THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[amigo de christo]

In the Old Testament Yahweh was the only redeemer and or savior that the Jews had. Not referring to Yeshua.

Then again four or five times He sells the Israelites into the hands of their enemies.

that SPIRITUAL ROCK which was CHRIST . you sure about that my friend . JESUS HAS BEEN
even before the world was and all that created even was . HE was with THEM IN THE WILDERNESS
Though the Word had not yet come manifested in the flesh .
And the sheep Looked for him
and the gospel was even preached to abraham and abraham saw HIS DAY and HE REJOICED .
He had not YET BEEN MANIFESTED . but IN SPIRIT he was amongst them .
THE SPIRIT OF GOD moved upon them . and the SPRIIT OF GOD is THE SAME as THE SPIRIT OF CHRIST .
He later came into the world
He had created all things . he came unto HIS OWN but many of HIS own did not recieve HIM .
HE who was before abraham was . But unto all who do recieve HIM to them gave he the power to become sons of GOD .
We have many crown takers amongst christendom today my friend . they sell the sheep a fable .
but the sheep HEED NOT that fable .
The fabler has come to sing its tune and its tune to sing unto the decieved it will play .
And all not in the lambs book of life will sing and they will dance to the tune of its pipe as they are led
all to The harlots den and shall merge under her shade .
As for HIS PEOPLE the call and the cry remains , COME YE OUT FROM AMONGST HER
lest ye partake of her sins and recieve of her plagues . GOD GONNA JUDGE THE HO and all within her will wail .
heed not her cry of interfaith for it is truly enterdeath and all who sip of her cup of abominitial fornication
will weep on the day of the LORD most bitterly and lament and wail .
A ho knows how to deck herself up and a ho knows how to attract the wayward of men
RIGHT INTO HER BED OF ADULTERY . beware her for she has many daughters who do her work .

 

[Grailhunter]

For this cause came i into the world to testify of the Truth .
Everyone who is of the Truth hears MY voice .
If a man or a woman believes NOT that JESUS is the CHRIST
then that man or that woman hears not and knows not THE TRUTH .
He who hears us is of GOD , wrote john
but he who hears not us is NOT of GOD , wrote john . NOW JOHN i know was of CHRIST , of GOD .
And he wrote HE who believes NOT the testimony that GOD gave of the SON
calls GOD , A LIAR .
Take heed they call GOD a liar . How can the TRUTH be in one if that one calleth GOD a liar .
And the answer is , IT AINT . We cannot let slip what we have learned and head into interfaith which is a lie .
IF what we have heard from the beginning shall REMAIN in us , THEN we shall continue , remain in THE SON and IN THE FATHER .
let no man take thy crown . Those who preach interfaith and the lie that our truth is no better than any other religoins
truth lead all to THE LIE , the lie of anti christ , which ye heard should come into the world and EVEN NOW my friend
has it been IN THE WORLD . It has come to merge the decieved to be as one . Not a lamb one gonna heed it my friend .
BUT THE DECIEVED within chrsitendom will as will all the false religoins who already believe a lie . THEY WILL MERGE amadues .
It was foretold a great falling away would occur
it was foretold a strong delusoin to believe a lie would come upon any and upon all who rejected the love of the truth .
What was foretold cometh to pass .
SO i leave us with these words , LET NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN for we have many decievers at work .

The "rock" that followed the Israelites in the wilderness, as referenced in 1 Corinthians 10:4, is identified by Paul as Christ:

"And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ." (Lexham English Bible)

This verse implies that Christ, in a pre-incarnate form, was present with the Israelites during their wilderness journey, symbolically represented by the rock that provided water.

