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Aunty Jane

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You certainly have repeated it many times, Aunty. Is there any chance we can stop all the haggling over John 1:1, and just all concede that the Greek is inconclusive, i.e., it might be translated either as “the Word was God” or “the Word was a god” with equal facility?
I could if there were not so many other verses of Scripture that shoot the trinity down in flames.....the very fact that it is not spoken about as something to be upheld in any verse of the Bible....not one direct mention of it by either the Father or the son....and the mostly mute Holy Spirit who hardly says anything to anyone.... speaks for itself....does it not?

In John 1:1 Yahweh is beside himself....does that make any sense to you? What about the Jews....? Would it make sense to them if their Messiah claimed to be God incarnate?.....which he never did. They tried to pin a charge of blasphemy on him for merely claiming to be God’s son.....imagine what an uproar there would have been if he’d said he was Yahweh?!
 

David in NJ

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Think before you post!

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people like you. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.


The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

Glad to clear some of the confusion...
God is not the author of confusion.

If you do not believe His Word then you are left to yourself.

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God.

Are you going to call God a liar?
 

David in NJ

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You certainly have repeated it many times, Aunty. Is there any chance we can stop all the haggling over John 1:1, and just all concede that the Greek is inconclusive, i.e., it might be translated either as “the Word was God” or “the Word was a god” with equal facility?
It is IMPOSSIBLE for it to be translated: "the Word was a god"

But do you know why?
 

Aunty Jane

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Too many questions. Ask me one or two at a time, please. You seem un-merry; I’ll try to help you if I can.
Its easy....just break the quotes up so that you can answer one at a time....it works for me...

“Un-merry”....now there’s new word....Are you having a “merry” time by celebrating a pagan festival originally held in hnor of a false god?......I think you need to try to help yourself first....OK? (2 Cor 6:14-18)
 

MonoBiblical

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I could if there were not so many other verses of Scripture that shoot the trinity down in flames.....the very fact that it is not spoken about as something to be upheld in any verse of the Bible....not one direct mention of it by either the Father or the son....and the mostly mute Holy Spirit who hardly says anything to anyone.... speaks for itself....does it not?

In John 1:1 Yahweh is beside himself....does that make any sense to you? What about the Jews....? Would it make sense to them if their Messiah claimed to be God incarnate?.....which he never did. They tried to pin a charge of blasphemy on him for merely claiming to be God’s son.....imagine what an uproar there would have been if he’d said he was Yahweh?!
Are you a JW or ex-JW?
 
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Verily

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Think before you post!

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people like you. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God."
^That right there^

Them adressing Abraham that way saying

Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us

Always made me think of these two pictures

1Sam 2:8 He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.

Since similarly it shows much the same here

Luke 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

Likewise it says,

James 2:5 Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Where we could see how the poor/the beggar was set among who they called a prince, and to make them inherit the throne of glory, as heirs of the Kingdom
 

David in NJ

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Because the word God is definitive in that part of the verse being an anarthrous noun.
Excellent

Pay attention @Pierac and @Aunty Jane and @A Freeman

This is the MOST IMPORTANT FACT
The Apostle John, being a Jew, knew the Commandments of God , especially the FIRST Commandment

I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

The Apostle John KNEW what he was writing and it is all throughout the Gospel.


While many of you fight against the LORD and are busy calling Him a liar, we who believe His Word are basking in His LIGHT
 
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David in NJ

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Do you mean.... My Master and King in the coming kingdom... anointed by his God? I believe!!!

You do know the word.. Christ in you bible is the Greek word for Messiah.... Both mean a human anointed by God!

Rev 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him

Who gave him? Take a deep breath...

Peter at the beginning of the Church at Pentecost in Acts.... Tells you...

Net bible Act 2:15 In spite of what you think, these men are not drunk, for it is only nine o'clock in the morning.

NASB bible Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know--

Joh 5:36 "But the testimony which I have is greater than the testimony of John; for the works which the Father has given Me to accomplish--the very works that I do--testify about Me, that the Father has sent Me.

