Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[RLT63]

So are you saying the virgin birth somehow changed his nature?

It makes him unique, not born under sin, not under Adam's curse, no sin nature

 

[David in NJ]

He came in the flesh but he was born of a virgin, the immaculate conception, not born under sin.
Could he have sinned? Good question. I'm sure volumes have been written debating that question

Here, i will add another volume

Was there a potential to sin? = Yes

Could HE of sinned? = No

 

[Johann]

Trinitarians, along with those who deny the sinfulness of the flesh, constitute the antichrist, for they reject two fundamental doctrines of the Word: the nature of flesh and God manifest in that flesh.

The Apostle John showed those who do so deny the Christ.

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. Such a one is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7

You deny Johann that Christ was raised up out of sins flesh to enable God to righteuosly remove it's weakness as God is a God of the Living not the dead!

First, you say Trinitarians reject the nature of flesh and God manifest in it, but that’s simply not true. Trinitarians affirm that Jesus took on full human nature, including flesh, without compromising His divinity. In John 1:14, it says, "The Word became flesh" (Greek: καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο).

The word ἐγένετο means "became" or "came into being," emphasizing that Jesus entered fully into human existence. Trinitarians don’t deny the importance of the flesh; they highlight it because Jesus’ incarnation is central to salvation.

You also referenced 2 John 1:7, where John warns about deceivers who don’t confess that Jesus came in the flesh. The Greek ἐρχόμενον ("coming") is in the present tense, showing that Jesus’ incarnation is a truth that endures. Trinitarians wholeheartedly confess this: Jesus came in the flesh as fully human while remaining fully God. It’s those who deny this dual nature of Christ-His divinity and humanity-who fall under John’s warning.

Now, let’s address your claim about "sins flesh." Are you suggesting that Jesus had sinful flesh?

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was without sin. Look at 2 Corinthians 5:21: "He who knew no sin became sin for us."

Or Hebrews 4:15: "He was tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin."

Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), but that doesn’t mean His flesh was sinful.

The phrase "likeness of sinful flesh" (Greek: ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκὸς ἁμαρτίας) shows He fully entered our human condition without inheriting sin’s corruption.

Finally, you said God is a God of the living, not the dead. I agree. That’s why Jesus’ resurrection matters so much. Romans 6:4 tells us that God raised Jesus’ body from the dead, showing that flesh is not inherently irredeemable. In Philippians 3:21, Paul says our lowly bodies will be transformed to be like Jesus’ glorious body. The resurrection proves that God doesn’t discard flesh; He redeems and glorifies it.

So, far from rejecting the nature of flesh or denying God manifest in it, Trinitarians celebrate it.

Jesus took on human flesh, lived a sinless life, died, and was resurrected in glory to redeem us.

It’s not the Trinitarian view that’s antichrist; it’s the denial of who Jesus truly is-fully God and fully man-that John warns us about in 2 John 1:7.

J.

 

[RLT63]

What is the point yo are trying to make here?

The scriptures are cyrstal clear!

Those verses he quoted just mean that our sins were placed on him on the cross. I don't see. what his point is

 

[David in NJ]

First, you say Trinitarians reject the nature of flesh and God manifest in it, but that’s simply not true. Trinitarians affirm that Jesus took on full human nature, including flesh, without compromising His divinity. In John 1:14, it says, "The Word became flesh" (Greek: καὶ ὁ λόγος σὰρξ ἐγένετο).

The word ἐγένετο means "became" or "came into being," emphasizing that Jesus entered fully into human existence. Trinitarians don’t deny the importance of the flesh; they highlight it because Jesus’ incarnation is central to salvation.

You also referenced 2 John 1:7, where John warns about deceivers who don’t confess that Jesus came in the flesh. The Greek ἐρχόμενον ("coming") is in the present tense, showing that Jesus’ incarnation is a truth that endures. Trinitarians wholeheartedly confess this: Jesus came in the flesh as fully human while remaining fully God. It’s those who deny this dual nature of Christ-His divinity and humanity-who fall under John’s warning.

Now, let’s address your claim about "sins flesh." Are you suggesting that Jesus had sinful flesh?

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus was without sin. Look at 2 Corinthians 5:21: "He who knew no sin became sin for us."

Or Hebrews 4:15: "He was tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin."

Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" (Romans 8:3), but that doesn’t mean His flesh was sinful.

The phrase "likeness of sinful flesh" (Greek: ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκὸς ἁμαρτίας) shows He fully entered our human condition without inheriting sin’s corruption.

Finally, you said God is a God of the living, not the dead. I agree. That’s why Jesus’ resurrection matters so much. Romans 6:4 tells us that God raised Jesus’ body from the dead, showing that flesh is not inherently irredeemable. In Philippians 3:21, Paul says our lowly bodies will be transformed to be like Jesus’ glorious body. The resurrection proves that God doesn’t discard flesh; He redeems and glorifies it.

So, far from rejecting the nature of flesh or denying God manifest in it, Trinitarians celebrate it.

