THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[Ritajanice]

"The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly" Prov. 20:27

No idea what that means?

Short commentary.

Man's spirit possesses thought, motives, intentions, feelings, and desires, all of which the Lord tests. God is aware of every aspect of our inner lives (1 Samuel 16:7; Hebrews 4:13). A person's spirit illuminates who and what they really are (Luke 6:45).


I know 100% that God searches our hearts ,he knows our hearts @amadeus ..more than we do.

Our spirit has been reborn , so our heart is now in Christ..Born Again of incorruptible seed..that seed is a Living seed who indwells our spirit..he is Gods Living testimony.,we don’t need all this dire need to believe, not if our spirit is Born Again.

I mean even the demons believed...to believe is much more than human belief...my spirit had to be reborn before I could even know about Jesus, we believe in Jesus because we have His Living testimony indwelling our spirit..

The Holy Spirit gave birth to my spirit,.he testifies to my spirit every day that I am Gods child..I don’t know about you, but I don’t get all this dire need to believe in Jesus, especially as we have His Living testimony indwelling our heart / spirit.

 

[amigo de christo]

We have been taught the same way - on our knees before the LORD with the Holy Scriptures Open
praying to JESUS to grant His Holy Spirit and understanding = believing every word

Believing every word . I am sure you wont mind me lenghtning that a bit.
BELIEVING EVERY WORD OF GOD . as far as men , NO SIR they get tested by THEM WORDS
and if or when they omit , twist and contradict , YOU CAN BET ONE THING david , ONE THING ,
THIS LAMB WONT HEED A WORD THEY GOTTA SAY . FOR if any cometh and bringeth words
and them words contradict the words of TRUTH , THEYS THE LIAR , NOT GOD . THEY THE LIAR , NOT GOD .
LET GOD be true but every man a liar so that ye may be JUSTIFIED IN YOUR SAYINGS and might overcome
when thou art judged . EVERY WORD OF GOD is TRUTH . and there is no word of GOD that is NOT TRUTH .
This lamb BELIEVES THAT .
for this reason came i forth and to this end came I INTO THE WORLD
to TESTIFY OF TRUTH . everyone who is of the TRUTH , hears MY VOICE . AND HIS VOICE WONT NEVER CONTRADICT
that which is written . Folks got problems with TRUTH in that bible . BUT THIS LAMB says , JUST LOVE AND EMBRACE ever lovely
WORD for it is truth and was written for OUR LEARNING . BIBLE . oh i know
i will hear pharisee , you worship a book , you etc etc etc . BUT SHOW ME
WHY IT IS EVIL TO LOVE THE TRUTH GOD HIMSELF INSPIRED . Exactly . its EVIL TO TWIST AND OMIT IT .

 

[amigo de christo]

BINGO

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Its one thing to see the wicked in the world trying to twist , omit and attack the truth .
BUT MAN it brings a deep anger within to see the so called church trying to do it IN HIS NAME .
But you go and you read what angered GOD the most . was it not when his own people
USED HIS NAME to do evil and to accept and worship other gods . INTERFAITH IS OF SATAN and i will by grace
continue to expose it . poor ol wrangler gonna be dead broke long before i am done .
But i do pray he will get on board and have naught to do with interfaith .

 

[amadeus]

No idea what that means?

Perhaps it is the tiny glimmer of Light by which God allows each person the opportunity to walk in the greater Light, as a son of God, which is the Way to salvation.

"O Lord. I know that the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem 10:23

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9

But did every man receive Him and become a son of God..?

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12

 

[Ritajanice]

Perhaps it is the tiny glimmer of Light by which God allows each person the opportunity to walk in the greater Light, as a son of God, which is the Way to salvation.

"O Lord. I know that the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem 10:23

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9

But did every man receive Him and become a son of God..?

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12

11) John 1:12-13​

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

7) Titus 3:4-5​

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8) 1 Peter 1:3​

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

9) 1 John 2:29​

If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who practices righteousness is born of Him.

10) 1 John 4:7-11​

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 In this the love of God was manifested toward us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.

