Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Magdala]

--through the indwelling Holy Spirit-but I understand what you are saying brother.

J.

The Holy Spirit is God, and I said "God's assistance", which not only refers to the Holy Spirit, but also the Father, and the Word (the Son), so you weren't correcting me, but rather leaving out the involvement of the other Persons of the Holy Trinity.

 

[Johann]

The Holy Spirit is God, and I said "God's assistance", so you weren't correcting me, but rather leaving out the involvement of also the Father and the Word (Son).

And I said through the indwelling Ruach Ha-Kodesh and not through our own willpower.

I am correcting you. And I leave nothing out.

J.

 

[Magdala]

And I said through the indwelling Ruach Ha-Kodesh (the Holy Spirit) and not through our own willpower.

I am correcting you. And I leave nothing out.

J.

I didn't say that resisting the temptation of evil is accomplished through willpower alone, but rather willpower and God's assistance. Saying "God's assistance" not only refers to the Holy Spirit, but also the Father, and the Word (the Son), so you weren't correcting me, but rather leaving out the involvement of the other Persons of the Holy Trinity.

 

[David in NJ]

Conquer the temptation of evil as in resist giving in to it. The Word became human, thereby subject to the temptation of evil, and He resisted it, hence why Peter said Jesus didn't commit sins, and that we should follow His example (1 2:21-22). He wouldn't have said that if it was impossible. God showed, as a human, that it's possible for us.

Let us make some corrections together and you will have a more accurate post.

No human can conquer temptation/sin - PERIOD

The Word became flesh = JESUS was not fully human

JESUS was subject to temptation and sin in His flesh.

JESUS resisted because it was HIS Eternal NATURE within HIMSELF being IMMANUEL = God among us.

YES, the 'potential' was there for JESUS to sin in the flesh

Conclusion:
Who then can be SAVED?
Answer/Dilemma : with man this is IMPOSSIBLE
Solution: IMMANUEL - God with us

 

[Johann]

I didn't say that overcoming the temptation of evil is accomplished by willpower alone, but rather willpower and God's assistance. Saying "God's assistance" not only refers to the Holy Spirit, but also the Father, and the Word (Son), so you weren't correcting me, but rather leaving out the involvement of the other Persons of the Holy Trinity.

You are a sensitive fella, maybe a kind of strange fella-will be watching you.

J.

 

[Magdala]

You are a sensitive fella, maybe a kind of strange fella-will be watching you.

J.

What you perceive to be sensitivity is my affinity for accuracy. And, I'm a girl, not a fella.

 

[face2face]

Implied premise is flawed. If he cannot sin, it follows that he cannot be tempted to sin.

I would think the number of T brain cells in this forum maybe combined could see this...

So, either the manmade dogma of not being able to sin is wrong OR Scripture is wrong.

Correct.

 

[face2face]

Humans CANNOT conquer evil/temptation.

Therefore, God sent His Son in the "likeness" of sinful flesh, yet without sin.

Likeness is used as sameness which is why Hebrews 2 makes it very clear

17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[a] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

For what reason David?

Maybe you are not so good are reading forward so try reading backward?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Conquer the temptation of evil as in resist giving in to it. The Word became human, thereby subject to the temptation of evil, and He resisted it, hence why Peter said Jesus didn't commit sins, and that we should follow His example (1 2:21-22). He wouldn't have said that if it was impossible. God showed, as a human, that it's possible for us.

Wow, logic prevails!
Johann doesn't respond well to logic, and a Christ who resembles sins flesh, Johann finds repugnant in every way. As soon as he encounters this truth, his Triune god vanishes!

F2F

 

[face2face]

The idea that a virgin birth somehow changed the nature of Christ is laughable @ProDeo

The accounts of Mary’s pregnancy in Matthew and Luke, Jesus’ humble birth, his childhood, and his human experiences—such as being hungry (Matt 4:2), weary (John 4:6), thirsty (John 19:28), bleeding, and dying—suggest that the inspired Biblical writers portrayed Jesus as human, not divine! In stark contrast, God is presented throughout the Bible as self-existent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Trinitarians try to reconcile this by claiming that Jesus possessed both a human and divine nature united in one body, a concept known as the 'hypostatic union.' They argue that Jesus acted or spoke ‘from his humanity’ or ‘from his deity,’ depending on the context

However, this, like many other aspects of Trinitarianism, is simply an ad hoc workaround that Trinitarians use as scaffolding to support their doctrine.

Do you own such scaffolding Pro?

