Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Taken]

Not biblical...

You don’t understand chosen and predestined to become Born Again.

You said on another thread that you’re a Saint..only the elect/ Born Again are Saints?

How did you choose to become a Saint?

Have to go out, back later to check on your reply.

Not a mystery to me… but apparently to you…

A human Becomes A SAINT WHEN THEY Have Chosen GOD “According TO Gods Order … Gods Way ….Gods Acceptable Standard”!


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ritajanice]

Not a mystery to me… but apparently to you…

A human Becomes A SAINT WHEN THEY Have Chosen GOD “According TO Gods Order … Gods Way ….Gods Acceptable Standard”!

Utter Nonsense.

A human doesn’t become a Saint, not until their allotted time..when God births them in the Spirit all according to his timing / purpose and plan..no one can choose to become a Saint.

By Gods will we become Born Again, no man can ever choose to become Born Of The Spirit

Ephesians 1​

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King James Version​

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1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

1 Peter 1:2-25​

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King James Version​

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2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto yo

Glory to God,
Taken

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[David in NJ]

We can express the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (three “persons” in one God) as a set of propositions in this way:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
7. The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

For simplicity’s sake we need consider only 1 through 4 (for 5 through 7 will stand or fall on the same logical analysis we apply to 1 through 4):

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.

The difficulty in defending the Trinity has always been that these four propositions are, as a group, logically inconsistent when analyzed from the standpoint of the three basic rules of logical equivalence: self-identity (everything is identical to itself, i.e., x = x); symmetry (if two things are equivalent, they are equivalent in any order, i.e., if x = y, then y = x); and transitivity (if one thing is the same as another and that other is the same as a third, then the first is the same as the third, i.e., if x = y and y = z then x = z). The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity fares ill in this analysis.

To make them logically consistent, it is tempting to sacrifice one of the four tenets – and most early heresies took this tack. Thus, Arius sacrificed the third one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
3′. Therefore the Son is not God.

and Sabellius sacrificed the fourth one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4′. Therefore the Father is the Son.

Both Arius’ argument and Sabellius’ argument are logically consistent because, unlike the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, they satisfy all three of the aforementioned principles of logical consistency. Arius and Sabellius, although approaching the inconsistency from different perspectives, each preferred rationality to irrationality―even if it meant preferring heresy to orthodoxy.

Now, we Trinitarians have two choices. We can simply throw up our hands and declare that God does not have to play by the rules of logical consistency, thereby forever assigning the Trinity to the status of unfathomable mystery. Or, we can allow for identity and equivalence to be relative to their contexts. Thus, “Robert is good” can be consistent with “Robert is not good” as long as a different sense of “good” holds for each proposition (e.g., he is a good theologian; he is not a good golfer.)

To say that “The Father is not the Son” is likewise context-dependent and predicate-specific. One can maintain without contradiction both that “The Father is not the same person as the Son” and “The Father is the same God as the Son” by separating out personhood from Godhood. How to tease them apart is the ultimate challenge of orthodox Trinitarian theology.

Who want to take a deep dive with me here?

Logic 101 = How can fallen human logic be the measure of understanding to that which is beyond our understanding?

Logic 102 - What is the Way that God permits/grants/gives understanding of Himself to us???

Logic 103 - What is Truth? Knowing the Answer is Key to logical questions

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We can express the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (three “persons” in one God) as a set of propositions in this way:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
7. The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

For simplicity’s sake we need consider only 1 through 4 (for 5 through 7 will stand or fall on the same logical analysis we apply to 1 through 4):

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.

The difficulty in defending the Trinity has always been that these four propositions are, as a group, logically inconsistent when analyzed from the standpoint of the three basic rules of logical equivalence: self-identity (everything is identical to itself, i.e., x = x); symmetry (if two things are equivalent, they are equivalent in any order, i.e., if x = y, then y = x); and transitivity (if one thing is the same as another and that other is the same as a third, then the first is the same as the third, i.e., if x = y and y = z then x = z). The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity fares ill in this analysis.

To make them logically consistent, it is tempting to sacrifice one of the four tenets – and most early heresies took this tack. Thus, Arius sacrificed the third one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
3′. Therefore the Son is not God.

and Sabellius sacrificed the fourth one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4′. Therefore the Father is the Son.

Both Arius’ argument and Sabellius’ argument are logically consistent because, unlike the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, they satisfy all three of the aforementioned principles of logical consistency. Arius and Sabellius, although approaching the inconsistency from different perspectives, each preferred rationality to irrationality―even if it meant preferring heresy to orthodoxy.

