David in NJ
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You have things backwards, as you always place human BEFORE God.
Please read Genesis chapter 1 tonight
Exploring Trinitarian Logic
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Please read Genesis chapter 1 tonight
face2face
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Another good question!
God is yet to give it to him...be paitent RLT its coming!
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.” Romans 11
What's odd about the red rext? Look up Isaiah 59:20
Lets see if we can study the Bible together!
What does Paul do to Isaiah 59:20 subtle! But important!
F2F
@Aunty Jane this teaching is hidden concealed from the JW's but proves Christ will return to sit upon Davids throne on earth!
David in NJ
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David in NJ
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And that's How God overcame temptation and sin for us = HE came to earth = Immanuel = His Story
David in NJ
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RLT63
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face2face
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Sorry, David – this is your narrative, not the inspired Word.
Yahweh is a Mighty God, capable of raising an obedient Son in sinful flesh and conquering it honestly and openly.
Your god has no victory.
F2F
face2face
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David in NJ
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YHWH is the WORD was God and came to earth
This is what you MISSED last night when I posted Psalm 16
Preserve me, O El,
for in You I take refuge.
I said to the YHWH, “You are my Adonai;
apart from You I have no good thing.”
David in NJ
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i was going to sleep and then stayed a little longer = sleep typing
David in NJ
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Wrangler
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Two things: abdicate the OT and the explicit verses. A dead giveaway of the intellectual corruption of such assertions is the need from the start to side step Jewish monotheism, which rejects the trinity to this day. Jesus was a Jew, born under the law, required to believe in this formulation of a single God (not a 3-in-1 god)
Explicit statements supersede implicit statements and there are countless explicit statements one must ignore for their basic claim to have any validity. For instance, IF the trinity was implicitly understood, why are there ubiquitous juxtapositions with God - in his unitarian nature - and Jesus, e.g., God (not the Father) so loved the world?
Only God the Father is explicitly acknowledged. And this is acknowledged in every Epistle. One verse even say there is only God the Father. It is difficult to conceive of a stronger anti-trinitarian statement in as few words as this. Ask them to come up with one.
Also, explicit and repeated is the notion that Jesus is a man. Does this ‘imply’ nothing to these folks? Said differently, consider all the verse that imply the trinity is false. What kind of fair argument allows only evidence for one side?
Finally, the assertion is wrong as implication is what the author intended. These trinitarians are inferring or more precisely reading into Unitarian text their trinitarian doctrine. Keep in mind, every Biblical author, with the possible exception of Luke was Jewish, who affirmed Jesus assessment of the most important commandment, the Sh’ma (REV), which begins:
Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone
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Magdala
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Jesus had asked the Pharisees a challenging question of His own: whose son is the Christ? They answered, rightly, that the Christ is the descendant of David. Jesus didn't correct them, but He did challenge the implications of their answer.
Ps. 110, written by David, was about the Messiah. In the first verse of that psalm, king David calls the Christ "Lord." Now, Jesus quotes the verse to show what He means (Ps. 110:1). Breaking it down, David writes that "the Lord" [God] said to [David's] Lord [Christ] to sit at [God's] right hand [the place of greatest honor]. Jesus is asking why David would call his "son," meaning his own descendant, "my Lord" who sits at the right hand of God, unless Christ has some significant status beyond being David's son.
I'm just sharing information... that happens to be Truth....
What does the missionary book (Acts) of the early church say about Jesus and Lord? One could say it would be a safe place to see how the apostolic Christians understood it. A good place to turn. The book of Acts present us with a clear and unified testimony of the apostles’ witness. It is significant that nowhere in Acts do the apostles say that believing that Jesus is Jehovah, the Lord God, is an essential requirement for salvation. (as you agree) Peter, who had been given the keys to the kingdom, called Jesus "a man accredited to you by God" (Acts 2:22).