Jesus took on human flesh, lived a sinless life, died, and was resurrected in glory to redeem us.

It’s not the Trinitarian view that’s antichrist; it’s the denial of who Jesus truly is-fully God and fully man-that John warns us about in 2 John 1:7.

J.

Watz-a trintarian???

Is that a New TRIPLE Decker Sandwich???

TRIPLE GRAIN Organic Yeast FREE
ROAST LAMB
SPECIAL Sauce = SECRET Recipe (HEAVENLY)

 

[Scott Downey]

You think I'm not reborn? Must I speak in tongues? Hmm?

J.

No, I think your tired and grasping here, like you said early.

2 Tim 2
24 And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, 25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

 

[face2face]

It makes him unique, not born under sin, not under Adam's curse, no sin nature

So no victory then?

Your God didn’t make a spectacle of that nature, crucify it on the cross, and take away the ordinances that only revealed it to be more and more sinful?

See your issue?

56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinth 15 56

What you are saying is the Law of Sin and Death (Romans 6:23) was not removed in the body of Christ.

You would also believe that sin was not condemned in Christ

3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh Romans 8:3

In whose Flesh did God condemn sin?

How was sin represented in that flesh for God to condemn it?

You have much to learn about the Almighty God and His Righteousness

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

He came in the flesh but he was born of a virgin, the immaculate conception

I learned in Catholic CCD that the immaculate conception was not about Jesus but Mary’s conception.

The conception of Jesus is called The Incarnation. Am I wrong about these terms?

 

[David in NJ]

Those verses he quoted just mean that our sins were placed on him on the cross. I don't see. what his point is

lol - he is trying to make a point that will un-deify the Lord Jesus Christ and attribute Him to having sin in His flesh before the Cross.

 

[Johann]

Watz-a trintarian???

Is that a New TRIPLE Decker Sandwich???

TRIPLE GRAIN Organic Yeast FREE
ROAST LAMB
SPECIAL Sauce = SECRET Recipe (HEAVENLY)

Whey and pea protein with sea grass.

J.

 

[face2face]

lol - he is trying to make a point that will un-deify the Lord Jesus Christ and attribute Him to having sin in His flesh before the Cross.

David - how did God condemn sin in the death of Christ?

What does Paul say!

3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he (God) condemned sin in the flesh.

Where did God condemn sin?
Why was it important God raise a Son out of the fallen line of Adam to be a Second Adam?
How did God condemn sin and remove the Law of Sin and Death from Christ

F2F

 

[RLT63]

David - how did God condemn sin in the death of Christ?

What does Paul say!

3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he (God) condemned sin in the flesh.

Where did God condemn sin?
Why was it important God raise a Son out of the fallen line of Adam to be a Second Adam?
How did God condemn sin and remove the Law of Sin and Death from Christ

F2F

Notice the word "likeness "
and remember how you use it when you're arguing that Jesus is not God

 

[David in NJ]

Whey and pea protein with sea grass.

J.

Sounds like my protein drink

 

[David in NJ]

David - how did God condemn sin in the death of Christ?

What does Paul say!

3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he (God) condemned sin in the flesh.

Where did God condemn sin?
Why was it important God raise a Son out of the fallen line of Adam to be a Second Adam?
How did God condemn sin and remove the Law of Sin and Death from Christ

F2F

Where did God condemn sin?

Genesis chapter 3

Why was it important God raise a Son out of the fallen line of Adam to be a Second Adam?

Genesis chapter 3

How did God condemn sin and remove the Law of Sin and Death from Christ

Genesis chapter 3

 

[face2face]

@David in NJ
@Johann
@Wrangler
@APAK
@ProDeo
@Lizbeth
@RLT63

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin" Heb 4:15

What was the point of Christ being tempted in the flesh if it was impossible for him to sin?

Be interested to see your answers

F2F

 

[David in NJ]

@David in NJ
@Johann
@Wrangler
@APAK
@ProDeo
@Lizbeth
@RLT63

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot be touched with the feelings of our infirmities, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin" Heb 4:15

What was the point of Christ being tempted in the flesh if it was impossible for him to sin?

Be interested to see your answers

F2F

What was the point of Christ being tempted in the flesh if it was impossible for him to sin?

It's like telling a 66.6lb kid that he can have the House if he can lift the the 300lb ROCK over his head.

Elohim the FATHER said: "Go ahead Satan, give it your BEST SHOT"

 

[Johann]

lol - he is trying to make a point that will un-deify the Lord Jesus Christ and attribute Him to having sin in His flesh before the Cross.

It seems there’s some confusion about what it means for Jesus to be our Asham (אָשָׁם, guilt offering) and the idea that He "became sin" on the cross.

In Isaiah 53:10, it is prophesied:
"But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief; if He would render Himself as a guilt offering (אָשָׁם, Asham)."
This identifies Jesus as the fulfillment of the sacrificial system, specifically the Asham, which was an offering to atone for guilt, not the guilt itself. Jesus bore the penalty of sin, but He Himself remained holy and undefiled.

