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ProDeo

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I never worship Jesus
The Holy Spirit does -

Joh 16:13 - When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 - He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 - All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
 

David in NJ

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As in this?

Deuteronomy 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Psalm 110:1 The LORD (God) said unto my Lord (Christ), Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
YES
 
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David in NJ

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The Holy Spirit does -

Joh 16:13 - When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Joh 16:14 - He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Joh 16:15 - All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Do you SEE the DANGER
 

David in NJ

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As in this?

Deuteronomy 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Psalm 110:1 The LORD (God) said unto my Lord (Christ), Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
Deuteronomy 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.

Based on Deuteronomy 13:4 we can deduce that Jesus is to be worshipped, at least from the Commandments = John 15:9-10

“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.
If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

@RedFan @Johann - Would this conclusion be held UP in Court???
 
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RedFan

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If Jesus were not God, He would not be capable of accomplishing the salvation that Scripture promises.
You've peeled back the bark now, my friend! This is indeed the key.

All Christians pay attention to the role played by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ in their salvation. Some favor the “ransom” theory (Matthew 20:28/Mark 10:45) that by sinning, mankind became Satan’s captives, and Christ’s death redeemed mankind from Satan’s dominion (resulting in what Romans 6:16 characterizes as a change of masters), while others favor the “restitutional” or “penal substitution” theory that Christ paid the penalty for mankind’s sin―a death penalty imposed by God since the Fall of Adam and Eve (Gen. 2:17)―and thereby satisfied the legitimate demands of God’s justice. While the payees under each theory are different, there is widespread agreement on the fact of payment on Calvary.

But few Christians dwell on the related question of the necessary qualifications for playing that salvific role. We might ask the question this way: what must be the victim’s nature in order to induce the payee – be it Satan or God – to accept the deal? Would a sinless man fill the bill here? Or must the victim have been something more – and if so, how much more?

The early church fathers wrestled with this. They ultimately concluded that the ransom price was high indeed. They ultimately concluded that the victim must be divine. It was less a conclusion about what Satan’s psyche must have been in order to draw an admonition like “Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.” It was more a conclusion about reversing the curse and repairing the rift between God and man.

And some of the patristic writers took it further. Athanasius’ fourth century work On the Incarnation famously states “God became man that man might become God.” He wasn’t blaspheming that we would all become equal to God. He was commenting on restoration of mankind’s union with God. Clement of Alexandria, in the first chapter of his Exhortation to the Heathen, writes I say, the Word of God became man, that you may learn from man how man may become God.” Origen, in the third chapter of his Contra Celsus, writes “from Him there began the union of the divine with the human nature, in order that the human, by communion with the divine, might rise to be divine.”

What helped me understand this was an exegesis of Paul’s use of pleroma – translated as “fullness” – twice in Colossians and twice in Ephesians. In Colossians, Paul attributes to Christ the fullness of God, Colossians 1:19 (“For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell”); Colossians 2:9 (“For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily”). And in Ephesians, he hints at that same fullness present in Christ being transferable to humanity, Ephesians 3:19 (“and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God”); Ephesians 4:13 (“until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”). For Paul, there was at least some sense in which mankind could, through Christ, attain to the divine.
 

Ritajanice

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The Holy Spirit in my spirit does not worship Jesus..he glorifies his Name through me...that is not worshipping Jesus..I worship one God and one God Only..,he is my Spirit Father..Jesus is not my Spirit Father, he is Gods Son..I too am Gods spirit daughter..

I am Born Of God His seed the Living Holy Spirit remains in me.

I must say, I’m loving this ignore button,I can post what I believe the Spirit places on my heart ,without any interruption ..Praise God for the ignore button..LOL.



  • Daniel_Kyrillos
    February 2018
    Worship and glorify are definitely too different things, especially when it comes to the saints. When we glorify the saints, we are almost saying "Wow! You guys are so cool! We wish we could be like you!!" However, we DO NOT worship them. To say we worship them means we believe they were strong by their own wills. In reality, God's power gave them the strength to persevere whether through torture or temptation in the wilderness. We only worship God, because we know He alone has true power. By glorifying the saints, we glorify and worship God and His power.
 