Mat 24:36 "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Luk 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him!"

Joh 14:28
"You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you.' If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Do you believe all that he has spoken?
GREAT

You can see the scriptures that speak of the only begotten Son of God who came to earth in the body of a man.

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
In the volume of the book it is written of
Me
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
 

MonoBiblical

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Excellent

Pay attention @Pierac and @Aunty Jane and @A Freeman

This is the MOST IMPORTANT FACT
The Apostle John, being a Jew, knew the Commandments of God , especially the FIRST Commandment

I am the Lord your God who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
‘You shall have no other gods before Me.

The Apostle John KNEW what he was writing and it is all throughout the Gospel.


While many of you fight against the LORD and are busy calling Him a liar, we who believe His Word are basking in His LIGHT
But scripture says there are other gods who are not unique. You shall not have gods others before or ahead of the Most High. I take it to mean that.
 
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Aunty Jane

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Is the relevance of conjunctions and tense lost on most reading John 1:1?

From the KJV:

John 1:1-2
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

In context, "with" in the above passage indicates two distinct parties (God and the Word).
The word "was" is PAST TENSE. How could anything about our changeless God (Mal. 3:6) cease to exist?
Since “the beginning” is a past tense reference, so is the expression “the Word WAS with God, (ho theos...Yahweh) meaning that he has been with his God and Father since “the beginning”....but the beginning of what? God had no beginning.

If Jesus is God’s “firstborn” then that term suggests that other sons would follow.....did they? The “sons of God” are the angels....and the Bible says there are hundreds of thousands of them.
And then it says the Word WAS “theos”....not “ho theos”.....he is a ‘divine mighty one’ who was always at the Father’s side......since the beginning of his existence.
If it is said "he was alive", it necessarily means that the referenced individual are no longer alive. How then can someone attempt to argue that God is with Himself, and/or that the Word allegedly is God, when it clearly states that "the Word" WAS (past tense) God (and thus is speaking of an event that has passed, in this case "the beginning").
Trinitarians seem to have a problem with tense, particularly with regard to Jesus’ relationship to God from the distant past, all through Bible history, and down to the present day.

The Jews question to Jesus in connection with Abraham becomes a nonsense when they asked him his age, to answer “I Am” is present a tense answer to a past tense question.
He was telling them that he existed before Abraham......not that he was God.
John 8:58 has no connection whatsoever to Exodus 3:13-15.
 
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David in NJ

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Since “the beginning” is a past tense reference, so is the expression “the Word WAS with God, (ho theos...Yahweh) meaning that he has been with his God and Father since “the beginning”....but the beginning of what? God had no beginning.

If Jesus is God’s “firstborn” then that term suggests that other sons would follow.....did they? The “sons of God” are the angels....and the Bible says there are hundreds of thousands of them.
And then it says the Word WAS “theos”....not “ho theos”.....he is a ‘divine mighty one’ who was always at the Father’s side......since the beginning of his existence.

Trinitarians seem to have a problem with tense, particularly with regard to Jesus’ relationship to God from the distant past, all through Bible history, and down to the present day.

The Jews question to Jesus in connection with Abraham becomes a nonsense when they asked him his age, to answer “I Am” is present a tense answer to a past tense question.
He was telling them that he existed before Abraham......not that he was God.
John 8:58 has no connection whatsoever to Exodus 3:13-15.
Since “the beginning” is a past tense reference, so is the expression “the Word WAS with God, (ho theos...Yahweh) meaning that he has been with his God and Father since “the beginning”....but the beginning of what?
Genesis chapter is the 'Beginning of Creation'

God had no beginning.
Elohim/plural had no beginning
FATHER = no beginning
WORD = no beginning
HOLY SPIRIT = no beginning

"Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Us - no beginning
Our - no beginning
Our - no beginning


If Jesus is God’s “firstborn” then that term suggests that other sons would follow.....did they?
YES - Many "sons" have followed in the past 2,000 Years = John 1:10-13

He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become sons of God, to those who believe in His name:
who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 

Stumpmaster

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How many times does God need to tell people that Christ was CREATED before they get it?
My point, which you missed, was that Christ is NOT the Archangel Michael.