The Bible states that after his sermon on the day of Pentecost about 3000 persons were saved. If Peter thought it was essential to believe that Jesus was Almighty God he did not say so in his first sermon. If it is necessary to believe in the Trinity to enter the Kingdom of God then Peter forgot to mention this essential fact on this definitive day. This proves is not necessary to believe that Christ is God in order to be saved. When preaching to these Jews Peter presents a Messiah who is the descendent of King David (v.30). He is one who would have rotted and decayed in the grave like any other man had not God raised him up again (v.24-32). Because God authenticated "this Jesus" by resurrecting him (thus reversing the national verdict accusing him of blasphemy, that is, claiming to be God's Messiah), Jesus is now "exulted to the right hand of God" (v. 33). God has thus sealed "this Jesus whom you crucified" (v.36) and declared him as "Lord and Messiah" to the nation of Israel and "for all who are far off" (the Gentiles as well, v.39). The proof of his Messiahship is that the Holy Spirit has been poured out. Every Jew believed that the dawning of the new Messianic age would usher in a mighty outpouring of God Spirit. This Jewish audience knew that Peter statements meant that the God of their fathers, Jehovah, had raise Jesus in fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies concerning the Christ. Their understanding that "Jesus is Lord" was governed by their understanding of the messianic fulfillment of Psalms 110 as Peter quotes it in Acts here. No unitary monotheistic Jew would have taken Peter statements in Acts 2 to mean that Messiah was Jehovah God. It must be interpreted with Hebrew eyes this same pattern is followed throughout Acts.
In the next chapter, Peter calls Jesus anything but the Lord God. Jesus is called God’s "servant" twice (Acts 3:13, 26); God's "Christ" (v. 18:20); "the Prince of life" (a title nowhere in the Bible applied to God, v.15); the "prophets" whom Moses predicted (v.22,23). In fact, Peter is very careful not to confuse the identity of the Lord God and this Jesus who is the Lord Messiah. Note verse 13 where Peter says, "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers as glorified his servant Jesus, the one whom you delivered up, and disowned in the presence of pilate, when he had decided to release him." This same expression " The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" appears in Exodus 3:15 where God tells Moses to announce to the people that "The LORD [YHWH], they got of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, has sent me to you" (Ex 3:15). The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob equals the LORD (Jehovah). Here in Acts 3:13 it is "The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers" who has now "glorified his servant Jesus."
Is Jesus then the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers? Absolutely not! This would make complete nonsense of the text. The God of Abraham glorified who? Himself? No: His servant Jesus. Jesus is not the God of Abraham. Jesus is not Jehovah, the LORD. He is God anointed one, God's servant. (God's Christ)
In Acts 10 the same distinction appears again. Peter says, "You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how he went about doing good, and healing all who were oppressed by the devil; for God was with him" (v. 38). Who anointed Jesus? God anointed Jesus of Nazareth. And the whole purpose of anointing somebody is so they might receive the power and ability to fulfill their commission. If I said, "The king anointed the prince" you would not possibly think the prince was the king. In the same way Jesus is the "Prince of life" (Acts 3:15) whom God anointed. Jesus applied in Messianic prophecy of Isaiah 61 to himself when he read these words in the synagogue after his baptism by John: "The spirit of the Lord God is upon me, because the LORD [Jehovah] has anointed me" (v.61; Luke 4:16-21). The person who is anointed is not the LORD Jehovah. God does not need to anoint God! Jehovah God anoints Jesus the Messiah. That is what Jesus claims for himself, and what Peter announces time and again.
I do not have the time nor the space here to go through every chapter in the book of Acts to prove this. But I encourage you to do to this for yourself. Take a colored marker, and you may well be surprised at the frequency and consistency in this topic. What was the message that Paul preach after his dramatic conversion experience? That Jesus is Jehovah God? Of course not, for his message was consistent with the rest of the apostles’ testimony: "Immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogue, saying, ‘He is the son of God’" (Acts 19:20). In fact, Paul kept increasing in strength "and confounding the Jews who lived at Damascus site proving that this Jesus is the Messiah" (v.22). To be the son of God is to be the Messiah: Same message! In fact, while you're at it, take the same colored marker and go through the rest of the New Testament. You'll be amazed at the distinction the Scriptures make between God the Father and the lord Jesus Christ. (You could try 1Cor. 1:3; 8:6; 2 Cor. 1:2; Phil. 1:2; 4:20; 1 Thess. 1:1; 3:13; 2 Thess. 1:2; 2:16; 1 Tim. 1:2; 2Tim. 1:2; Titus 1:4; Gal. 1:3.)