Biblical Background
The Rock in the Old Testament:

In Exodus 17:6, God commands Moses to strike a rock at Horeb to provide water for the Israelites.
In Numbers 20:8-11, Moses again brings forth water from a rock, though his actions led to disobedience.
Throughout the Old Testament, God is metaphorically referred to as a "rock" (e.g., Deuteronomy 32:4, Psalm 18:2), symbolizing His steadfastness and provision.
Paul’s Interpretation:

Paul links these Old Testament events to Christ, identifying the sustaining "rock" as a prefiguration of Jesus. This interpretation aligns with the idea of Christ's eternal presence and involvement in God’s covenantal history.
Scholarly Interpretations
Typological Understanding:

Many scholars view Paul’s identification of the rock as Christ through a typological lens. Typology sees events, persons, or institutions in the Old Testament as prefiguring or foreshadowing New Testament realities.
The water-giving rock in the wilderness symbolizes Christ, who provides "living water" (cf. John 4:10, John 7:37-38). Scholars like F.F. Bruce and N.T. Wright emphasize this typology, showing the unity of God’s redemptive plan across Scripture.
Jewish Rabbinic Tradition:

Paul may also be engaging with a Jewish tradition that described a miraculous, movable rock that provided water for the Israelites during their journey. Rabbinic sources, such as Tosefta Sukkah 3.11, mention such a rock, which is sometimes called "Miriam's Well."
Paul Christianizes this tradition, identifying Christ as the true "rock" that accompanied and sustained the Israelites.
Pre-incarnate Christ:

For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them (epinon ek pneumatikēs akolouthousēs petras). Change to the imperfect epinon shows their continual access to the supernatural source of supply. The Israelites were blessed by the water from the rock that Moses smote at Rephidim (Exo_17:6) and at Kadesh (Num_20:11) and by the well of Beer (Num_21:16). The rabbis had a legend that the water actually followed the Israelites for forty years, in one form a fragment of rock fifteen feet high that followed the people and gushed out water.

Baur and some other scholars think that Paul adopts this “Rabbinical legend that the water-bearing Rephidim rock journeyed onwards with the Israelites” (Findlay). That is hard to believe, though it is quite possible that Paul alludes to this fancy and gives it a spiritual turn as a type of Christ in allegorical fashion. Paul knew the views of the rabbis and made use of allegory on occasion (Gal_4:24).

And the rock was Christ (hē petra de ēn ho Christos). He definitely states here in symbolic form the preexistence of Christ. But surely “we must not disgrace Paul by making him say that the pre-incarnate Christ followed the march of Israel in the shape of a lump of rock” (Hofmann). He does mean that Christ was the source of the water which saved the Israelites from perishing (Robertson and Plummer) as he is the source of supply for us today.

Some theological traditions emphasize this verse as evidence of Christ’s pre-incarnate activity in the Old Testament. Scholars like Michael Heiser argue that Paul's assertion reflects an understanding of Jesus as active in Israel's history, consistent with the broader theme of God’s theophanies.
Suggested Scholarly Readings
N.T. Wright, Paul and the Faithfulness of God

Explores Paul's theological reinterpretation of Israel's history in light of Christ, including 1 Corinthians 10.
F.F. Bruce, The New Testament Development of Old Testament Themes

Discusses the typological connections between Christ and Old Testament events.
Michael Heiser, The Unseen Realm

Examines the role of the pre-incarnate Christ and other divine manifestations in the Old Testament.
Craig Keener, 1-2 Corinthians: New Cambridge Bible Commentary

Provides detailed commentary on Paul’s interpretation of the rock and its theological implications.
Paul’s identification of the rock as Christ shows the continuity between the Old and New Testaments, highlighting Christ’s active presence in God’s plan of salvation even before His incarnation.

There's no way out of this-receive it and believe it.

J.

I will say it a hundred times that the New Testament indicates that Yeshua was pre-existent and in the Old Testament. But that makes Yahweh a liar….So there has to be more to the story.

The New Testament seems to ignore what Yahweh said about Him being the only God and no other. For example the New Testament does not say, My Father said He was the only God in the Old Testament but He was wrong, I was there.

 

[Grailhunter]

The "rock" that followed the Israelites in the wilderness, as referenced in 1 Corinthians 10:4, is identified by Paul as Christ:

"And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ." (Lexham English Bible)

This verse implies that Christ, in a pre-incarnate form, was present with the Israelites during their wilderness journey, symbolically represented by the rock that provided water.