As for the diatribe about Christ being made, His superior rank to the angels is the subject, not otherwise.

The eternality of Christ is a foundational doctrine in Christianity that asserts Jesus Christ has always existed and will always exist. This concept is supported by several key points and scriptures in the New Testament:

1. Pre-existence of Christ

  • John 1:1-2 (NIV): "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." These verses highlight that Christ, referred to as the Word (Logos), existed with God from the very beginning.
  • John 8:58 (NIV): Jesus declares, "Very truly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I am!" This statement links Jesus to the divine name "I AM," used by God in Exodus 3:14, indicating His eternal existence.

2. Divine Nature

  • Colossians 1:16-17 (NIV): "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." This passage affirms Christ's role in creation and His pre-existence before all things.
  • Hebrews 1:3 (NIV): "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." This verse emphasizes Christ's divine nature and His sustaining power over creation.

3. Christ’s Eternal Reign

  • Revelation 1:8 (NIV): "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Christ is described as eternal, existing from eternity past to eternity future.
  • Hebrews 13:8 (NIV): "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." This emphasizes the unchanging, eternal nature of Christ.

4. Relationship with the Father

  • John 17:5 (NIV): Jesus prays, "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." This prayer reflects Christ's pre-existent glory and eternal relationship with the Father.

5. Fulfillment of Prophecy

  • Micah 5:2 (NIV): "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." This prophecy points to the eternal origins of the Messiah.
The doctrine of the eternality of Christ underscores His divine nature, His role in creation, and His unchanging presence throughout all time. It affirms that Jesus is not a created being but has always existed as part of the Holy Trinity. [Copilot Composed]
 

ProDeo

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Christ, the CREATED Son OF God, the Firstborn of every creature.

Colossians 1:12-15
1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, Which hath made us meet to be sharers of the inheritance of the holy people in Light:
1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the Kingdom of His dear Son:
1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:
1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature:
If that is your interpretation than please don't stop at verse 15 -

Kol 1:12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.
Kol 1:13 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son,
Kol 1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Kol 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
Kol 1:16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Then you must also believe Christ = YHWH.
 
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TheHC

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You should ask the Lord yourself, IF you know Him. (And that's a really big "if" where JW's and RC's are concerned. Though increasingly among Protestants too sadly, in this time of falling away.)

The natural man cannot perceive the things of God for they are spiritually discerned.
Why do you imply the Holy Spirit doesn’t help me?
Christendom, in excess of 30,000 denominations, most claim to have God’s Holy Spirit, yet the majority of it’s trinitarian leaders see nothing wrong in supporting war, joining in killing their spiritual brothers — trinitarian brothers — and disobeying Christ’s law of love.(John 13:34,35; John 15:12,17,19; Matthew 5:44) They have been “part of the world” in this way, Catholics killing Catholics, Protestants killing Protestants.

Has Christendom — most of which is trinitarian — been obedient to Christ when it really mattered? What reputation in this regard has it established?

So why would these ones have God’s Spirit?


Jesus said “true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth” (John 4:23); Jehovah’s Witnesses heed Jesus’ counsel- and His commands… we do not join the world in its wars, killing anyone… and as a group, we enjoy God’s Spirit & blessing.

Do you think anyone who is outright disobedient to God, would get a blessing or anything from Him?

Surely you can see Christendom’s error here.
 
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TheHC

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Hello.
If the Word were merely "a divine being," it introduces polytheism, which is inconsistent with both Johannine monotheism (John 17:3) and the broader biblical witness.
Who says this?

Does Paul introduce polytheism @ 1 Corinthians 8:5,6? No.
There is only “one God” to worship.

I’ll be glad to address your other concerns later.
Goodnight.

(You may have to remind me, sometimes I forget.)
 
