THE Trinity can Now be discussed.

[face2face]

Well, ELOHIM started it........and THEY proved it in the Gospel......and in the Apostles......and in Revelation

Your willful blindness is astounding.

The FATHER, the SON and the HOLY SPIRIT are all throughout the Scriptures

And don't start with the jw nonsense about the Holy Spirit not being God either..........

JESUS says: "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”

Best you stop David...pride comes before a fall

 

[David in NJ]

Best you stop David...pride comes before a fall

Pride is what happens when you think yourself smarter then the Word.

The evidence you have pride is when you mock God's words.

 

[face2face]

Pride is what happens when you think yourself smarter then the Word.

The evidence you have pride is when you mock God's words.

David, you cannot answer honestly, as you've been shown many truths today, yet you continue to reject them, even when they are clearly evident right in front of you! @Brakelite I'm doing my best here to show restraint, but this guy is either trolling, or seriously short on grey matter!

 

[Grailhunter]

If that was silly then you do not fear God

Unbelief is a KILLER = for all Eternity

I am trying to be patient with you. There is no body here that is a unbeliever. You are just being silly and rude.
I know the technique where if someone does not like the topic they go into thread fill with non-sense.
On the on the other hand if you want to start a riddle thread, have at it.
This thread is about helping the Bible Only people.

 

[face2face]

I am trying to be patient with you. There is no body here that is a unbeliever. You are just being silly and rude.
I know the technique where if someone does not like the topic they go into thread fill with non-sense.
On the on the other hand if you want to start a riddle thread, have at it.
This thread is about helping the Bible Only people.

When a person is shown to be wrong there are two ways we can respond - David chose that way which leads to death, not life.

All he had to do is say "Yes, my vision has been darkened by trinatarian dogma and I tried to force it upon the Word of God and failed"

F2F

 

[St. SteVen]

@Wrangler

The people Jesus was speaking to understood what he meant
when he said he was the I am and that he was before Abraham.
They picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy. (claiming he was God)

John 8:56-59 NIV
Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself,
slipping away from the temple grounds.

[

 

[Brakelite]

This is the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. (Matthew 1:1)

How can the very first verse of the New Testament be misunderstood by those who hold to Trinitarian beliefs?

Why was it essential Christ be the son of David & Abraham after the flesh? Not just the promises!
What was achieved in God raising up a son from this sinful line?
How does the Trinity fail to build upon this core foundation?
And if the Trinity was true, why does Christ not fully reveal himself as God but rather the offspring of David?

“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star! Rev 22:16.

The Lord attributes his existence to being a descendant of David....which means he could not have pre-existed!

This would however qualify Christ as the firstborn and first begotten of God. It would also qualify him for being a High Priest as one taken from among men.

The Trinity removes all these Gospel foundation points and makes the whole revelation nothing more than a party trick.

F2F

You ought be careful in denying Christ's pre-existence. God sent His Son. Therefore God had a Son to send. A uniquely begotten ontological offspring. Before creation. You say the trinity reduces the level of sacrifice. You say worse. You claim God created a human to overcome sin and die. Where was the sacrifice in that? What did the Father lose? No, as Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only begotten son, so also did God the Father give His only begotten Son... the same Son through which He created all things...a sacrifice that was eternal in that Jesus will always, for eternity, be human. Yet will also always be the Son of God. We all inherit from our parents. Jesus is no exception. He inherited all from the Father. Authority. Power. His Father's life... self existent life... immortal life. Even His Father's name. Jehovah. Now see below...

Fathers life. HE manifested the Same Name that was given to Moses

“1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. 2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount. 3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount. 4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. ”
Exodus 34:1-8 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Was it God the Father who wrote on those tables of stone? No. It was the Son of God, who right there proclaimed His inherited name. It was the Son of God who led Israel out of Egypt. It was the Son of God who led them by fire and cloud across the wilderness. It was the Son of God who communed with Israel throughout their existence. On the mercy seat. In the fiery furnace. Wrestling with Jacob. Talking with Abraham outside Sodom. Jesus was not just a human sacrifice. The Father gave His Son. That's love.

 

[St. SteVen]

God sent His Son. Therefore God had a Son to send.

BINGO!
Well said. Thanks.