11) John 1:12-13​

But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[amadeus]

I never posted this before because of the forum rules, but here is a deeper take on the subject.

It seems that your post has been buried in the flurry of posts added to the thread since then. Hopefully at least a few more will view your podcast and seriously and prayerfully consider what it contains.

 

[Grailhunter]

Three GODS . there be only ONE GOD . Folks just dont seem to be able to grasp
GOD IS HIS SPIRIT , HE IS HIS WORD . That it is HIS OWN ESSENCE .
I can see clearly NOW , why JESUS could say the FATHER IS GREATER THAN I
and YET STILL BE GOD . The WORD does what is spoken by the FATHER .
WHEN GOD said let there be light . THERE WAS LIGHT , it was HIS WORD creating the light
HIS WORD BE JESUS THE CHRIST . though that WORD did not become flesh till many years later .
THE WORD had too . HOW ELSE was man gonna be saved . But
WHEN GOD says LET There be light , it was light created , NOTHING else
THEN he says lET there be . You see JESUS is that essence coming forth , HE IS THAT WORD .
probably dont make a lick of sense to you .
But no worries , we dont have to understand , it just strenghted my faith when finally the understanding came .
OH but i was saved day ONE . i know many do not understand .
I mean WHO REALLY grasps this IN FULL .
BUT what i do know is this . IF a man denies the diety of CHRIST
LOOK OUT . they have to twist scrips to actually DENY HIM .
We might not understand HOW the JESUS was GOD and yet HE said the FATHER is greater than i ,
BUT when it said GOD IS HIS WORD , I BELIEVED THAT . I BELEIVED what i read
and did not try and twist anything . Folks who deny the diety of CHRIST are in deadly danger friend .

I disagree and have explained it in detail at the beginning of this thread.

 

[David in NJ]

It seems that your post has been buried in the flurry of posts added to the thread since then. Hopefully at least a few more will view your podcast and seriously and prayerfully consider what it contains.

Have you seriously considered the Word of God as presented in Genesis, the Prophets, the Gospel and Apostles and Revelation

In the beginning
בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית (bə·rê·šîṯ)
Preposition-b | Noun - feminine singular
Strong's Hebrew 7225: 1) first, beginning, best, chief 1a) beginning 1b) first 1c) chief 1d) choice part

God
אֱלֹהִ֑ים (’ĕ·lō·hîm)
Noun - masculine plural
Strong's Hebrew 430: 1) (plural) 1a) rulers, judges 1b) divine ones 1c) angels 1d) gods 2) (plural intensive-singular meaning) 2a) god, goddess 2b) godlike one 2c) works or special possessions of God 2d) the (true) God 2e) God

TRUTH is for Children

 

[Grailhunter]

Brother,
Try and understand @Grailhunter's point on three Gods - this is correct according to Scripture where Elohim is Plural

The TRUTH that you and i know is that the THREE - FATHER/WORD/HOLY SPIRIT are Individuals and yet THEY are ONE

THREE Elohe(plural) that are ECHAD Elohim

Our human intellect cannot fully understand this.

Therefore the SUPREME Elohim communicated this TRUTH to us in Genesis with the Allegorical lives of THREE:
Abraham/Isaac/Jacob

And Elohim(Plural) said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’
”Moreover Elohim(Plural) said to Moses, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel: ‘The YHWH Elohim(Plural) of your fathers,
Elohe(Plural) Abraham
Elohe(Plural) Isaac,
Elohe(Plural) Jacob,
has sent me to you.
This is My name forever, and this is My memorial to all generations.’

Elohim is Plural and it is characteristic of the Hebrew language. But there is no scholar that thinks that Yahweh is plural. For one Yahweh makes it clear that He is the only God in the Old Testament and there is no other. There is a reason that that the Jewish religion is Monotheistic

Yeshua does not show up in the Old Testament. He has no activity and Yahweh and Yeshua do not talk to each other or refer to each other.

God the Father did not lie....
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

“You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you. Nehemiah 9:6

“You shall have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3

To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. Deuteronomy 4:39

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Deuteronomy 6:4

“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. Isaiah 37:20

I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. Isaiah 42:8 (Of course they removed His name.)