Explores Paul's theological reinterpretation of Israel's history in light of Christ, including 1 Corinthians 10.
F.F. Bruce, The New Testament Development of Old Testament Themes

Discusses the typological connections between Christ and Old Testament events.
Michael Heiser, The Unseen Realm

Examines the role of the pre-incarnate Christ and other divine manifestations in the Old Testament.
Craig Keener, 1-2 Corinthians: New Cambridge Bible Commentary

Provides detailed commentary on Paul’s interpretation of the rock and its theological implications.
Paul’s identification of the rock as Christ shows the continuity between the Old and New Testaments, highlighting Christ’s active presence in God’s plan of salvation even before His incarnation.

There's no way out of this-receive it and believe it.

J.

I will say it a hundred times that the New Testament indicates that Yeshua was pre-existent and in the Old Testament. But that makes Yahweh a liar….So there has to be more to the story.

The New Testament seems to ignore what Yahweh said about Him being the only God and no other. For example the New Testament does not say, My Father said He was the only God in the Old Testament but He was wrong, I was there.

The "rock" that followed the Israelites in the wilderness, as referenced in 1 Corinthians 10:4, is identified by Paul as Christ:

"And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ." (Lexham English Bible)

This verse implies that Christ, in a pre-incarnate form, was present with the Israelites during their wilderness journey, symbolically represented by the rock that provided water.

Biblical Background
The Rock in the Old Testament:

In Exodus 17:6, God commands Moses to strike a rock at Horeb to provide water for the Israelites.
In Numbers 20:8-11, Moses again brings forth water from a rock, though his actions led to disobedience.
Throughout the Old Testament, God is metaphorically referred to as a "rock" (e.g., Deuteronomy 32:4, Psalm 18:2), symbolizing His steadfastness and provision.
Paul’s Interpretation:

Paul links these Old Testament events to Christ, identifying the sustaining "rock" as a prefiguration of Jesus. This interpretation aligns with the idea of Christ's eternal presence and involvement in God’s covenantal history.
Scholarly Interpretations
Typological Understanding:

Many scholars view Paul’s identification of the rock as Christ through a typological lens. Typology sees events, persons, or institutions in the Old Testament as prefiguring or foreshadowing New Testament realities.
The water-giving rock in the wilderness symbolizes Christ, who provides "living water" (cf. John 4:10, John 7:37-38). Scholars like F.F. Bruce and N.T. Wright emphasize this typology, showing the unity of God’s redemptive plan across Scripture.
Jewish Rabbinic Tradition:

Paul may also be engaging with a Jewish tradition that described a miraculous, movable rock that provided water for the Israelites during their journey. Rabbinic sources, such as Tosefta Sukkah 3.11, mention such a rock, which is sometimes called "Miriam's Well."
Paul Christianizes this tradition, identifying Christ as the true "rock" that accompanied and sustained the Israelites.
Pre-incarnate Christ:

For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them (epinon ek pneumatikēs akolouthousēs petras). Change to the imperfect epinon shows their continual access to the supernatural source of supply. The Israelites were blessed by the water from the rock that Moses smote at Rephidim (Exo_17:6) and at Kadesh (Num_20:11) and by the well of Beer (Num_21:16). The rabbis had a legend that the water actually followed the Israelites for forty years, in one form a fragment of rock fifteen feet high that followed the people and gushed out water.

Baur and some other scholars think that Paul adopts this “Rabbinical legend that the water-bearing Rephidim rock journeyed onwards with the Israelites” (Findlay). That is hard to believe, though it is quite possible that Paul alludes to this fancy and gives it a spiritual turn as a type of Christ in allegorical fashion. Paul knew the views of the rabbis and made use of allegory on occasion (Gal_4:24).

And the rock was Christ (hē petra de ēn ho Christos). He definitely states here in symbolic form the preexistence of Christ. But surely “we must not disgrace Paul by making him say that the pre-incarnate Christ followed the march of Israel in the shape of a lump of rock” (Hofmann). He does mean that Christ was the source of the water which saved the Israelites from perishing (Robertson and Plummer) as he is the source of supply for us today.

