THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[Wrangler]

You haven’t presented any scriptures nor answers to my post.

Yes, I most certainly did. You should won't accept it. Not sure how you feel Scripture answers the question of there being Arian ascendency and and Arian council that formed an Arian creed. Also, feel free to educate yourself. I told you the book that contains this information. If you don't want to read it, that's on you.

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus said “true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth” (John 4:23); Jehovah’s Witnesses heed Jesus’ counsel- and His commands… we do not join the world in its wars, killing anyone… and as a group, we enjoy God’s Spirit & blessing.

Do you think anyone who is outright disobedient to God, would get a blessing or anything from Him?

I think we can be disobedient out of ignorance my friend..imo the Spirit showed me my arguing last night, as I’ve been feeling really rough ,even crying over how I feel, asking God to show me why I feel this way, I got this.

Paul lists what grieves the Holy Spirit in the surrounding verses: Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth (v.29), eschew all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking (v.31).



I didn’t even know I was angry, that’s how ignorant I was, Praise God, I honestly believe he took all anger from me last night...I guess time will tell my friend.
I feel like a new person this morning, I feel so happy in my spirit..

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus said “true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth” (John 4:23); Jehovah’s Witnesses heed Jesus’ counsel- and His commands… we do not join the world in its wars, killing anyone… and as a group, we enjoy God’s Spirit & blessing.

Beautiful words..,Praising God our Father...Amen!!

 

[Scott Downey]

Genesis chapter is the 'Beginning of Creation'


Elohim/plural had no beginning
FATHER = no beginning
WORD = no beginning
HOLY SPIRIT = no beginning

"Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Us - no beginning
Our - no beginning
Our - no beginning



YES - Many "sons" have followed in the past 2,000 Years = John 1:10-13

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

He the Word made the world.
The Word was made flesh
God the Word was made flesh and that flesh died for us

Everything confirms this in scripture, and because HE made this sacrifice for US, WE can have eternal life and not perish in hell.

Only our God could do this for us, no man, the sacrifice had to be the greatest one ever possible for us to obtain righteous standing with God.

We He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present US holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight.

Colossians 1

13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and [c]conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption [d]through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or [e]principalities or [f]powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

Reconciled in Christ​

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Somehow this has been hidden from some people's sight.....who have been blinded....

 

[A Freeman]

If that is your interpretation than please don't stop at verse 15 -

Kol 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.
Kol 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Kol 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Kol 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Kol 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Then you must also believe Christ = YHWH.

Colossians 1:16 For by Him (Father, the "I AM") were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in Earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him (Father, the "I AM"), and for him (Prince Michael/Christ):

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spoke unto them, saying, All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in earth.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

1 Corinthians 15:23-28
15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
15:24 Then [cometh] The End, when he shall have delivered up The Kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
15:25 For He (Father, the "I AM") must reign, till He (Father, the "I AM") hath put all enemies under his (Prince Michael's/Christ's) feet (Ps. 110:1).
15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
15:27 For He (Father, the "I AM") hath put all things under his (Prince Michael's/Christ's) feet. But when He saith all things are put under [him, it is] manifest that He (Father, the "I AM") is excepted, which did put all things under him (Prince Michael's/Christ's).
15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him (Father, the "I AM") that put all things under him (Prince Michael/Christ), that God (Father, the "I AM") may be all in all.

Father = God (Whose Name in Hebrew is "YHWH" or, in English the "I AM")

Christ/Messiah = the first-created Son OF God (as expressly state in Col. 1:15 and Rev. 3:14), whom God SENT to deliver His Message/Word to mankind (John 17:3).

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to MY Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] MY God, and your God.

 

[A Freeman]

A few of the many words or phrases that those who believe in a schizophrenic 3=1 triune god dishonestly attempt to redefine to try in vain to make that pagan religious superstition work:-

Appointed/Appointed One
Anointed/Anointed One
Born
Brethren
Creature
Father
Firstborn/Firstbegotten
Equal to
Given
God
Godhead
Grace
Greater than
Heir
Image
Inheritance
Invisible
Made
Man
Mediator
Nothing
Of
Omnipotent
Omnipresent
Omniscient
One
Son
Son of God
Son of Man
The Head of
The MOST High
Three
Two
Visible

 

[Wrangler]

Check out the number of ways this verse is translated in other Bibles…..mostly to accommodate the trinity.

I noticed tortured translations to accommodate the trinity doctrine also, most notably forcing "Houtos" in John 1:2, which means "that" to be rendered "he." (Yet, it is correctly rendered in John 6:60 as "that.")