[

 

[David in NJ]

You ought be careful in denying Christ's pre-existence. God sent His Son. Therefore God had a Son to send. A uniquely begotten ontological offspring. Before creation. You say the trinity reduces the level of sacrifice. You say worse. You claim God created a human to overcome sin and die. Where was the sacrifice in that? What did the Father lose? No, as Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only begotten son, so also did God the Father give His only begotten Son... the same Son through which He created all things...a sacrifice that was eternal in that Jesus will always, for eternity, be human. Yet will also always be the Son of God. We all inherit from our parents. Jesus is no exception. He inherited all from the Father. Authority. Power. His Father's life... self existent life... immortal life. Even His Father's name. Jehovah. Now see below...


“1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. 2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount. 3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount. 4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. ”
Exodus 34:1-8 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Was it God the Father who wrote on those tables of stone? No. It was the Son of God, who right there proclaimed His inherited name. It was the Son of God who led Israel out of Egypt. It was the Son of God who led them by fire and cloud across the wilderness. It was the Son of God who communed with Israel throughout their existence. On the mercy seat. In the fiery furnace. Wrestling with Jacob. Talking with Abraham outside Sodom. Jesus was not just a human sacrifice. The Father gave His Son. That's love.

Further evidence

John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

John 6:46 "No one has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father."

SHALOM

 

[David in NJ]

When a person is shown to be wrong there are two ways we can respond - David chose that way which leads to death, not life.

All he had to do is say "Yes, my vision has been darkened by trinatarian dogma and I tried to force it upon the Word of God and failed"

F2F

If i said that i would be a liar like you.


John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

John 6:46 "No one has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father."

SHALOM

 

[Grailhunter]

You ought be careful in denying Christ's pre-existence. God sent His Son. Therefore God had a Son to send. A uniquely begotten ontological offspring. Before creation. You say the trinity reduces the level of sacrifice. You say worse. You claim God created a human to overcome sin and die. Where was the sacrifice in that? What did the Father lose? No, as Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only begotten son, so also did God the Father give His only begotten Son... the same Son through which He created all things...a sacrifice that was eternal in that Jesus will always, for eternity, be human. Yet will also always be the Son of God. We all inherit from our parents. Jesus is no exception. He inherited all from the Father. Authority. Power. His Father's life... self existent life... immortal life. Even His Father's name. Jehovah. Now see below...


“1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. 2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount. 3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount. 4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. ”
Exodus 34:1-8 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Was it God the Father who wrote on those tables of stone? No. It was the Son of God, who right there proclaimed His inherited name. It was the Son of God who led Israel out of Egypt. It was the Son of God who led them by fire and cloud across the wilderness. It was the Son of God who communed with Israel throughout their existence. On the mercy seat. In the fiery furnace. Wrestling with Jacob. Talking with Abraham outside Sodom. Jesus was not just a human sacrifice. The Father gave His Son. That's love.

This what people do, they read things into the scriptures that are not there. If Yeshua was actually doing something in the Old Testament, don’t you think the scriptures would be clear on that point.
It would be significant.

The type of imaginative interpretation you deploying can make any scripture mean anything. So no scripture has an actual meaning.

I am not saying that the spirit of Christ was not in the Old Testament but the Old Testament does not indicate that Yeshua the Son of God did anything…..Yahweh and Yeshua did not address each other like in the New Testament.
Post 206

 

[Aunty Jane]

Tools

Gen 32:30 - And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen Godface to face, and my life is preserved.
Tools

Exo 33:11 - And the LORD spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend.And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Tools

Num 14:14 - And they will tell it to the inhabitants of this land: for they have heard that thou LORD art among this people, that thou LORD art seen face to face, and that thy clouds standeth over them, and that thou goest before them, by day time in a pillar of a cloud, and in a pillar of fire by night.
Tools

Deu 5:4 - The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midstof the fire,
Tools

Deu 34:10 - And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses,whom the LORD knew face-to face,

You know that the Bible does not contradict itself...right?
There is a big difference between knowing “theology” and knowing the Bible. Those who study theology know only snippets of Scripture....isolated, and out of context to prove a doctrine, but those who study the Bible know what else it says, allowing the Bible to speak for itself instead of trying to squeeze in false doctrines where they plainly do not fit.

When Moses asked to see God, he was told....”no man may see me and yet live”...(Ex 33:18-23)
The apostle John wrote....(John 1:18)
“No man has seen God at any time”....yet, how many people saw Jesus?

And again at 1 John 4:12..
“ No one has seen God at any time. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us.“ So no one has EVER seen God in any form.

Jacob contended with “a man”, a materialised angel.....not God.

Hosea 12:3-4....of Jacob it is written....
“In the womb he seized his brother by the heel,
And with his vigor he contended with God.
He kept contending with an angel and prevailed.
He wept and begged for his favor.”....