Some theological traditions emphasize this verse as evidence of Christ’s pre-incarnate activity in the Old Testament. Scholars like Michael Heiser argue that Paul's assertion reflects an understanding of Jesus as active in Israel's history, consistent with the broader theme of God’s theophanies.
Suggested Scholarly Readings
N.T. Wright, Paul and the Faithfulness of God

Explores Paul's theological reinterpretation of Israel's history in light of Christ, including 1 Corinthians 10.
F.F. Bruce, The New Testament Development of Old Testament Themes

Discusses the typological connections between Christ and Old Testament events.
Michael Heiser, The Unseen Realm

Examines the role of the pre-incarnate Christ and other divine manifestations in the Old Testament.
Craig Keener, 1-2 Corinthians: New Cambridge Bible Commentary

Provides detailed commentary on Paul’s interpretation of the rock and its theological implications.
Paul’s identification of the rock as Christ shows the continuity between the Old and New Testaments, highlighting Christ’s active presence in God’s plan of salvation even before His incarnation.

There's no way out of this-receive it and believe it.

J.

I will say it a hundred times that the New Testament indicates that Yeshua was pre-existent and in the Old Testament. But that makes Yahweh a liar….So there has to be more to the story.

The New Testament seems to ignore what Yahweh said about Him being the only God and no other. For example the New Testament does not say, My Father said He was the only God in the Old Testament but He was wrong, I was there.

 

[Johann]

They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

Something that escaped your mind? Since Christ is "nowhere" to be found in the Old Testament?

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

I will say it a hundred times that the New Testament indicates that Yeshua was pre-existent and in the Old Testament. But that makes Yahweh a liar….So there has to be more to the story.

The New Testament seems to ignore what Yahweh said about Him being the only God and no other. For example the New Testament does not say, My Father said He was the only God in the Old Testament but He was wrong, I was there.

in no way does that make YAHWEH a liar .
Not all things had been revealed or made manifest .
Did you know that many even try and say JESUS HISMELF
did not preach the gospel . HE DID . he even preached of HIS DEATH and RESSURECTION .
its just those things were hidden from them TILL AFTER HE had risen .
Paul is not lying when he says what he wrote about CHRIST in the old test .
NOR WAS YAHWEH in the OLD TEST . its men LYING TO US friend . THEY saying and implying this or that .
DO NOT HEED THEM . its they who lie . NOT GOD , NOR PAUL , NOT CHRIST , nor the apotels .
THE NEW testament nor the OLD testament . ITS MEN WHO LIE and twist things .

 

[Johann]

I will say it a hundred times that the New Testament indicates that Yeshua was pre-existent and in the Old Testament. But that makes Yahweh a liar….So there has to be more to the story.

The New Testament seems to ignore what Yahweh said about Him being the only God and no other. For example the New Testament does not say, My Father said He was the only God in the Old Testament but He was wrong, I was there.

I will say it a hundred times that the New Testament indicates that Yeshua was pre-existent and in the Old Testament. But that makes Yahweh a liar….So there has to be more to the story.

The New Testament seems to ignore what Yahweh said about Him being the only God and no other. For example the New Testament does not say, My Father said He was the only God in the Old Testament but He was wrong, I was there.

Repeating yourself 3x is not going to help , is it?

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

Something that escaped your mind? Since Christ is "nowhere" to be found in the Old Testament?

J.

many cannot see this my friend . The only ONE who can open up and give the understanding
IS the SPIRIT . Many things were hidden in PLAIN SIGHT throughout all times .
Not all had yet been made manifest . Grail hunter is getting things confused , BUT I BET
he learned what he learned FROM MEN and those men DO NOT HAVE THE EYES TO SEE .
because by grace i can point out a TON of scrips that POINT RIGHT TO CHRIST in the old testament .
Grail hunter is confused , because men have confused him and i am worried he has loved to have it so .
BUT that dont mean i say its too late .
CHRIST can be found IN MANY PLACES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT . MANY MANY places indeed .