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:10

I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, Isaiah 45:5

Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Isaiah 45:21

Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9

That all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no other. 1st Kings 8:60

There is none like you, O Lord, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1st Chronicles 17:20

Therefore you are great, O Lord God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 2nd Samuel 7:22

And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. 2nd Kings 19:15

But I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior. Hosea 13:4
God the Father did no lie.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

“You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you. Nehemiah 9:6

“You shall have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3

To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. Deuteronomy 4:39

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Deuteronomy 6:4

“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. Isaiah 37:20

I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. Isaiah 42:8 (Of course they removed His name.)

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:10

I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, Isaiah 45:5

Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Isaiah 45:21

Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9

That all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no other. 1st Kings 8:60

There is none like you, O Lord, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1st Chronicles 17:20

Therefore you are great, O Lord God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 2nd Samuel 7:22

And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. 2nd Kings 19:15

But I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior. Hosea 13:4

For you are great and do wondrous things; you alone are God. Psalm 86:10

 

[David in NJ]

Elohim is Plural and it is characteristic of the Hebrew language. But there is no scholar that thinks that Yahweh is plural. For one Yahweh makes it clear that He is the only God in the Old Testament and there is no other. There is a reason that that the Jewish religion is Monotheistic

Yeshua does not show up in the Old Testament. He has no activity and Yahweh and Yeshua do not talk to each other or refer to each other.

God the Father did not lie....
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

“You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you. Nehemiah 9:6

“You shall have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3

To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. Deuteronomy 4:39

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Deuteronomy 6:4

“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. Isaiah 37:20

I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. Isaiah 42:8 (Of course they removed His name.)

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:10

I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, Isaiah 45:5

Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Isaiah 45:21

Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9

That all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no other. 1st Kings 8:60

There is none like you, O Lord, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1st Chronicles 17:20

Therefore you are great, O Lord God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 2nd Samuel 7:22

And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. 2nd Kings 19:15

But I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior. Hosea 13:4
God the Father did no lie.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

“You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you. Nehemiah 9:6

“You shall have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3

To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. Deuteronomy 4:39

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Deuteronomy 6:4

“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. Isaiah 37:20

I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. Isaiah 42:8 (Of course they removed His name.)

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:10

I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, Isaiah 45:5

Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Isaiah 45:21

Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9

That all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no other. 1st Kings 8:60

There is none like you, O Lord, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1st Chronicles 17:20

Therefore you are great, O Lord God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 2nd Samuel 7:22

And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. 2nd Kings 19:15

But I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior. Hosea 13:4

For you are great and do wondrous things; you alone are God. Psalm 86:10

Yeshua does not show up in the Old Testament. He has no activity and Yahweh and Yeshua do not talk to each other or refer to each other.

Yeshua is the Word that became flesh.

The Word is the Lord/Yahweh in the OT

 

[David in NJ]

It seems that your post has been buried in the flurry of posts added to the thread since then. Hopefully at least a few more will view your podcast and seriously and prayerfully consider what it contains.

Brother @amadeus

i know you know and love the Lord


Are you willing to know, beyond any doubt, the Truth of Elohim as declared beginning in Genesis???

 

[RedFan]

One issue is that I don't consider the Early Church Fathers as my ultimate authority, nor do I adhere to the man-made doctrine of theosis.


Explanation of Theosis:

Theosis, primarily discussed within certain Christian traditions, refers to the process by which believers are transformed into the likeness of God through God's grace. Rooted in 2 Peter 1:4, which speaks of becoming "partakers of the divine nature," theosis suggests that while humans remain distinct from God in essence, they can participate in His holiness and life.

However, theosis should not be understood as humans becoming divine in substance or nature, but rather being united with God in a way that reflects His character and attributes. This process is made possible through the work of Jesus Christ, as believers are sanctified and conformed to His image (Romans 8:29, 2 Corinthians 3:18).

