GracePeace]

There was much confusion and corruption during that period in the church and we see the results I'm some of what crept in...

Well, bottom line is it was only found among the Gnostics... ?

 

[Christian Soldier]

Obviously my rhetoric went over your head so I won't read further than this.

Your rhetoric didn't go over my head, but I did expose your claim that God is fallible as being false

 

[Christian Soldier]

Man, left to his own devices, will not seek after Messiah or the Father, as indicated in Scripture:

Romans 3:10-11: "As it is written: There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."

John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

While I affirm the concept of free will, if a choice runs counter to the will of God, it cannot truly be called free, for true freedom aligns with the truth and purpose God has ordained (John 8:36).

J.

I appreciate your effort to shed light on the "free will concept". To put it in a nutshell, only those in Christ are free. But this freedom is not a license to sin, it actually freedom from bondage to sin and Satan.

Those who have not been regenerated and born again, have no freedom at all, they're slaves to sin and Satan and they have no hope of ever being set free, unless God liberates them and sets them free.

Everyone is born with a sin nature, we inherited from our parents "Adam and Eve", who became Satan's servants when they sinned. Nobody has the power to change the nature they were born with, Gods Word confirms this in; Jeremiah 13:23, the prophet Jeremiah asks if people can change their nature. The verse compares the inability of a leopard to change its spots to the inability of people to change their nature.

If we can't change the nature we are born with, then we don't actually have any "free will", and we can only live according to our nature. 1 Corinthians 2:14-16 But the natural man (unconverted, not born again) receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If God doesn't intervene and save the natural man from his (spiritually) dead state, he will remain dead and he will be condemned to spend eternity in hell. In summary, salvation is of the Lord. Man is utterly powerless to do anything to save himself.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Your rhetoric didn't go over my head, but I did expose your claim that God is fallible as being false

You were mistaken in thinking I was making the claim you claim I was making.