 

[Grailhunter]

Repeating yourself 3x is not going to help , is it?

J.

LOL Sorry watching Football

 

[Johann]

many cannot see this my friend . The only ONE who can open up and give the understanding
IS the SPIRIT . Many things were hidden in PLAIN SIGHT throughout all times .
Not all had yet been made manifest . Grail hunter is getting things confused , BUT I BET
he learned what he learned FROM MEN and those men DO NOT HAVE THE EYES TO SEE .
because by grace i can point out a TON of scrips that POINT RIGHT TO CHRIST in the old testament .
Grail hunter is confused , because men have confused him and i am worried he has loved to have it so .
BUT that dont mean i say its too late .
CHRIST can be found IN MANY PLACES IN THE OLD TESTAMENT . MANY MANY places indeed .

At least he is not aggressive, so I will take the time to engage with him. It's reminiscent of the disciples on the road to Emmaus, where Jesus patiently walked with them and opened the Scriptures to reveal Himself in the Old Testament:

“And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself” (Luke 24:27, LEB).

Just as Christ illuminated the truth to the disciples, showing how the Scriptures pointed to Him, we too can take the opportunity to guide others with patience and understanding.

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

Something that escaped your mind? Since Christ is "nowhere" to be found in the Old Testament?

J.

Listen to the beauty of this my friend .
Come ye near unto Me , hear ye this
I have not spoken in secrete from the beginning
from the time that it was
there am I
and now the LORD GOD and HIS SPIRIT
has sent me .
ISNT that just beautiful . Who said that and from whence did this come .
The LORD GOD and HIS SPIRIT has sent ME ,
THUS SAYETH the LORD thy redeemer
the HOLY ONE of Israel
I am the LORD thy GOD which teaches thee to profit
which leads thee by THE WAY that thou should GO .
and years later , I AM THE WAY was manifested unto men .
isnt that just lovely my friend .

 

[Johann]

LOL Sorry watching Football

It’s truly disheartening to see sports taking precedence over the Scriptures and the eternal significance of our salvation.

J.

 

[Grailhunter]

It’s truly disheartening to see sports taking precedence over the Scriptures and the eternal significance of our salvation.

J.

LOL News flash I am usually multi-tasking.

 

[Johann]

Listen to the beauty of this my friend .
Come ye near unto Me , hear ye this
I have not spoken in secrete from the beginning
from the time that it was
there am I
and now the LORD GOD and HIS SPIRIT
has sent me .
ISNT that just beautiful . Who said that and from whence did this come .
The LORD GOD and HIS SPIRIT has sent ME ,
THUS SAYETH the LORD thy redeemer
the HOLY ONE of Israel
I am the LORD thy GOD which teaches thee to profit
which leads thee by THE WAY that thou should GO .
and years later , I AM THE WAY was manifested unto men .
isnt that just lovely my friend .

Preponderantly wonderful and beautiful.

J.

 

[Johann]

LOL News flash I am usually multi-tasking.

It reminds me of Martha and Mary-one caught up in multitasking, while the other sat at the feet of our Lord Jesus Christ, receiving His teaching.

The cares and snares of this world-but I'm not mad at you.

Shalom to you and family.

J.

 

[amigo de christo]

It’s truly disheartening to see sports taking precedence over the Scriptures and the eternal significance of our salvation.

J.

Even jacob saw , even jacob later surnamed israel saw .
Let us behold the dream of jacob and let us see what this represents and who .
and he dreamed and behold a LADDER was set up ON the earth
and the top of it reached to HEAVEN
and behold the angels of GOD ascending and descending upon IT . upon the ladder .
NOW GO to and behold the very words of JESUS HIMSELF to nathianal
YE beleive because i told you i saw you under the tree
behold you shall see greater things than these .
And HE said unto him
Verily verily i say unto you that hereafter you shall see
The heaven OPEN
and the angels of GOD ascending and descending upon the SON OF MAN .
BINGO my friend .
jacob saw a ladder upon whom the angels of GOD did ascend and descend
and that ladder CONNECTED heaven to earth , or man to GOD .
IT WOULD BE MANIFESTED .