In other words, there is no person the whole book of Acts or any other New Testament book that requires you to believe that Jesus is the Lord God, Jehovah, in order to enter the Kingdom. In all the books of Acts there is no preaching of the Trinity. Yet in Acts thousands were saved according to the scriptural record. This should be conclusive proof that the Trinity was not part of early apostolic doctrine.
The confession "Jesus is Lord" must be understood in its Jewish environment and historical time frame. Unfortunately, we have seen, through the pressure of culture and politics, the persona of Jesus has been reshaped into one neither he or his apostles would recognize.
Another Pearl
Really.... I Have to give another Theological Spanking.... This truth is going to hurt your ego...
Psalms 110:1
Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: "Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet."
Psalms 110:1 is a unusual verse. It is referred to in the New Testament 23 times and is thus quoted much more often than any other verse from the Old Testament. It’s importance must not be overlooked. It is a psalm that tells us the relationship between God and Jesus.
Psalms 110:1 is a divine utterance although poorly translated if your version leaves out the original word "oracle". It is “the oracle of Yahweh” (the One God of the Hebrew Bible, of Judaism and New Testament Christianity) to David's lord who is the Messiah, spoken of here 1000 years before he came into existence in the womb of the Virgin Mary.
I want to bring attention to the fact that David's lord is not David's Lord. There should be no capital on the word "lord." The Revised Version of the Bible (1881) corrected the misleading error of other translations which put (and still wrongly put) a capitol L on lord in that verse.
He is not Lord God, because the word in the inspired text is not the word for Deity, but the word for human superior- a human lord, not a Lord who is himself God, but a lord who is the supremely exalted, unique agent of the one God.
The Hebrew word for the status of the son of God and Psalms 110:1 is adoni. This word occurs 195 times in the Hebrew Bible and never refers to God. When God is described as "the Lord" (capital L) a different word, Adonai, appears. Thus the Bible makes a careful distinction between God and man. God is the Lord God (Adonai), or when his personal name is used, Yahweh, and Jesus is his unique, sinless, virginally conceived human son (adoni, my lord, Luke 1:43; 2:11). Adonai is found 449 times in the Old Testament and distinguishes the One God from all others. Adonai is not the word describing the son of God, Jesus, and Psalms 110:1. adoni appears 195 times and refers only to a human (or occasionally an angelic) lord, that is, someone who is not God. This should cut through a lot of complicated post Biblical argumentation and create a making which in subtle ways that secures the simple and most basic Biblical truth, that God is a single person and that the Messiah is the second Adam, "the Man Messiah" (1 Tim. 2:5).
Let's have a look at a few Old Testament verses that show us the clear distinction alluded to here. In Genesis 15:2, Abraham prays to God and says, "O LORD, God [Adonai Yahweh], what will you give me, since I am childless?" In another prayer Abraham's servant addresses God: "O LORD, God of my lord Abraham, please grant me success today" (Gen. 24:12). The second word for "my lord" here is adoni which according to any standard Hebrew lexicon means "Lord," "Master," or "owner." Another example is found in David's speech to his men after he had cut off the hem of King Saul's robe and his conscience bothered him: "So he said to his men, far be it from me because of the Lord [here the word is Yahweh, Lord God] that I should do this thing to my lord [adoni].”