Now, we Trinitarians have two choices. We can simply throw up our hands and declare that God does not have to play by the rules of logical consistency, thereby forever assigning the Trinity to the status of unfathomable mystery. Or, we can allow for identity and equivalence to be relative to their contexts. Thus, “Robert is good” can be consistent with “Robert is not good” as long as a different sense of “good” holds for each proposition (e.g., he is a good theologian; he is not a good golfer.)

To say that “The Father is not the Son” is likewise context-dependent and predicate-specific. One can maintain without contradiction both that “The Father is not the same person as the Son” and “The Father is the same God as the Son” by separating out personhood from Godhood. How to tease them apart is the ultimate challenge of orthodox Trinitarian theology.

Who want to take a deep dive with me here?

1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

 

[Taken]

One wonders what Jesus would have to say that you would deem is NOT "pointing" to his deity. In other words, you have an IDOL, not a hypothesis that can be tested and proven false.

Jesus’ Deity is Revealed…
The Light,
The Maker,
The Truth,
The Word,
The Way,
The Life,
The Power,
The Savior,
He The I AM without beginning or ending.
He That Had No and Did No Sin.

Sin Against God IS unbelief IN God.

It is Gods Approved Teaching for humans TO Know, Trust, Believe, Confess from their Heartful (natural Truth)…
God IS and always Has Been His Word of Truth and His Spirit of Truth and His Supreme Power….regardless of what His Word, His Truth, His Supreme Power IS: Called at any time in history.

Remember…men like little Babies Are taught little by little, bit by bit….and WHEN God reveals something NOT known to earlier ancient men…it is for the Benefit of men of latter generations.

God bless you,


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus’ Deity is Revealed…

How come not one verse has the trinity* in it?



* verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

 

[Taken]

Utter Nonsense.

 

[Taken]

Logic 101 = How can fallen human logic be the measure of understanding to that which is beyond our understanding?

Logic 102 - What is the Way that God permits/grants/gives understanding of Himself to us???

Logic 103 - What is Truth? Knowing the Answer is Key to logical questions

She does Not know human reasoning …. What “according to HIS Order and Way means”…. Thus she says God chose her…done Deal.

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Ritajanice]

She does Not know human reasoning …. What “according to HIS Order and Way means”…. Thus she says God chose her…done Deal.

Instead of trying to make me look silly..answer my questions...you might make yourself look even sillier.

he did..only you have no understanding of what chosen and predestined means..i also don’t need to bring anyone into the discussion either.

You cannot reason with God in becoming Born Again, it comes completely out of the blue, just like Jesus explains to Nicodemus, again the natural man won’t understand this, just like Nicodemus he didn’t understand what Jesus said, as he wasn’t Born Again.

A Born Again has been chosen and predestined to become Gods children,but, the natural man has no understanding of this it’s foolishness to you, as it’s spiritually discerned..

God bless you.

Glory to God,
Taken

I don’t need to understand, human reasoning.A Born Again doesn’t reason with God, don’t be ridiculous.

How on earth would you know how to reason with God?

Tell me how you know that God truly exists?

How do you know it’s the Spirit who indwells your spirit?

Is your spirit reborn, what does that mean?

Do you understand what that means?

The seed of God penetrated my spirit and it became reborn? do you know who the seed is?

What does that mean even?

Spirit gives birth to spirit by = Supernatural divine heart revelation..how else would I know my spirit has been reborn?..by whose Living testimony?

What does that all mean to you?

Do you even understand what I wrote?

 

[David in NJ]

How come not one verse has the trinity* in it?



* verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

How come not one verse has 'airplanes' in it?

How come not one verse has 'submarine' in it?

How come not one verse has 'traffic light' in it?

 

[Taken]

How come not one verse has the trinity* in it?



* verse that reads something like The nature of God is a trinity - consisting of the Father, Son & Holy Spirit who are co-equal, co-substantial and co-eternal - and if you do not believe this, you cannot be saved but are damned to hell forever.

It doesn’t require the word Trinity…
When God Himself revealed…
He is without beginning or ending…

He IS;
The Forgiver.
The Giver and Taker of Life.
The Creator AND Maker.
The One Who Works IN a man.

He is The Truth, Power, Life and WAY to be With Him Forever.

God First “worked” IN men…through men.
Called Prophets.
Oops….a failure for men to recognize.


God Secondly “works” IN men , as God “purposed In Himself” to “work IN men”…
who such men Willingly, Freely, Solicit God… that such men …Heartfully Believe and Desire His “works” to be accomplished “IN” Them.