Moses’ communication with God in the Most Holy compartment of the Tabernacle, was a voice that he heard above the Ark of the Covenant with the display of the Shekinah light. (See also Numbers 7:8-9)

Deut 4:12...at Mt Sainai Moses said to his people....
“And Jehovah began to speak to you out of the fire. You heard the sound of words, but you saw no form—there was only a voice.”

Deut 5:4...
“Jehovah spoke face-to-face with you in the mountain, out of the fire.”

The reason why no one ever saw God’s form was also related.....

“Therefore, watch yourselves closely—since you did not see any form on the day Jehovah spoke to you in Horʹeb out of the middle of the fire— 16  that you may not act corruptly by making for yourselves any carved image having the form of any symbol, the representation of male or female”. (Deut 4:15-16)
It was to prevent idolatry.

Concerning Deut 34:10....Moses never saw God’s form....So “face to face” doesn’t mean what you assume it to mean.

 

[Grailhunter]

Yahweh made it absolutely clear that He was the only God in the Old Testament. Where you see the words God and or Lord in most Bibles, in most cases these words replaced YHWH. In the scriptures before they took His name out of the Old Testament it would say YHWH.

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

“You are the Lord, you alone. You have made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them; and you preserve all of them; and the host of heaven worships you. Nehemiah 9:6

“You shall have no other gods before me. Exodus 20:3

To you it was shown, that you might know that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. Deuteronomy 4:35

Know therefore today, and lay it to your heart, that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. Deuteronomy 4:39

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. Deuteronomy 6:4

“See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand. Deuteronomy 32:39

And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. Isaiah 37:20

I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. Isaiah 42:8 (Of course they removed His name.)

“You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me. Isaiah 43:10

I, I am the Lord, and besides me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:11

I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, Isaiah 45:5

Declare and present your case; let them take counsel together! Who told this long ago? Who declared it of old? Was it not I, the Lord? And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. Isaiah 45:21

Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, Isaiah 46:9

That all the peoples of the earth may know that the Lord is God; there is no other. 1st Kings 8:60

There is none like you, O Lord, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 1st Chronicles 17:20

Therefore you are great, O Lord God. For there is none like you, and there is no God besides you, according to all that we have heard with our ears. 2nd Samuel 7:22

And Hezekiah prayed before the Lord and said: “O Lord, the God of Israel, enthroned above the cherubim, you are the God, you alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth; you have made heaven and earth. 2nd Kings 19:15

But I am the Lord your God from the land of Egypt; you know no God but me, and besides me there is no savior. Hosea 13:4

 

[Brakelite]

Wow the foolishness continue to come on thick and fast!

Abraham - The Father
Isaac - The Only Begotten Son of the Father
Jacob - The Multitudenous Seed, i.e., The Saints (stars without number...sand of the seashore!) 12x12 Jew & Gentile

Everything above communicates the meaning of His Name!

Your brain is so sick on false dogma you cannot interpret the Story of the Bible for forcing your falsehood on it.

Terrible!

Two out of three isn’t bad, but it’s still incorrect! @Johann can you see his error?

F2F

Again, a word of advice, and thanks for accepting graciously my last. You are again descending into a mindset of denigration...Your brain is so sick on false dogma you cannot interpret the Story of the Bible for forcing your falsehood on it.... and...Wow the foolishness continue to come on thick and fast!... and...You haven’t forgotten His Name, David; it seems you have never truly known it.
F2F, please, try to communicate without the animosity. Such only brings out darker feelings and expressions from others. I don't always agree with either you or David. But I believe you both to be sincere genuine Christian brothers. I've missed these discussions... please don't jeopardise the freedom the administrators have given us here.

 

[Brakelite]

You ought be careful in denying Christ's pre-existence. God sent His Son. Therefore God had a Son to send. A uniquely begotten ontological offspring. Before creation. You say the trinity reduces the level of sacrifice. You say worse. You claim God created a human to overcome sin and die. Where was the sacrifice in that? What did the Father lose? No, as Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only begotten son, so also did God the Father give His only begotten Son... the same Son through which He created all things...a sacrifice that was eternal in that Jesus will always, for eternity, be human. Yet will also always be the Son of God. We all inherit from our parents. Jesus is no exception. He inherited all from the Father. Authority. Power. His Father's life... self existent life... immortal life. Even His Father's name. Jehovah. Now see below...