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David in NJ

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You've peeled back the bark now, my friend! This is indeed the key.

All Christians pay attention to the role played by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ in their salvation. Some favor the “ransom” theory (Matthew 20:28/Mark 10:45) that by sinning, mankind became Satan’s captives, and Christ’s death redeemed mankind from Satan’s dominion (resulting in what Romans 6:16 characterizes as a change of masters), while others favor the “restitutional” or “penal substitution” theory that Christ paid the penalty for mankind’s sin―a death penalty imposed by God since the Fall of Adam and Eve (Gen. 2:17)―and thereby satisfied the legitimate demands of God’s justice. While the payees under each theory are different, there is widespread agreement on the fact of payment on Calvary.

But few Christians dwell on the related question of the necessary qualifications for playing that salvific role. We might ask the question this way: what must be the victim’s nature in order to induce the payee – be it Satan or God – to accept the deal? Would a sinless man fill the bill here? Or must the victim have been something more – and if so, how much more?

The early church fathers wrestled with this. They ultimately concluded that the ransom price was high indeed. They ultimately concluded that the victim must be divine. It was less a conclusion about what Satan’s psyche must have been in order to draw an admonition like “Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.” It was more a conclusion about reversing the curse and repairing the rift between God and man.

And some of the patristic writers took it further. Athanasius’ fourth century work On the Incarnation famously states “God became man that man might become God.” He wasn’t blaspheming that we would all become equal to God. He was commenting on restoration of mankind’s union with God. Clement of Alexandria, in the first chapter of his Exhortation to the Heathen, writes I say, the Word of God became man, that you may learn from man how man may become God.” Origen, in the third chapter of his Contra Celsus, writes “from Him there began the union of the divine with the human nature, in order that the human, by communion with the divine, might rise to be divine.”

What helped me understand this was an exegesis of Paul’s use of pleroma – translated as “fullness” – twice in Colossians and twice in Ephesians. In Colossians, Paul attributes to Christ the fullness of God, Colossians 1:19 (“For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell”); Colossians 2:9 (“For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily”). And in Ephesians, he hints at that same fullness present in Christ being transferable to humanity, Ephesians 3:19 (“and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God”); Ephesians 4:13 (“until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”). For Paul, there was at least some sense in which mankind could, through Christ, attain to the divine.
Brother @Johann included here

@RedFan asks: Would a sinless man fill the bill here?

YES, Per the Irrevocable Contractual Agreement/LAW that God submitted Himself to in Genesis chapter 3

This however creates an IMPOSSIBLE Dilemma - Do you know what that is???
 
J

Johann

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Would a sinless man fill the bill here?

YES, Per the Irrevocable Contractual Agreement/LAW that God submitted Himself to in Genesis chapter 3

This however creates an IMPOSSIBLE Dilemma - Do you know what that is???
Yes, a sinless man would meet the requirements of God's law and justice as established in Genesis 3. The promise of a "seed" who would crush the serpent's head (Genesis 3:15) implies a human deliverer, but one unstained by sin to reverse the curse brought about by Adam.

The dilemma is this:
How can such a man exist, given that all humanity is born into sin through Adam (Romans 5:12-19)? Every descendant of Adam inherits a sinful nature, making it impossible for anyone to be sinless under their own power. This raises a critical question:

How can a sinless man be born without inheriting Adam's guilt and corruption, yet still be fully human to represent humanity?
This dilemma is resolved only in the incarnation of Jesus Christ. By being conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary (Luke 1:35), Jesus is fully human yet free from inherited sin. As the second Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), He fulfills the requirements of the law and offers Himself as the perfect sacrifice to redeem humanity.

J.
 

Ritajanice

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God accomplishes salvation not Jesus..he was part and parcel of it all.

We need both..without Jesus no salvation, without God’s forgiveness of sins, also no salvation..

Jesus never forgave my sins..God did, by the power of his Spirit..Praise God!..for sending Jesus...he was the atonement for our sins,.only God can forgive our sins.