Some view theosis as the ultimate goal of salvation, wherein the believer progressively becomes more Christlike through the Holy Spirit, participating in the divine life. But it is important to clarify that theosis does not imply a belief that humans can become gods, but that they are made holy and perfected through their relationship with God.
Some may consider theosis to be a manmade term, as it became more formally developed and codified in the theological writings of the Church Fathers and later in Orthodox Christian theology. It's viewed by some as a theological concept that goes beyond what is explicitly taught in Scripture, while others see it as a legitimate way to describe the biblical process of sanctification and union with God.

So, while theosis as a formal doctrine can be seen as a later theological development, the concept of being made more like Christ through God's grace is deeply rooted in biblical teaching.

--see the highlighted blue and goes BEYOND what stands written in Scripture and there are 7 atonement theories, last time I have checked--
Ransom Theory
Origin: Early Church (Origen, Gregory of Nyssa)
Description: This theory suggests that Christ’s death was a ransom paid to Satan (or the forces of evil) to free humanity from bondage. The idea is that humanity was enslaved to sin, and Christ’s sacrifice was a payment to release them.
Criticism: Some argue that it portrays Satan as having too much power or authority.

2. Christus Victor
Origin: Early Church (Athanasius, Irenaeus)
Description: This theory emphasizes Christ’s victory over the powers of sin, death, and Satan. It sees the cross as a triumph in which Jesus defeated these powers, leading to the liberation of humanity.
Criticism: Some argue that it neglects the need for a legal satisfaction of God’s justice.

3. Satisfaction Theory
Origin: Anselm of Canterbury (11th century)
Description: Anselm’s satisfaction theory states that Christ’s death was a necessary payment to satisfy God’s justice. Human sin had offended God's honor, and only a sinless being (Jesus) could restore it.
Criticism: Some argue it presents a view of God that is overly legalistic or punitive.

4. Penal Substitution
Origin: Developed in Protestant Reformation (particularly by John Calvin)
Description: This theory holds that Jesus took the punishment that humanity deserved for sin upon Himself, satisfying the wrath of God. It emphasizes Jesus taking the penalty for sin in place of sinners.
Criticism: Some believe it portrays God as wrathful and punitive, which may seem inconsistent with God's love.

5. Moral Influence Theory
Origin: Peter Abelard (12th century)
Description: This theory focuses on the idea that Christ’s death serves as a moral example of self-sacrifice and love, intended to inspire humanity to repentance and moral transformation. The death of Jesus shows God’s love, which motivates humanity to turn to God.
Criticism: It is often critiqued for downplaying the need for a legal or ontological change in the sinner's status before God.

6. Governmental Theory
Origin: Hugo Grotius (17th century)
Description: This theory holds that Christ’s death was a demonstration of God's justice in upholding moral order. The death of Jesus shows that sin incurs consequences and that God governs the moral universe through a system of divine law. Jesus' sacrifice satisfies the demands of God's law, without the necessity of a literal penalty being paid.
Criticism: Some argue that it does not adequately address the need for personal reconciliation between God and humanity.

7. Recapitulation Theory
Origin: Irenaeus (2nd century)
Description: This theory suggests that Christ, as the "second Adam," recapitulates (or "reverses") the fall of humanity by living the life that Adam failed to live. Jesus, by living a perfect life and dying as a sacrifice, redeems and restores humanity to its original purpose.
Criticism: It is often criticized for not fully addressing the legal or sacrificial aspects of atonement.

Conclusion
While these seven theories are among the most well-known, there are other variations and combinations of atonement theories that have been developed over time. Each theory emphasizes different aspects of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, seeking to explain how His work brings about salvation.

So which one do you hold?

J.

A modification of several of these. I think of Christ as our champion in a cosmic battle against the Forces of Evil, our representative (the way David was Israel’s representative when he fought Goliath) -- but unlike with David vs. Goliath, Christ’s victory consisted not in surviving the battle and slewing the enemy, but in dying in battle and robbing the enemy of its victory. Once Champion Christ died, we don’t have to; the Evil One has no choice but to accept Christ’s death as the final outcome, as the end game (just as the Philistines took Goliath’s death as the end game) – and retreat. Therein lies both the “substitution” and the “atonement.” Meanwhile, forgiveness doesn’t enter into it per se. Atonement isn’t forgiveness, but a declaration of vicarious victory in the cosmic battle.