The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, page 157. states… "The form Adoni (‘my lord’), a royal title (Sam. 29:8), is to be carefully distinguished from the divine title Adonai (‘Lord’) used of Yahweh. Adonai the special plural form [the divine title] distinguishes it from adoni [with short vowel] = ‘my lords.’” Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, vol. 3, page 137. States… “lord in the Old Testament is used to translate Adonai when applied to the Divine Being. The [Hebrew] word… has a suffix [with a special pointing] presumably for the sake of distinction... between divine and human appellative.” Wigram, The Englishman’s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament, p. 22. states…
“The form ‘to my lord,’ I’adoni, is never used in the Old Testament as a divine reference… the general excepted fact is that the masoretic pointing distinguishes divine reference (adonai) from human references (adoni).”
“The Hebrew Adonai exclusively denotes the God of Israel. It is attested about 450 times in the Old Testament…Adoni [is] addressed to human beings (Gen 44:7; Num 32:25; 2 Kings 2:19, etc.). We have to assume that the word Adonai received it’s special form to distinguish it from the secular use of adon [i.e. adoni]. The reason why [God is addressed] as Adonai [with long vowel] instead of the normal adon, adoni or adonai [short vowel] may have been to distinguish Yahweh from other gods and from other human Lord's.” from Dictionary of deities and demons in the Bible, p. 531.
If David the Psalmist had expected the Messiah to be the Lord God he would not have used "my lord" (adoni), but the term used exclusively for the one God, Jehovah- Adonai. Unfortunately, though, many English translations which faithfully preserved this distinction elsewhere capitalize the second "lord" only in Psalms 110:1. This gives a misleading impression that the word is a divine title.
Occasionally, it will be objected that this distinction between Adonai and adoni was a late addition to the Hebrew text by the Mesorites around 600 to 700 AD and therefore is not reliable. This objection needs to be considered in the light of the fact that the Hebrew translators of the Septuagint (the LXX) around 250 B.C. recognize and carefully maintained this Hebrew distinction in their work. They never translated the second “lord” of Psalm 110:1 (“my lord,” kyrios mou) to mean the Deity. The first LORD of Psalm 110:1 (the LORD, Ho Kyrios) they always reserve for the one God, Jehovah.
Both the Pharisees and Jesus knew that this inspired verse was crucial in the understanding of the identity of the promised Messiah. Jesus quoted it to show the Messiah would be both the son (descendent) of King David and David's “lord” (see Matt. 22:41-46; Mark 12:35-37; Luke 20:41-44). This key verse, then, quoted more than any other in the New Testament, authorizes the title "lord" for Jesus. Failure to understand this distinction has led to the erroneous idea that whenever the New Testament calls Jesus "Lord" it means he is the Lord God of the Old Testament.
Another Pearl
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From the start of Judaism and later Christianity, the most famous aspect and unique characteristic of the two religions is the fact that they were, and still are monotheistic. Christianity is really the continuation of Judaism. Both religions believe in one, and only one unbegotten God, creator of the universe. There are no other gods in these two faiths.
Isaiah 44:6 - "Thus says the LORD... there is no God but me."
Isaiah 45:5 - "I am the LORD and there is no other, there is no God besides me."
Isaiah 45:6 - "Men may know that there is none besides me. I am the LORD, there is no other."
No one will contest that to a Jew or a Christian, there is only one God. Anything else would simply be considered polytheism. The majority of Christianity believes in one God, but a God that is plural in makeup. There are three persons that constitute this one God. They are three, but yet, they are still all the one God. There is: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
In this post we will be concerned primarily with Trinitarian Christianity’s view of God. Specifically, God the Son.
We all know that God the Son has a Father (God the Father). But the question that must be asked and answered is: can God the Son have a God? Every pastor that I have ever asked this question to has always said "Of course not!" But is that the answer given in Scripture? No, on the contrary. As you will see, the prophesied Messiah in the Old Testament is said to have a God. Then you will see that Jesus the Messiah fulfills those prophesies because he most definitely has a God. If you come to the conclusion that Jesus has a God, then it might be time to rethink and research the Doctrine of the Trinity. Because if God the Son has a God, then there are TWO GODS!