Hebrews 13:11-15makes the connection between Leviticus and Jesus' sacrifice for our sin. Like the blood of the bull, Jesus' blood was spilled to stand between our sin and Holy God. Like the scapegoat, Jesus, as the perfect, sinless sacrifice, bore the sin of humankind on His shoulders.
 
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David in NJ

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Yes, a sinless man would meet the requirements of God's law and justice as established in Genesis 3. The promise of a "seed" who would crush the serpent's head (Genesis 3:15) implies a human deliverer, but one unstained by sin to reverse the curse brought about by Adam.

The dilemma is this:
How can such a man exist, given that all humanity is born into sin through Adam (Romans 5:12-19)? Every descendant of Adam inherits a sinful nature, making it impossible for anyone to be sinless under their own power. This raises a critical question:

How can a sinless man be born without inheriting Adam's guilt and corruption, yet still be fully human to represent humanity?
This dilemma is resolved only in the incarnation of Jesus Christ. By being conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary (Luke 1:35), Jesus is fully human yet free from inherited sin. As the second Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45), He fulfills the requirements of the law and offers Himself as the perfect sacrifice to redeem humanity.

J.
thus we have the Lord Jesus Christ confirming EXACTLY what you SEE = Matthew 19:23-26

Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?”

But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Based on the Irrevocable Contractual LAW by which God submitted Himself to in Genesis chapter 3,
and the dialogue of Jesus to His disciples in Matthew ch19 we can only conclude, factually, that JESUS is IMMANUEL
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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Conclusion: The Person of Jesus in Christian Doctrine
Jesus is not an "it" or a "plan", but the eternal Son of God,
Excellent arguments - Your posts are almost flawless. "Eternal Son", may technically wrong. Since Jesus was born and on that day, He became The Son.

You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”;

Hebrews 5:5

Let's examine the spiritual nature of Yahweh became human. He was begotten/born on a specific day and on that day, Yahweh, became a SON. Was the pre-incarnate person of the Triune God always a Son? IMHO, no, He was the Second person of the Trinity Yahweh. He is now referred to as the Son and forever will be. But in eternity past, I don't think so. The reason is because a Son comes from the Father, is created, and the pre-incarnate Jesus was not created.
Here we have Elohim- fully represented:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).



YHWH (Yahweh) is written 6800 times. Elohim, (a plural form), is used over 2500 times.
"I am He”, (ego eimi) is the phrase Jesus used by Jesus to identify Himself among the Jews. That phrase occurs 24 times in John’s Gospel. (John 8:24, 28, 58; 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8.)
In Isaiah 41:4, God or Yahweh says: “I, the Lord…I am He.” In Isaiah 43:10 he says “I am He!"
John’s ego eimi (“I am He"), can also be carried back to Exodus 3:14, where God identifies himself as the “I am.” Here we read: “God [Elohim] said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: “I AM has sent me to you."
Jesus therefore claimed I AM Yahweh in the flesh
.

Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me. (
John the Baptist)
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,

Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
Malachi. 3:1

From Romans 10:9-10, we understand that Christians will confess that “Jesus is Lord - (the same Adonai of the Old Testament).
Paul quotes from Joel 2:32 to make his point—”Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”. In the Old Testament passage, salvation comes to those who call on the name of Yahweh—

"I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear."
Isaiah 45:23
EVERY KNEE WILL BOW TO JESUS, THE SAME LORD.

The Lord of hosts, Him you shall hallow;
Let Him be your fear,
And let Him be your dread.
He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isaiah 8:13-14

In Romans 9:32-33, Paul quotes Isaiah 8:14 to show that Jesus is the “stumbling stone” over whom the unbelieving Jews had stumbled.

"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. John 17:5

"The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; for that reason also the holy Child will be called the Son of God."
Luke 1:35

Besides the Father ordaining Jesus' Sonship on His day of Birth, Gabriel also pronounced Jesus sonship - after that miraculous conception.