 

[IronMaiden]

W21I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

Well, I think you know where I stand and that I strongly believe in the Trinity. In Isaiah 43:11, God is making it very clear that He is the Lord God Almighty and that there is no other Savior besides Him. See, for one who believes in the Trinity, the Savior is God (God the Son/Jesus). God is saying that there’s no other way to salvation other than by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.

 

[Johann]

The term "Immanuel" doesn't refer to the Son's location, i.e. Jesus lived among his people. The term "Immanuel" indicates, as it did in the original passage, God continues to work on behalf of the Jewish people.

Incorrect

This is not true. Jesus the man died on the cross. Sharing essence with the Father is NOT a requirement.

Not according to the Bible. And be careful. The idea that the Savior had to be ontologically "God" was a heresy known by both Paul and John. In fact, John claims that the Trinity heresy is the essential teaching of the antichrist.

This is not true. Jesus the man died on the cross. Sharing essence with the Father is NOT a requirement.

Incorrect-
Jesus’ Divinity is Essential for His Atoning Work While it is true that Jesus the man died on the cross, it is not the humanity of Jesus alone that accomplishes the salvation of mankind. His divinity is equally essential. Jesus is not merely a man who died, but the God-man—fully God and fully man. The death of a mere man would not have been sufficient to bear the weight of the world’s sins.

In Hebrews 9:14, it says, “How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.”

This verse emphasizes that the eternal Spirit (the divine nature of Christ) was essential for His sacrifice.

In 1 Peter 1:18-19, it says that we were redeemed “with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.” The emphasis is on the sinlessness and the divine nature of Christ, which would make His sacrifice acceptable and sufficient to atone for the sins of humanity.

Jesus’ Deity Is Affirmed by the Need for a Perfect Savior If Jesus were only human, He could not have been the perfect sacrifice for sin, because He Himself would have been in need of salvation. The sinless nature required for atonement could only be found in God Himself.

John 1:1-14 affirms the divinity of the Word, who became flesh—Jesus. In verse 14, “The Word became flesh and dwelt among us,” it’s crucial to understand that the Word (Logos), who was with God and was God, became flesh. This is the profound mystery that Jesus was both fully God and fully man.

Philippians 2:6-11 speaks of Christ’s preexistence, His equality with God, and His voluntary humility to become human. Christ’s deity is not a peripheral detail but the foundation of His sacrificial death.

Sharing Essence with the Father is Required for True Atonement The argument that “sharing essence with the Father is NOT a requirement” neglects the biblical necessity that only God could accomplish salvation. If Jesus were not divine, He could not have been the eternal and perfect mediator between God and humanity.

In 1 Timothy 2:5, it says, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

The mediator between God and man must be one who represents both parties. Jesus, being both fully God and fully man, is the only one who could effectively reconcile both parties.

Colossians 2:9 says, “For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily.” This means that Jesus' full divinity was present in His earthly life, and it was through His divine nature that His death had the power to bring about the redemption of humanity.

The Necessity of the Incarnation and Atonement The doctrine of the Incarnation-that the Son of God took on human flesh-is essential to Christianity. Without the full participation of Jesus as God and man, His death would not have been sufficient. Atonement required a sinless human and one whose death could bear infinite weight-something only the divine nature of Jesus could provide.

In Hebrews 10:4, it says, “For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.” The sacrificial system of the Old Testament was insufficient to remove sin. The only one who could fully deal with sin was someone who had the divine power to overcome sin and death-Jesus Christ.

You have adopted the Orthodox view, but not the Biblical View.

Incorrect.

Thanks.

J.

exactly . case in point . if indeed the SPIRIT OF GOD dwells in you . Now if anyone has not the SPIRIT of CHRIST ..........
its the same SPIRIT . ME and MY FATHER SHALL MAKE OUR ABODE UPON THAT MAN .