Eph 1
[9] Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Instead of trying to make me look silly..answer my questions...you might make yourself look even sillier.

I do not need to exert any effort to make you look silly. I need only to read your words and notice what you proclaim is not in agreement with Gods Word and disagree with you, as I have.

Your questions have been answered.
Your statements with a question mark are ignored.

 

[Wrangler]

It doesn’t require the word Trinity…

Appeal to Strawman. I did not say the word trinity.

 

[Ritajanice]

I do not need to exert any effort to make you look silly. I need only to read your words and notice what you proclaim is not in agreement with Gods Word and disagree with you, as I have.

Prove it then?

Show my words aren’t in agreement with Gods word?
Challenge me on my words, question me, then I can question you ,on what scripture words mean.that I posted..,I will line them all with scripture for you?..then ask you questions on them?

Your words certainly don’t agree with scripture, that’s for sure...

Your questions have been answered.
Your statements with a question mark are ignored.

Exactly,,,once again all questions unanswered.

 

[Taken]

You cannot reason with God in becoming Born Again….

So?
No one Said to Reason WITH God!

it comes completely out of the blue, just like Jesus explains to Nicodemus, again the natural man won’t understand this, just like Nicodemus he didn’t understand what Jesus said, as he wasn’t Born Again.

It…? A man Born Again in the Spirit and you are claiming the man Is Without ANY awareness.
?

I don’t need to understand, human reasoning.

I noticed.


Eph 5:

[17] Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

Tell me how you know that God truly exists?

You already asked that and was answered.

 

[Taken]

Post # 173

Appeal to Strawman. I did not say the word trinity.

Post # 166

[POST #166]
How come not one verse has the trinity* in it?

So you say, yet your post #166 is clearly your post.

No matter…your are I are in disagreement on several Biblical points of Standing.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Scott Downey]

Maybe not even then will we understand God.

May not fully understand but Jesus said we will see God if pure in heart.
Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. And that includes seeing Him as He IS. As the I AM. Just like the holy angels do.

We are pure in heart if born of God as we have a new spirit within us that God created according to righteousness and holiness.
And we continue to believe

Hebrews 12:14
Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:

 

[Ritajanice]

So?
No one Said to Reason WITH God!

Read my answers, stop evading them?

It…? A man Born Again in the Spirit and you are claiming the man Is Without ANY awareness.

Who testifies with our spirit? When we are Born Again @Taken ?

?

Here they are again for you?

You honestly think you had a say in becoming reborn by the seed of God..LOL...
I don’t need to understand, human reasoning.A Born Again doesn’t reason with God, don’t be ridiculous.

How on earth would you know how to reason with God?

Tell me how you know that God truly exists?

How do you know it’s the Spirit who indwells your spirit?

Is your spirit reborn, what does that mean?

Do you understand what that means?

The seed of God penetrated my spirit and it became reborn? do you know who the seed is?

What does that mean even?

Spirit gives birth to spirit by = Supernatural divine heart revelation..how else would I know my spirit has been reborn?..by whose Living testimony?

What does that all mean to you?

Do you even understand what I wrote?

Why aren’t you answering my Spirit questions?

I noticed.


Eph 5:

[17] Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

We are Born Of The Spirit.i ask you again.what does that mean?

You already asked that and was answered.

No you haven’t you haven’t given any living testimony answers, because you haven’t a clue what I’m talking about.

 

[Taken]

Prove it then?

Already Have…to which it is beyond your reasoning ability to understand, thus you ask the same questions again.

 

[Ritajanice]

Already Have…to which it is beyond your reasoning ability to understand, thus you ask the same questions again.

You have done no such thing.,because you haven’t a clue what I’m talking about...LOL.

You cannot , repeat, cannot have any say in becoming Born Of The Spirit.can you see that and understand what it means,,BORN OF THE SPIRIT..NOT THE FLESH..BORN OF THE SPIRIT.= supernatural divine heart revelation..I’d love to hear how you chose that supernatural act..LOL..

I don’t need to understand, human reasoning.A Born Again doesn’t reason with God, don’t be ridiculous.

How on earth would you know how to reason with God?

Tell me how you know that God truly exists?

How do you know it’s the Spirit who indwells your spirit?

Is your spirit reborn, what does that mean?

Do you understand what that means?

The seed of God penetrated my spirit and it became reborn? do you know who the seed is?

What does that mean even?

Spirit gives birth to spirit by = Supernatural divine heart revelation..how else would I know my spirit has been reborn?..by whose Living testimony?

What does that all mean to you?

Do you even understand what I wrote?