To us, He is the Son of God - now and forward into eternity. Before creation we all have additional questions as to what God was doing as well.
That is a mystery. It's higher than my pay grade to discern.
God ( Elohim) is dwelling in us - that's billions of Christians. The Holy Spirit dwells in us. We are "in Christ", and as the Father is in Him, so is the Father in us as well.
________

MacArthur explains it in several ways:

"Son is an incarnational title of Christ. Though His sonship was anticipated in the Old Testament (Prov. 30:4), He did not become a Son until He was begotten into time...The Bible nowhere speaks of the eternal Sonship of Christ...He was always God, but He became Son. Before that He was eternal God. It is therefore incorrect to say that Jesus Christ is eternally inferior to God because He goes under the title of Son. He is no "eternal son" always subservient to God, always less than God, always under God....His Sonship began in a point of time, not in eternity. His life as Son began in this world..."
"To say that Christ is “begotten” is itself a difficult concept. Within the realm of creation, the term “begotten” speaks of the origin of one’s offspring. The begetting of a son denotes his conception--the point at which he comes into being. Some thus assume that “only begotten” refers to the conception of the human Jesus in the womb of the virgin Mary. Yet Matthew 1:20 attributes the conception of the incarnate Christ to the Holy Spirit, not to God the Father. The begetting referred to in Psalm 2 and John 1:14 clearly seems to be something more than the conception of Christ’s humanity in Mary’s womb.

And indeed, there is another, more vital, significance to the idea of “begetting” than merely the origin of one’s offspring. In the design of God, each creature begets offspring “after his kind” (Gen. 1:11-12; 21-25). The offspring bear the exact likeness of the parent. The fact that a son is generated by the father guarantees that the son shares the same essence as the father.

I believe this is the sense Scripture aims to convey when it speaks of the begetting of Christ by the Father. Christ is not a created being (John 1:1-3). He had no beginning but is as timeless as God Himself. Therefore, the “begetting” mentioned in Psalm 2 and its cross-references has nothing to do with His origin.

But it has everything to do with the fact that He is of the same essence as the Father. Expressions like “eternal generation,” “only begotten Son,” and others pertaining to the filiation of Christ must all be understood in this sense: Scripture employs them to underscore the absolute oneness of essence between Father and Son. In other words, such expressions aren’t intended to evoke the idea of procreation; they are meant to convey the truth about the essential oneness shared by the Members of the Trinity."
John MacArthur
 

ProDeo

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Do you SEE the DANGER
This is a quote from an atheist philosopher -

What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires - desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.
-- Bertrand Russell, philosopher
 
J

Johann

Guest
Excellent arguments - Your posts are almost flawless. "Eternal Son", may technically wrong. Since Jesus was born and on that day, He became The Son.

You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”;

Hebrews 5:5

Let's examine the spiritual nature of Yahweh became human. He was begotten/born on a specific day and on that day, Yahweh, became a SON. Was the pre-incarnate person of the Triune God always a Son? IMHO, no, He was the Second person of the Trinity Yahweh. He is now referred to as the Son and forever will be. But in eternity past, I don't think so. The reason is because a Son comes from the Father, is created, and the pre-incarnate Jesus was not created.
Here we have Elohim- fully represented:
For unto us a child is born, unto us a Son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace” (Isaiah 9:6).



YHWH (Yahweh) is written 6800 times. Elohim, (a plural form), is used over 2500 times.
"I am He”, (ego eimi) is the phrase Jesus used by Jesus to identify Himself among the Jews. That phrase occurs 24 times in John’s Gospel. (John 8:24, 28, 58; 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8.)
In Isaiah 41:4, God or Yahweh says: “I, the Lord…I am He.” In Isaiah 43:10 he says “I am He!"
John’s ego eimi (“I am He"), can also be carried back to Exodus 3:14, where God identifies himself as the “I am.” Here we read: “God [Elohim] said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: “I AM has sent me to you."
Jesus therefore claimed I AM Yahweh in the flesh
.

Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me. (
John the Baptist)
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,

Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
Malachi. 3:1

From Romans 10:9-10, we understand that Christians will confess that “Jesus is Lord - (the same Adonai of the Old Testament).
Paul quotes from Joel 2:32 to make his point—”Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved”. In the Old Testament passage, salvation comes to those who call on the name of Yahweh—

"I have sworn by Myself;
The word has gone out from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear."
Isaiah 45:23
EVERY KNEE WILL BOW TO JESUS, THE SAME LORD.