A modification of several of these. I think of Christ as our champion in a cosmic battle against the Forces of Evil, our representative (the way David was Israel’s representative when he fought Goliath) -- but unlike with David vs. Goliath, Christ’s victory consisted not in surviving the battle and slewing the enemy, but in dying in battle and robbing the enemy of its victory. Once Champion Christ died, we don’t have to; the Evil One has no choice but to accept Christ’s death as the final outcome, as the end game (just as the Philistines took Goliath’s death as the end game) – and retreat. Therein lies both the “substitution” and the “atonement.” Meanwhile, forgiveness doesn’t enter into it per se. Atonement isn’t forgiveness, but a declaration of vicarious victory in the cosmic battle.

But you don't hold to Penal Substitutionary Atonement-correct?

J.

 

[amadeus]

Have you seriously considered the Word of God as presented in Genesis, the Prophets, the Gospel and Apostles and Revelation

...

Yes.

TRUTH is for Children

" Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein" Mark 10:15

"Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world" Gal. 4:3

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." I Cor 13:11

 

[RedFan]

Thanks! What do these clauses mean?

contra proferentem

www.law.cornell.edu

course of performance

www.law.cornell.edu

 

[Grailhunter]

Well, I think you know where I stand and that I strongly believe in the Trinity. In Isaiah 43:11, God is making it very clear that He is the Lord God Almighty and that there is no other Savior besides Him. See, for one who believes in the Trinity, the Savior is God (God the Son/Jesus). God is saying that there’s no other way to salvation other than by Jesus Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross.

In the Old Testament Yahweh was the only redeemer and or savior that the Jews had. Not referring to Yeshua.

Then again four or five times He sells the Israelites into the hands of their enemies.

 

[amigo de christo]

Perhaps it is the tiny glimmer of Light by which God allows each person the opportunity to walk in the greater Light, as a son of God, which is the Way to salvation.

"O Lord. I know that the way of a man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps" Jerem 10:23

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:9

But did every man receive Him and become a son of God..?

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" John 1:12

For this cause came i into the world to testify of the Truth .
Everyone who is of the Truth hears MY voice .
If a man or a woman believes NOT that JESUS is the CHRIST
then that man or that woman hears not and knows not THE TRUTH .
He who hears us is of GOD , wrote john
but he who hears not us is NOT of GOD , wrote john . NOW JOHN i know was of CHRIST , of GOD .
And he wrote HE who believes NOT the testimony that GOD gave of the SON
calls GOD , A LIAR .
Take heed they call GOD a liar . How can the TRUTH be in one if that one calleth GOD a liar .
And the answer is , IT AINT . We cannot let slip what we have learned and head into interfaith which is a lie .
IF what we have heard from the beginning shall REMAIN in us , THEN we shall continue , remain in THE SON and IN THE FATHER .
let no man take thy crown . Those who preach interfaith and the lie that our truth is no better than any other religoins
truth lead all to THE LIE , the lie of anti christ , which ye heard should come into the world and EVEN NOW my friend
has it been IN THE WORLD . It has come to merge the decieved to be as one . Not a lamb one gonna heed it my friend .
BUT THE DECIEVED within chrsitendom will as will all the false religoins who already believe a lie . THEY WILL MERGE amadues .
It was foretold a great falling away would occur
it was foretold a strong delusoin to believe a lie would come upon any and upon all who rejected the love of the truth .
What was foretold cometh to pass .
SO i leave us with these words , LET NO MAN TAKE THY CROWN for we have many decievers at work .

 

[Johann]

In the Old Testament Yahweh was the only redeemer and or savior that the Jews had. Not referring to Yeshua.

Then again four or five times He sells the Israelites into the hands of their enemies.

The "rock" that followed the Israelites in the wilderness, as referenced in 1 Corinthians 10:4, is identified by Paul as Christ:

"And all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from the spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ." (Lexham English Bible)

This verse implies that Christ, in a pre-incarnate form, was present with the Israelites during their wilderness journey, symbolically represented by the rock that provided water.