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A Freeman

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Have you never read the Commandment - You shall not lie

When you say: "Christ, the CREATED Son OF God" you are lying and all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire

Not one of the scriptures you posted speaks of God creating His Word.

Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”

REPENT from committing willful SIN and believe every word of God = Hebrews 10:5
You're not fooling anyone.

You're the one lying by pretending God didn't make Prince Michael/Christ after being provided with dozens of direct references to God making/creating Christ. Please stop lying and falsely accusing others of doing what YOU are hypocritically doing, both for your sake and for everyone else's.

God Bless.
 

A Freeman

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My point, which you missed, was that Christ is NOT the Archangel Michael.

As for the diatribe about Christ being made, His superior rank to the angels is the subject, not otherwise.

The eternality of Christ is a foundational doctrine in Christianity that asserts Jesus Christ has always existed and will always exist. This concept is supported by several key points and scriptures in the New Testament:

1. Pre-existence of Christ

  • John 1:1-2 (NIV): "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning." These verses highlight that Christ, referred to as the Word (Logos), existed with God from the very beginning.
  • John 8:58 (NIV): Jesus declares, "Very truly I tell you, before Abraham was born, I am!" This statement links Jesus to the divine name "I AM," used by God in Exodus 3:14, indicating His eternal existence.

2. Divine Nature

  • Colossians 1:16-17 (NIV): "For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together." This passage affirms Christ's role in creation and His pre-existence before all things.
  • Hebrews 1:3 (NIV): "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." This verse emphasizes Christ's divine nature and His sustaining power over creation.

3. Christ’s Eternal Reign

  • Revelation 1:8 (NIV): "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." Christ is described as eternal, existing from eternity past to eternity future.
  • Hebrews 13:8 (NIV): "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." This emphasizes the unchanging, eternal nature of Christ.

4. Relationship with the Father

  • John 17:5 (NIV): Jesus prays, "And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began." This prayer reflects Christ's pre-existent glory and eternal relationship with the Father.

5. Fulfillment of Prophecy

  • Micah 5:2 (NIV): "But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times." This prophecy points to the eternal origins of the Messiah.
The doctrine of the eternality of Christ underscores His divine nature, His role in creation, and His unchanging presence throughout all time. It affirms that Jesus is not a created being but has always existed as part of the Holy Trinity. [Copilot Composed]
References to Christ Being an Angel…


CHRIST'S Revelation to his Apostle John


Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Christ Jesus, which God gave unto him, to show unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified [it] by His angel unto His servant John:

Revelation 10:1-3
10:1 And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a "Cloud": and a rainbow [was] upon his head, and his face [was] as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire:
10:2 And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the "sea", and [his] left [foot] on the "earth",
10:3 And cried with a loud voice, as [when] a lion roareth (2 Esd. 12:31, Rev. 5:5): and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices.

Revelation 18:1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was Lightened with his glory (Matt. 24:27; Luke 17:24).


And also exactly which (Arch)angel Christ is (known in heaven as PRINCE Michael).

Daniel 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand (Matt. 21:44).

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the Commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, the first of the chief princes [of God], came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Daniel 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the Scripture of Truth: and [there is] NONE that holdeth with me in these things, EXCEPT Michael your prince (Eno. 67:1; Rev. 5:3; 5; 9 & 12:7).

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael [the Archangel] (Eno. 20:5; 36:1; 40:8; 58:1; 59:9; 57:1-2; 70:4; Rev. 12:7; Sura 2:98) stand up, the Great Prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the Book [of Life] (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:15; 21:27; Sura 83:20).

Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of Life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

The firstborn son of the king is heir to the Kingdom (2 Chronicles 21:1-3), just as Christ—the Firstborn Son of God—is Heir to the Kingdom of God

born (definition)

(bôrn)

v.

A past participle of bear

adj.

1.

a. Brought into life by birth.

b. Brought into existence; CREATED: A new nation was born with the revolution.

Source: born
 
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