F2F

 

[Magdala]

Wow, logic prevails!
Johann doesn't respond well to logic, and a Christ who resembles sins flesh, Johann finds repugnant in every way. As soon as he encounters this truth, his Triune god vanishes!

F2F

My saying that Peter's words show that it isn't impossible for us to resist the temptation of evil doesn't negate the Holy Trinity.

 

[David in NJ]

Likeness is used as sameness which is why Hebrews 2 makes it very clear

17 For this reason he had to be made like them,[a] fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

For what reason David?

Maybe you are not so good are reading forward so try reading backward?

F2F

He was fully 'man' in the flesh = Philippians 2:5


Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.


UNLIKE man, the WORD was God and was never created by God.

 

[face2face]

Here is what happens next.

You have those Trinitarians who cannot accept that Christ was tempted in the flesh for no reason, and then there are the die-hard, orthodox, right-wing Trinitarians who refuse to accept that Christ could have sinned.

This division is important in this discussion and its why plenty of T debates have fallen over because the Word loses its relevance to the human condition and its salvation from the lusts and passions of the flesh.

If God is three persons, Christianity loses its necessary connection with God’s people—the Jews—and an essential aspect of the atonement: Jesus’ humanity. Scripture says it was essential for Jesus to be made like us in every way so that he could relate to us and act as our mediator to God.

Now the Unitarians sit back and watch as the Trinitarians unravel in their contradictions.

F2F

 

[face2face]

He was fully 'man' in the flesh = Philippians 2:5


Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
something to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself,
taking the form of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
He humbled Himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross.


UNLIKE man, the WORD was God and was never created by God.

So you God dwelt in Sin's Flesh and was held under the dominion of death?

Looks like you're coming around!

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

So you God dwelt in Sin's Flesh and was held under the dominion of death?

Looks like you're coming around!

F2F

God never dwelt in sin = which means you are still lost in sin if you do not know this!!!

 

[APAK]

There's a mistake the devil has successfully gotten some in to... following philosophy rather than what God says.

Philosophy is nothing more than man kind rejecting the Lord while groping in the dark trying to find truth

It's no wonder so many reject the Truth found in God's Word that tell us He is three and yet He is one all at the same time. View attachment 55402

Well Dan don't over bake the word philosophical...it is meant to mean a question that warrants some thought

 

[David in NJ]

Well Dan don't over bake the word philosophical...it is meant to mean a question that warrants some thought

Maybe he is referring to the type of philosophy that seeks to 'think' deeply without the knowledge of the Truth

 

[APAK]

I am on the same page as Johann, consider John 8

Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.”
Joh 8:57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?”
Joh 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”
Joh 8:59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Jesus referring to the burning bush revelation to Moses

Ex 3:13 Then Moses said to God, “If I come to the people of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is his name?’ what shall I say to them?”
Ex 3:14 God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And he said, “Say this to the people of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

The Jews understood what Jesus was saying about Himself [YHWH] and wanted to stone Him. You, me, if we had been there then maybe we would have picked up stones as well.

The classic false correlation and mixing of a corrupted translation of a verse(s) in Exodus and then into the Greek NT language that have zero to do with each other. I wish you guys would for once understand that you cannot equate these two language expressions as having the same meaning....it will always get you into trouble....I've seen this false explanation and interpretation of this just one verse now for years.

I hope you can find your way to do some deeper study and research on this topic...thx

 

[David in NJ]

The classic false correlation and mixing of a corrupted translation of a verse(s) in Exodus and then into the Greek NT language that have zero to do with each other. I wish you guys would for once understand that you cannot equate these two language expressions as having the same meaning....it will always get you into trouble....I've seen this false explanation and interpretation of this just one verse now for years.

I hope you can find your way to do some deeper study and research on this topic...thx

What about Elohim, which is plural???

 

[APAK]

"I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how am I distressed (agony) until it is accomplished!" (Luke 12:50).

Knowning now that so many think Christ incapable of sin must also imply he suffered no distress and agony in overcoming temptation every day till he finally crucified that flesh on the cross.

Basically, you've created a "choose your own adventure" that disregards the fundamental tenet of Scripture.

You must also believe his baptism was just for show! That his words, "to fulfill all righteousness," were said in vain.

@Wrangler do you realise these people are wasting their time being Christian if they fail to comprehend the living example Christ showed to crucify the flesh if you are in Christ Jesus? Gal 5:24

"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin Heb 4:15

They must remove Christ sympathy & empathy and add to this verse, "who could not sin"

@APAK

Do you think they can see this or have they been blinded and hardened in the same way the Jews cannot see their Messiah?

F2F

The latter, IMO