Biblical Background
The Rock in the Old Testament:

In Exodus 17:6, God commands Moses to strike a rock at Horeb to provide water for the Israelites.
In Numbers 20:8-11, Moses again brings forth water from a rock, though his actions led to disobedience.
Throughout the Old Testament, God is metaphorically referred to as a "rock" (e.g., Deuteronomy 32:4, Psalm 18:2), symbolizing His steadfastness and provision.
Paul’s Interpretation:

Paul links these Old Testament events to Christ, identifying the sustaining "rock" as a prefiguration of Jesus. This interpretation aligns with the idea of Christ's eternal presence and involvement in God’s covenantal history.
Scholarly Interpretations
Typological Understanding:

Many scholars view Paul’s identification of the rock as Christ through a typological lens. Typology sees events, persons, or institutions in the Old Testament as prefiguring or foreshadowing New Testament realities.
The water-giving rock in the wilderness symbolizes Christ, who provides "living water" (cf. John 4:10, John 7:37-38). Scholars like F.F. Bruce and N.T. Wright emphasize this typology, showing the unity of God’s redemptive plan across Scripture.
Jewish Rabbinic Tradition:

Paul may also be engaging with a Jewish tradition that described a miraculous, movable rock that provided water for the Israelites during their journey. Rabbinic sources, such as Tosefta Sukkah 3.11, mention such a rock, which is sometimes called "Miriam's Well."
Paul Christianizes this tradition, identifying Christ as the true "rock" that accompanied and sustained the Israelites.
Pre-incarnate Christ:

For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them (epinon ek pneumatikēs akolouthousēs petras). Change to the imperfect epinon shows their continual access to the supernatural source of supply. The Israelites were blessed by the water from the rock that Moses smote at Rephidim (Exo_17:6) and at Kadesh (Num_20:11) and by the well of Beer (Num_21:16). The rabbis had a legend that the water actually followed the Israelites for forty years, in one form a fragment of rock fifteen feet high that followed the people and gushed out water.

Baur and some other scholars think that Paul adopts this “Rabbinical legend that the water-bearing Rephidim rock journeyed onwards with the Israelites” (Findlay). That is hard to believe, though it is quite possible that Paul alludes to this fancy and gives it a spiritual turn as a type of Christ in allegorical fashion. Paul knew the views of the rabbis and made use of allegory on occasion (Gal_4:24).

And the rock was Christ (hē petra de ēn ho Christos). He definitely states here in symbolic form the preexistence of Christ. But surely “we must not disgrace Paul by making him say that the pre-incarnate Christ followed the march of Israel in the shape of a lump of rock” (Hofmann). He does mean that Christ was the source of the water which saved the Israelites from perishing (Robertson and Plummer) as he is the source of supply for us today.

Some theological traditions emphasize this verse as evidence of Christ’s pre-incarnate activity in the Old Testament. Scholars like Michael Heiser argue that Paul's assertion reflects an understanding of Jesus as active in Israel's history, consistent with the broader theme of God’s theophanies.
Suggested Scholarly Readings
N.T. Wright, Paul and the Faithfulness of God

Explores Paul's theological reinterpretation of Israel's history in light of Christ, including 1 Corinthians 10.
F.F. Bruce, The New Testament Development of Old Testament Themes

Discusses the typological connections between Christ and Old Testament events.
Michael Heiser, The Unseen Realm

Examines the role of the pre-incarnate Christ and other divine manifestations in the Old Testament.
Craig Keener, 1-2 Corinthians: New Cambridge Bible Commentary

Provides detailed commentary on Paul’s interpretation of the rock and its theological implications.
Paul’s identification of the rock as Christ shows the continuity between the Old and New Testaments, highlighting Christ’s active presence in God’s plan of salvation even before His incarnation.

There's no way out of this-receive it and believe it.

J.

 

[Grailhunter]

1 Corinthians 10:4,

1st Corinthians
10 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. 2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. 3 They all ate the same spiritual food 4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ. 5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

6 Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did. 7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry.”[a] 8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did—and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died. 9 We should not test Christ,[b] as some of them did—and were killed by snakes. 10 And do not grumble, as some of them did—and were killed by the destroying angel.

?????