Houtos Means Only "This" (John 6:60 & 1:2)

This is a rare exploration by me into foreign Languages. houtos is the Greek word in both verses. It means "this" in English. οὗτος - Wiktionary Determiner οὗτος • (hoûtos), f αὕτη (haútē), n τοῦτο (toûto) (medial demonstrative determiner and pronoun) this (of place) here in contrast with ὅδε...

www.christianityboard.com

• "That" is a preposition not a pronoun, like "he" is.
• You would not render, "I got that book we talked about" to be translated, "I got he book we talked about."
• If one is motivated to claim the book is a person, a male person, one has to really butcher the sentence. "I got him. We talked about him (in our last conversation).

I wonder if there is a book that collects all the various ways this doctrine has tortured various verses in translation? It might explain other awkwardly worded sentences. Since we're on the subject, it makes more sense to state in context of John's preamble that Jesus is the beginning on God's re-creation. And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's re-creation. This is because Jesus is resurrected from death to life, the first fruits to experience this transformation from the old to the new. (I know you debate if it was into a new body but) Scripture is clear in his resurrected state, he was not readily recognized by his closest friends. This implies Jesus was NOT in the State from the beginning of time but new, "re-created" anew.

The Complete Jewish Bible sidesteps the whole notion of the faithful and true witness “To the angel of the Messianic Community in Laodicea, write: ‘Here is the message from the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the Ruler of God’s creation. This is a creative, if not dishonest translation, inventing from whole cloth how the sentence ends. No one is disputing Jesus was given all authority. However, the resurrection of all things, beginning with Jesus is a re-creation from death.

To take this preamble to re-write Genesis in support of trinitarian doctrine does not fit the context. One vid I watched from Brother Kel talked about how any story begins - from the beginning. This does not mean that every story begins at the beginning of Creation. For instance, the Lord of the Rings begins with the fellowship of the ring. To torture this beginning to mean the beginning of time is absurd. What is John writing about? The ministry of Jesus of Nazareth, which climaxes with his resurrection. To force this beginning to refer to the beginning of time, a re-write of Genesis is IDOLATRY at its finest, forcing trinitarian "support." How else to explain the clash with Revelation 3:14?

 

[Wrangler]

Who said I was defending the trinity?

Do you reject the trinity?

Do I reject the 3 members of the Godhead, Father Son and Spirit... no.

<sigh>. Evidently, you are defending the trinity since you don't reject it. What a contrived way to make a point. This begs the question, why do you express yourself in such a contrived manner? The obvious answer is you want to be seen as neutral or moderate on a question of absolutes, which is disingenuous. To wit:

Do I reject the manner in which those 3 are often defined or described...yes.

Appeal to Diversion. This thread is NOT about the "manner" of statistical presentation, aka "often."

It's so cool how often we are told God is one but here, you easily identify those 3. Last I checked, 3 is not 1. LOL So, you don't defend the trinity, just how those 3 are discussed.

 

[Johann]

References to Christ Being an Angel…

Jesus' Divine Nature

Hebrews 1:3-6: Jesus is described as the "brightness of [God's] glory" and the "express image of His person," who upholds all things by His word of power. God explicitly declares, "Let all the angels of God worship Him."

Angels, including Michael, are commanded to worship Jesus, highlighting His superiority and divine nature.

John 1:1-3: Jesus is identified as the Logos (Word), who was with God and was God, through whom all things were made.

This eternal, creative role surpasses any angelic function.

Jesus' Sonship and Kingship

Hebrews 1:8: God addresses the Son, saying, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever."

This affirmation of Jesus as God places Him above created beings, including Michael.

Revelation 19:16: Jesus is called the "King of kings and Lord of lords," a title that implies supreme authority, not shared with any angelic being.

Jesus' Role as Mediator and Savior

1 Timothy 2:5: Jesus is uniquely described as the "one mediator between God and men." This mediatorial role involves the reconciliation of humanity to God, a task not assigned to angels.

Hebrews 2:14-17: Jesus partook of flesh and blood to destroy the power of death and make atonement for sins, a mission beyond the scope of any angelic being, including Michael.

Jesus' Authority over Angels

Colossians 1:16: All things, including thrones, dominions, principalities, and powers, were created through and for Jesus. Angels, as part of creation, are subject to Him.

Jude 1:9: Michael is portrayed as disputing with the devil over Moses' body, but he does not rebuke Satan directly, instead saying, "The Lord rebuke you." In contrast, Jesus exercises direct authority over demons and Satan (e.g., Matthew 4:10, Mark 5:8).

Jesus' Unique Titles and Attributes

Isaiah 9:6: The Messiah is called "Mighty God" and "Everlasting Father," titles that affirm His deity, not shared with Michael or any other angel.

Revelation 22:13: Jesus declares, "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End," identifying Himself as eternal and uncreated.