 

[Grailhunter]

It reminds me of Martha and Mary-one caught up in multitasking, while the other sat at the feet of our Lord Jesus Christ, receiving His teaching.

The cares and snares of this world-but I'm not mad at you.

Shalom to you and family.

J.

Kool

 

[amigo de christo]

Preponderantly wonderful and beautiful.

J.

But who shall i say sent me . TELL that I AM has sent thee . moses heard the voice , heard the name
Many years later
BEFORE abraham was I AM
and that I AM said
I HAVE MADE MANISFEST YOUR NAME .
if ya have SEEN ME you have seen the FATHER .
I have given them YOUR NAME , i have made manifest YOUR NAME . KEEP them through YOUR NAME .

 

[amigo de christo]

At least he is not aggressive, so I will take the time to engage with him. It's reminiscent of the disciples on the road to Emmaus, where Jesus patiently walked with them and opened the Scriptures to reveal Himself in the Old Testament:

“And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself” (Luke 24:27, LEB).

Just as Christ illuminated the truth to the disciples, showing how the Scriptures pointed to Him, we too can take the opportunity to guide others with patience and understanding.

J.

yes grail hunter is not a mean man .

 

[Johann]

But who shall i say sent me . TELL that I AM has sent thee . moses heard the voice , heard the name
Many years later
BEFORE abraham was I AM
and that I AM said
I HAVE MADE MANISFEST YOUR NAME .
if ya have SEEN ME you have seen the FATHER .
I have given them YOUR NAME , i have made manifest YOUR NAME . KEEP them through YOUR NAME .

The Unbelief of the People
Joh 12:36 While you have the light believe in the light, that you may become sons of light." On saying this Jesus went away and hid Himself.
Joh 12:37 Although He had performed so many wonder-works right before their eyes, they did not believe in Him,
Joh 12:38 so that the utterance of the prophet Isaiah was fulfilled: "Lord, who has believed what they heard from us? And to whom has the mighty arm of the Lord been shown?"
Joh 12:39 So they could not believe, for Isaiah again has said:
Joh 12:40 "He has blinded their eyes and benumbed their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes and understand with their hearts, and turn to me to cure them."
Joh 12:41 Isaiah said this, because he saw His glory; yes, he spoke about Him.
Joh 12:42 And yet in spite of all this, even among the leading men many came to believe in Him, but because of the Pharisees they did not own it, for fear of being turned out of the synagogue,
Joh 12:43 for they loved the praise of men instead of the praise of God.
Jesus Came to Save the World
Joh 12:44 But Jesus cried aloud, "Whoever believes in me believes not merely in me but in Him who has sent me;
Joh 12:45 and whoever sees me sees Him who has sent me.
Joh 12:46 I have come as light into the world, so that no one who continues to believe in me can remain in darkness.
Joh 12:47 If anyone hears my words and fails to keep them, it is not I that judge him, for I have not come to judge but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 Whoever persistently rejects me and refuses to accept my teachings has something to judge him -- the very message I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
Joh 12:49 This is because I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who has sent me has given me orders Himself what to say and what to tell.
Joh 12:50 And I know that His orders mean eternal life. So whatever I speak I am speaking as the Father has told me."

Johann.

 

[amigo de christo]

Preponderantly wonderful and beautiful.

J.

Abraham saw my day , he saw it and was glad .
JEHOVAH JIREH , in the mount of the LORD it shall be seen , provided .
and lets examine what GOD told abraham . ye have not withheld your only son .......................
Years later GOD would send HIS OWN to be the LAMB of GOD . abraham seen JESUS day my friend .
AND unto abraham was the gospel preached . and in THY SEED ........................that there SEED WAS AND IS JESUS THE CHRIST
the very promise given unto the fathers themselves , and the prophets foretold of him
even david foretold . The LORD said unto MY LORD sit at my right hand ..........
DAVID saw it my friend . many prophets were shown and they prophesied .