The Lord of hosts, Him you shall hallow;
Let Him be your fear,
And let Him be your dread.

He will be as a sanctuary,
But a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense
To both the houses of Israel,
As a trap and a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isaiah 8:13-14

In Romans 9:32-33, Paul quotes Isaiah 8:14 to show that Jesus is the “stumbling stone” over whom the unbelieving Jews had stumbled.

"And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. John 17:5

"The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; for that reason also the holy Child will be called the Son of God."
Luke 1:35

Besides the Father ordaining Jesus' Sonship on His day of Birth, Gabriel also pronounced Jesus sonship - after that miraculous conception.

To us, He is the Son of God - now and forward into eternity. Before creation we all have additional questions as to what God was doing as well.
That is a mystery. It's higher than my pay grade to discern.
God ( Elohim) is dwelling in us - that's billions of Christians. The Holy Spirit dwells in us. We are "in Christ", and as the Father is in Him, so is the Father in us as well.
________

MacArthur explains it in several ways:

"Son is an incarnational title of Christ. Though His sonship was anticipated in the Old Testament (Prov. 30:4), He did not become a Son until He was begotten into time...The Bible nowhere speaks of the eternal Sonship of Christ...He was always God, but He became Son. Before that He was eternal God. It is therefore incorrect to say that Jesus Christ is eternally inferior to God because He goes under the title of Son. He is no "eternal son" always subservient to God, always less than God, always under God....His Sonship began in a point of time, not in eternity. His life as Son began in this world..."
"To say that Christ is “begotten” is itself a difficult concept. Within the realm of creation, the term “begotten” speaks of the origin of one’s offspring. The begetting of a son denotes his conception--the point at which he comes into being. Some thus assume that “only begotten” refers to the conception of the human Jesus in the womb of the virgin Mary. Yet Matthew 1:20 attributes the conception of the incarnate Christ to the Holy Spirit, not to God the Father. The begetting referred to in Psalm 2 and John 1:14 clearly seems to be something more than the conception of Christ’s humanity in Mary’s womb.

And indeed, there is another, more vital, significance to the idea of “begetting” than merely the origin of one’s offspring. In the design of God, each creature begets offspring “after his kind” (Gen. 1:11-12; 21-25). The offspring bear the exact likeness of the parent. The fact that a son is generated by the father guarantees that the son shares the same essence as the father.

I believe this is the sense Scripture aims to convey when it speaks of the begetting of Christ by the Father. Christ is not a created being (John 1:1-3). He had no beginning but is as timeless as God Himself. Therefore, the “begetting” mentioned in Psalm 2 and its cross-references has nothing to do with His origin.

But it has everything to do with the fact that He is of the same essence as the Father. Expressions like “eternal generation,” “only begotten Son,” and others pertaining to the filiation of Christ must all be understood in this sense: Scripture employs them to underscore the absolute oneness of essence between Father and Son. In other words, such expressions aren’t intended to evoke the idea of procreation; they are meant to convey the truth about the essential oneness shared by the Members of the Trinity."
John MacArthur
Guess we can disagree on eternal Son-ship-excellent post on your end @Ronald David Bruno.

Johann.
 
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amigo de christo

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I am assuming that you are referring to the One God Formula.
The pre-existing Christ and that Christ created all things.

I disagree.

I can give you a bunch of Old Testament scriptures where Yahweh makes it absolutely clear He is the only God and there is no other.

In the New Testament there are three Gods and there are scriptures that indicate Christ is either the Creator God or involved with it.
I have nothing against Christ being active in the Old Testament if there were scriptures that clearly stated that fact.

I notice people referencing Old Testament scriptures and say they are proof of Christ's pre-existance but It is more like dreamazoid and with that type of interpretation you could make the scriptures mean anything….who knows what the rest of their religion is like.

So Yahweh indicates that He created all things.
And Apostles say that Christ created all things.