Worship Reserved for Jesus

Matthew 28:9, 17: Jesus receives worship from His disciples after His resurrection, something no angel, including Michael, is permitted to accept (cf. Revelation 22:8-9).

Jehovah's Witness question: Who do you think the archangel Michael is, according to Daniel 10:13, 21, Daniel 12:1, Jude 9, and 1 Thessalonians 4:16? Did you know that Jesus is the archangel Michael?

My answer: The archangel Michael is simply who the Bible says he is. He is the archangel Michael. Not a single verse of scripture says the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.

"To which of the angels did God ever say, 'Sit at my right hand'?" -- Hebrews 1:13. Jesus could not, therefore, be the archangel Michael because scripture says say that Jesus will sit at the right hand of God the Father.

"It was not to angels that he has subjected the world to come" -- Hebrews 2:5.

You asked me where the Bible says that angels will not judge the world. Here it is in Hebrews 2. Because the Archangel Michael is an angel, he could not be the Ruler of the world, could he? Since Scripture says Jesus is to be the Judge and ruler, he cannot be the Archangel.

I like the way Ken Taylor puts Hebrews 1:14 in his paraphrased Living Bible: "The angels are only spirit-messengers sent out to help and care for those who are to receive his salvation."

Angels do accomplish specific tasks for Yahweh, but they will not "judge" the world. That should be clear from reading chapters one and two of Hebrews.

Now, as to who Jesus Christ is, the Bible clearly identifies Jesus as God:

"The Word was God" -- John 1:1. This passage clearly echoes of Genesis 1:1. It points to the eternal existence of "The Word" (Jesus). Only God is eternally pre-existent. I like the way the New English Bible translates John 1:1: "What God was, the Word was."

"Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God." -- John 20:28. Unless we perform weird mental gymnastics with the syntax of this statement, we have to recognize that Thomas was saying that Jesus was God. Thomas is not addressing two different persons. When Thomas spoke to Jesus, he called Him both Lord and God.

"From them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all" -- Romans 9:5. Doesn't the apostle Paul clearly identify Christ as God in this passage?

"In Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" -- Colossians 2:9.

If all the fullness of the Deity is in Christ, then He is Deity, isn't He?

Here's how Bible scholar William Barclay translates Colossians 2:9: "It is in Christ that godhead in all its completeness dwells in bodily form."

"But about the Son he says, 'Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever" -- Hebrews 1:8.

Isn't the Son being clearly addressed as "God" in this verse?

You cannot come to any other conclusion if you correctly analyze the grammar of this sentence. Earlier, in verse 7, the writer talks about what angels are and then uses the linking word "but." Doesn't that conjunction "but" signal that the writer is no longer talking about angels (even archangels)?

"They will call him Immanuel -- which means 'God with us'" -- Matthew 1:23. The title says "God with us."

It doesn't say Jesus is "Archangel Michael with us," or "Someone who is like God with us," or "Someone who is almost God with us." It cannot be stated any more clearly than "God with us."

"They will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive" -- Titus 2:10. Over and over, the Bible calls Jesus "Savior." Those passages include Titus 1:4, 2 Peter 3:18, and 1 John 4:14. In Titus 1, Paul calls Jesus our Savior. In Titus 2, Paul refers to God as our Savior. We don't have two Saviors. We have one. That Savior is Jesus Christ, God Himself in human form.

Thanks.

J.

 

[ProDeo]

Colossians 1:16 For by Him (Father, the "I AM") were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in Earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him (Father, the "I AM"), and for him (Prince Michael/Christ):

Sorry friend, that's not a correct reading, context, context, context.....

Kol 1:14 in whom [Jesus] we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Kol 1:15 He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Kol 1:16 For by him [Jesus] all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him [Jesus] and for him [Jesus].

In all 3 verses Paul speaks about Jesus.

I know this is hard to swallow.

Paul, by this passage (and other passages) whether he realized or not made Christ (YHWH) together with the Father (Elohim) responsible (in charge) for the creation. It's not hard to understand, Jesus (YHWH in the human flesh, both God and man) clearly said - I and the Father are one.

Father (Elohim) gave Christ the Son (YHWH) the job to bring back the fallen creation to the Father. It's how the Father decided how to deal with sin.

 

[rockytopva]

This thread is now at 23,000 views and still very active. Scripture points to what we call the Trinity and Rapture as mysteries

1. Trinity... And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. - 1 Timothy 3:16
2. Rapture - Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed - 1 Corinthians 15:52

I would think that these topics will remain mysteries while we all are still alive and on planet earth. Even if we come up with an opinion we should be honest and admit that we are not really sure.

 

[Rita]

RitaJanice has requested this thread be locked - I am sure the discussions will continue on other threads xx