To make this as simple as possible, I am not going to list the huge amount of Scriptures which have God (not "Father") and Jesus in the same sentence, or Scriptures that have God speaking to Jesus, or Jesus speaking to God. We will only be concerned with Scriptures that prove that Jesus has a God.
OLD TESTAMENT MESSIANIC PROPHESIES
Psalm 89:26-28 - "He (the Messiah) shall say of me. "You are my father, my God, my rock, my savior". And I will make him the firstborn."
Micah 5:3-4 - "He (the Messiah) shall stand firm and shepherd his flock by the strength of the LORD, in the Majestic name of the LORD, his God."
Psalm 22:10-11 - "To you I was committed at birth. From my mother’s womb you are my God."
NEW TESTAMENT
Jesus Speaking:
John 20:17 - "I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
Matthew 27:46 - "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
Revelation 3:12 - "Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God."
Revelation 3:2 - "for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God."
Paul:
Ephesians 1:3 - "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Ephesians 1:17 - "I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father..."
2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
2 Corinthians 11:31 - "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ knows, He who is blessed forever, that I do not lie."
Romans 15:6 - "that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
Peter:
1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."
John:
Revelation 1:6 - "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father."
When one reads the preceding verses, there is one thing that is a fact. That Jesus Christ has a God. Jesus speaks of his God, Peter Paul and John mention the God of Jesus Christ. Are they all mistaken? Are we to believe that all these verses are misprints? Are we to suppose that theologians several centuries after Christ knew more about Jesus than Jesus and his Apostles? There is no way around it.
The New American Bible (a Roman Catholic Bible) in a section discussing biblical revelation says,
"It is the very same God who reveals Himself in so many richly divergent ways on every page of the Scriptures. The God of Abraham and Moses and David is the God of Jesus of Nazareth."
Everyone in Jesus’ day knew that Jesus had a God. Even later, people in Rome who did not believe in Jesus knew that he had a God.
Do you believe Jesus has a God... If so you have a problem with your understanding... Now you have two Gods
Speaking of corrupted translations, it's amazing what you can learn in a couple of days how Russell and friends corrupted the almost 2000 years old NT and replaced key verses to degrade Jesus., here we go -
Ex 3:14 - So God said to Moses: “I Will Become What I Choose* to Become.”*+ And he added: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘I Will Become has sent me to you.’” [JW bible]
Ex 3:14 - God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’” [true Bible]
FALSE JW translation, ask any Rabbi, the true experts in Hebrew. But, I had to be changed to negate John 8:58
John 8:58 - Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, before Abraham came into existence, I have been. [JW bible]
John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, 'Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming--I am;' [true Bible]
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word,+ and the Word was with God,+ and the Word was a god. [JW bible]
John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; [true Bible]
John 1:14 - So the Word became flesh [JW bible]
John 1:14 - And the Word became flesh [true Bible]
Aha, and now we see the great Russell trick, 1:1 had to be changed, the Word could not remain God else Jesus was God incarnated, that can't be following Russell and so "The Word was God" was deliberately changed into "the Word was a god" and the world according Russell was okay again.
Man, you have been cheated, big time.
Aunty Jane
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And what Scriptural support do you have for that conclusion? What genetics of the fallen angels would have affected him? He made choices to remain faithful to his God in spite of what everyone else was doing. The Nephilim did not pass on any genetics because they were hybrids……no mention is made of them reproducing…..only their errant fathers could materialize and engage in sex to produce these freaks of nature. They had no right to exist and their influence was destroying the human race. Only Noah and his family remained untainted by the world they lived in…..this was to be the pictorial example for us as Jesus said…..
”For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be.”
”Few“ will be found on the road to life again……when God brings the curtain down on this wicked world…only those who remain “no part“ of it will survive the judgment. (John 18:36)
face2face
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I find it odd how you have convinced yourself John 1:1 holds your beloved Trinity. No mention of the HS - no inter-relational langauge at all!
Simply the Word (Logos) which was with God in from the beginning became Flesh.
In your mind you must have so many notions which you force into this text...or you don't give it a second thought and just blindly accept what you are doing.
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