Since the Old Testament scriptures give no clear indication that Yeshua was present or active in the Old Testament I go with Yahweh is the creator God and what is said in the New Testament leaves part of the story out or there is more to the story.

Like the verses that say you have to hate your mother and father to be a disciple of Christ….there has to be more to the story.
aint no formulas of men for me . i had not even heard many a word of todays church vocabulary .
I was like disepensation what and etc .
ME LEARNED BIBLE . not from a church one or a man one .
And how i have just loved to read it daily for now over eighteen years . I SUGGEST TO ALL and to all I DO SUGGEST
that we start fresh in that bible for ourselves . but you aint gonna do that are you , no matter
how often i have told people to put down denominational teachings of men
and just PICK back up the bible and READ IT FOR THEM , They never do . they stay clung to men
Now its true a few do this . AND BOY HOWDY what wonderful lovely true pure and holy fellowship that IS .
BIBLE , TIME . lets start saying this over and over again TILL IT FINALLY SINKS IN that MEN BEEN DUPED US BIG TIME
and now in that last hour MEN DUPING us to merge again as one under what they say is love and say is of GOD .
Many aint gonna make it grailhunter . BUT LET IT NOT BE SAID by ANY , OL AMIGO DIDNT TRY AND HELP
BIBLE , TIME . make the TIME . love the TIME , embrace them lovely words again . OH embrace them lovely words
and reminders again . cause many WONT BE Making it . Trusting in men has destroyed them .
 
J

Johann

Guest
You've peeled back the bark now, my friend! This is indeed the key.

All Christians pay attention to the role played by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ in their salvation. Some favor the “ransom” theory (Matthew 20:28/Mark 10:45) that by sinning, mankind became Satan’s captives, and Christ’s death redeemed mankind from Satan’s dominion (resulting in what Romans 6:16 characterizes as a change of masters), while others favor the “restitutional” or “penal substitution” theory that Christ paid the penalty for mankind’s sin―a death penalty imposed by God since the Fall of Adam and Eve (Gen. 2:17)―and thereby satisfied the legitimate demands of God’s justice. While the payees under each theory are different, there is widespread agreement on the fact of payment on Calvary.

But few Christians dwell on the related question of the necessary qualifications for playing that salvific role. We might ask the question this way: what must be the victim’s nature in order to induce the payee – be it Satan or God – to accept the deal? Would a sinless man fill the bill here? Or must the victim have been something more – and if so, how much more?

The early church fathers wrestled with this. They ultimately concluded that the ransom price was high indeed. They ultimately concluded that the victim must be divine. It was less a conclusion about what Satan’s psyche must have been in order to draw an admonition like “Thou shall not tempt the Lord thy God.” It was more a conclusion about reversing the curse and repairing the rift between God and man.

And some of the patristic writers took it further. Athanasius’ fourth century work On the Incarnation famously states “God became man that man might become God.” He wasn’t blaspheming that we would all become equal to God. He was commenting on restoration of mankind’s union with God. Clement of Alexandria, in the first chapter of his Exhortation to the Heathen, writes I say, the Word of God became man, that you may learn from man how man may become God.” Origen, in the third chapter of his Contra Celsus, writes “from Him there began the union of the divine with the human nature, in order that the human, by communion with the divine, might rise to be divine.”

What helped me understand this was an exegesis of Paul’s use of pleroma – translated as “fullness” – twice in Colossians and twice in Ephesians. In Colossians, Paul attributes to Christ the fullness of God, Colossians 1:19 (“For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell”); Colossians 2:9 (“For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily”). And in Ephesians, he hints at that same fullness present in Christ being transferable to humanity, Ephesians 3:19 (“and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God”); Ephesians 4:13 (“until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ”). For Paul, there was at least some sense in which mankind could, through Christ, attain to the divine.
One issue is that I don't consider the Early Church Fathers as my ultimate authority, nor do I adhere to the man-made doctrine of theosis.


Explanation of Theosis:

Theosis, primarily discussed within certain Christian traditions, refers to the process by which believers are transformed into the likeness of God through God's grace. Rooted in 2 Peter 1:4, which speaks of becoming "partakers of the divine nature," theosis suggests that while humans remain distinct from God in essence, they can participate in His holiness and life.