Now, regarding 2 Corinthians 5:21, it says:
"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us."
The Greek phrase here is ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν ("made Him sin"), which is often misunderstood.

In the context of the Hebrew sacrificial system, ἁμαρτία (sin) is better understood as a sin offering (see Leviticus 4:24 in the Septuagint, where the same term is used for sin offerings).

This aligns with the Hebrew understanding of the Asham=Jesus became the offering that dealt with sin,-

Furthermore, consider Deuteronomy 21:23, which says that one hung on a tree is cursed by God. Paul references this in Galatians 3:13, explaining that Jesus took on the curse of the law for us. However, taking on the curse of sin is not the same as becoming sin. The Torah and the prophets make it clear that a guilt offering remains spotless and undefiled; otherwise, it would not be acceptable to God.

Jesus was the Pesach (פֶּסַח), the spotless Lamb (Exodus 12:5; 1 Peter 1:19), whose blood delivers us from judgment. To claim that He "became sin" would contradict His holiness, as Hebrews 4:15 explicitly states:
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin."

In summary, Jesus did not "become sin" in the sense of inheriting or embodying sin. He was the Asham, the guilt offering, the holy and spotless Lamb who bore the consequences of sin without becoming sinful Himself.

To say otherwise misunderstands the profound holiness and perfection of His sacrifice.

Isaiah 53:4-6 describes the suffering servant:
"Surely He has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows... He was pierced for our transgressions; He was crushed for our iniquities."

The Hebrew word for "borne" (נָשָׂא, nasa) conveys the idea of lifting or carrying a burden, not embodying it.

Similarly, "carried" (סָבַל, sabal) indicates taking responsibility for something without internalizing it.

2 Corinthians 5:21 says:
"For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

In the Greek, ἁμαρτίαν ἐποίησεν (literally, "made Him sin") is best understood in the context of the Hebrew sacrificial system, where sin (ἁμαρτία, hamartia) often refers to a sin offering (e.g., Leviticus 4:24 in the Septuagint).

Jesus became the offering that dealt with sin.

Hebrews 4:15 affirms Christ's sinlessness:
"He was tempted in every way as we are, yet without sin."

The phrase χωρὶς ἁμαρτίας ("without sin") unequivocally states that Jesus did not become sinful, even as He bore the weight of humanity’s sin.

2. Jesus Dealt with Sin’s Power, Guilt, and Consequences

Romans 8:3 explains the purpose of Jesus’ incarnation:
"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh."

The phrase ἐν ὁμοιώματι σαρκὸς ἁμαρτίας ("in the likeness of sinful flesh") emphasizes that while Jesus fully participated in human nature, His flesh was not sinful. He "condemned sin in the flesh," meaning He rendered sin powerless and dealt with it judicially.

1 Peter 2:24 says:
"He Himself bore our sins in His body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness." The phrase "bore our sins" (Greek: ἀνήνεγκεν) refers to Jesus carrying the penalty and judgment of sin, not becoming sin itself.

3. Jesus’ Role as the Perfect Sacrifice
The sacrificial system in the Torah required that offerings be unblemished and spotless (e.g., Exodus 12:5; Leviticus 1:3). If Jesus had "become sin" in a literal sense, He would no longer have been a perfect sacrifice, disqualifying Him from atoning for sin.

As the Asham (guilt offering, אָשָׁם) of Isaiah 53:10, Jesus fulfilled this requirement. The guilt offering was holy, set apart, and acceptable to God-it did not take on the nature of sin itself but bore the penalty on behalf of the sinner.

4. Victory Over Sin and Death
Colossians 2:14-15 shows that Jesus dealt decisively with sin:
"Having canceled the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands, this He set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in Him."

Jesus’ death and resurrection destroyed the power of sin, fulfilling His mission without compromising His sinless nature.

1 Corinthians 15:56-57:
"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Jesus dealt with sin itself, defeating its power and granting freedom to believers.

Jesus fully dealt with sin itself-its guilt, power, and consequences-without becoming sinful. He bore the penalty of sin as the perfect, spotless Lamb of God (ἀμνὸς τοῦ Θεοῦ) and fulfilled the role of the Asham guilt offering, satisfying God’s justice and securing our redemption.

To say He "became sin" in a literal sense misunderstands both the nature of His atonement and the biblical portrayal of His sinless perfection.

@face2face is out of the picture.

J.

 

[Johann]

Sounds like my protein drink

Per kind favor of @Hepzibah.

J.

 

[Johann]

Notice the word "likeness "
and remember how you use it when you're arguing that Jesus is not God

Sound, biblical reasoning @RLT63.

J.

 

[face2face]

In the context of the Hebrew sacrificial system, ἁμαρτία (sin) is better understood as a sin offering (see Leviticus 4:24 in the Septuagint, where the same term is used for sin offerings).

Was your God the sin offering Johann?

What made Christ a suitable sin offering?

If the blood of bull and goats did not cut it, what would?

F2F