However, theosis should not be understood as humans becoming divine in substance or nature, but rather being united with God in a way that reflects His character and attributes. This process is made possible through the work of Jesus Christ, as believers are sanctified and conformed to His image (Romans 8:29, 2 Corinthians 3:18).

Some view theosis as the ultimate goal of salvation, wherein the believer progressively becomes more Christlike through the Holy Spirit, participating in the divine life. But it is important to clarify that theosis does not imply a belief that humans can become gods, but that they are made holy and perfected through their relationship with God.
Some may consider theosis to be a manmade term, as it became more formally developed and codified in the theological writings of the Church Fathers and later in Orthodox Christian theology. It's viewed by some as a theological concept that goes beyond what is explicitly taught in Scripture, while others see it as a legitimate way to describe the biblical process of sanctification and union with God.

So, while theosis as a formal doctrine can be seen as a later theological development, the concept of being made more like Christ through God's grace is deeply rooted in biblical teaching.

--see the highlighted blue and goes BEYOND what stands written in Scripture and there are 7 atonement theories, last time I have checked--
Ransom Theory
Origin: Early Church (Origen, Gregory of Nyssa)
Description: This theory suggests that Christ’s death was a ransom paid to Satan (or the forces of evil) to free humanity from bondage. The idea is that humanity was enslaved to sin, and Christ’s sacrifice was a payment to release them.
Criticism: Some argue that it portrays Satan as having too much power or authority.

2. Christus Victor
Origin: Early Church (Athanasius, Irenaeus)
Description: This theory emphasizes Christ’s victory over the powers of sin, death, and Satan. It sees the cross as a triumph in which Jesus defeated these powers, leading to the liberation of humanity.
Criticism: Some argue that it neglects the need for a legal satisfaction of God’s justice.

3. Satisfaction Theory
Origin: Anselm of Canterbury (11th century)
Description: Anselm’s satisfaction theory states that Christ’s death was a necessary payment to satisfy God’s justice. Human sin had offended God's honor, and only a sinless being (Jesus) could restore it.
Criticism: Some argue it presents a view of God that is overly legalistic or punitive.

4. Penal Substitution
Origin: Developed in Protestant Reformation (particularly by John Calvin)
Description: This theory holds that Jesus took the punishment that humanity deserved for sin upon Himself, satisfying the wrath of God. It emphasizes Jesus taking the penalty for sin in place of sinners.
Criticism: Some believe it portrays God as wrathful and punitive, which may seem inconsistent with God's love.

5. Moral Influence Theory
Origin: Peter Abelard (12th century)
Description: This theory focuses on the idea that Christ’s death serves as a moral example of self-sacrifice and love, intended to inspire humanity to repentance and moral transformation. The death of Jesus shows God’s love, which motivates humanity to turn to God.
Criticism: It is often critiqued for downplaying the need for a legal or ontological change in the sinner's status before God.

6. Governmental Theory
Origin: Hugo Grotius (17th century)
Description: This theory holds that Christ’s death was a demonstration of God's justice in upholding moral order. The death of Jesus shows that sin incurs consequences and that God governs the moral universe through a system of divine law. Jesus' sacrifice satisfies the demands of God's law, without the necessity of a literal penalty being paid.
Criticism: Some argue that it does not adequately address the need for personal reconciliation between God and humanity.

7. Recapitulation Theory
Origin: Irenaeus (2nd century)
Description: This theory suggests that Christ, as the "second Adam," recapitulates (or "reverses") the fall of humanity by living the life that Adam failed to live. Jesus, by living a perfect life and dying as a sacrifice, redeems and restores humanity to its original purpose.
Criticism: It is often criticized for not fully addressing the legal or sacrificial aspects of atonement.

Conclusion
While these seven theories are among the most well-known, there are other variations and combinations of atonement theories that have been developed over time. Each theory emphasizes different aspects of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection, seeking to explain how His work brings about salvation.

So which one do you hold?

J.
 
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