“1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. 2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount. 3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount. 4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. ”
Exodus 34:1-8 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

Was it God the Father who wrote on those tables of stone? No. It was the Son of God, who right there proclaimed His inherited name. It was the Son of God who led Israel out of Egypt. It was the Son of God who led them by fire and cloud across the wilderness. It was the Son of God who communed with Israel throughout their existence. On the mercy seat. In the fiery furnace. Wrestling with Jacob. Talking with Abraham outside Sodom. Jesus was not just a human sacrifice. The Father gave His Son. That's love.

I would like to add to this. It was discussed a little earlier, concerning the glory that Jesus said He had with the Father before the creation of the world. As i explained above, names in the Bible reflect character. The reason the Son of God appeared before Moses and proclaimed His name to him, was an answer to prayer. Earlier, Moses had asked,
“18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

And the LORD responded...

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. ”
Exodus 33:18-19 KJV
Unfeigned Bible
Thus we can see that God's glory is God's character... His goodness... His name, which are all bound together.

Now connect the dots...

“5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. ”
John 17:5-6 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

“29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. ”
Romans 8:29-30 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

“For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. ”
Romans 8:18 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

“But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord. ”
2 Corinthians 3:18 KJV

Unfeigned Bible

Unfeigned Bible

www.unfeignedbible.app

And many more besides...

“4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. ”
Hebrews 1:4-8 KJV
Unfeigned Bible

Christ as manifested to the patriarchs, as symbolized in the sacrificial service, as portrayed in the law, and as revealed by the prophets, is the riches of the Old Testament. Christ in His life, His death, and His resurrection, Christ as He is manifested by the Holy Spirit, is the treasure of the New Testament. Our Saviour, the outshining of the Father's glory, is both the Old and the New.

 

[face2face]

Christ as manifested to the patriarchs, as symbolized in the sacrificial service, as portrayed in the law, and as revealed by the prophets, is the riches of the Old Testament. Christ in His life, His death, and His resurrection, Christ as He is manifested by the Holy Spirit, is the treasure of the New Testament. Our Saviour, the outshining of the Father's glory, is both the Old and the New.

Jesus is a promised Son, just like Isaac in the Old Testament. For Christ to have been God, or even a pre-existing being, His existence could not have been the result of a promise, by definition.

The Glory which is God's is shared with Christ (and us, if found faithful) therefore this Glory which is eternal has always been, and will always be.

This verse in Relevation is a "so what" moment if you beleive Jesus pre-existed or is God.

and the one who lives! I was dead, but look, now I am alive—forever and ever—and I hold the keys of death and of Hades (grave)! Re 1:18.
,
It's value is bound up in Christ having a begining (birth) a life and a death, only to be raised to Glory. If he is God this would nullify him from being the Firstfruits of them that sleep, and he cannot be our High Priest chosen from among men, if he is a God.

5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1 Tim 2:5

God does not lie! Christ is a Man who was given life, lived, died, and was raised to glory, as the Bible teaches. If He is God, then God has misrepresented him to the world in some great deception. how many have swallowed that deception and confusion is rife - just look at this thread and look at the false statements made about Scripture.

Ultimately, Trinitarians must deny the true nature of Christ's death...which means the curtain in his flesh was not rent and he did not ascend into the Holy of Holies for the first time.

by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, Heb 10:20

If he didn't completely die (curtain rent) then the curtain was not rent and this new and living way was not acheived in him. The Trinity removes Christs true nature, which is why its an abhorent doctrine in the Fathers eyes.

This discussion can only be resolved through a correct understanding of Christ's nature. Once you hold the same understanding as the Apostles the Trinity falls away quickly.

F2F

 

[face2face]

If i said that i would be a liar like you.


John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.

John 6:46 "No one has seen the Father, except He who is from God; He has seen the Father."

SHALOM

Be careful how you answer this David.

Did the Son of man literally come down from heaven?

If so, How?

If not, How?

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

What is the name that JESUS declared???

The name of his God and Father....who only has one name, (Psalm 83:18) whereas Jesus has several.

HE manifested the Same Name that was given to Moses

Yes he did.....a name that the Jews had long since neglected to repeat, in spite of their mandate through Moses to keep God’s name as something “hallowed”.....as Jesus said in the Lord’s Prayer.

What was the eternal name given to Moses?

Clue - "This is My Name FOREVER......."

Exodus 3:13-15. From the Jewish Tanakh....

“13 And Moses said to God, "Behold I come to the children of Israel, and I say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they say to me, 'What is His name?' what shall I say to them?"		יגוַיֹּ֨אמֶר משֶׁ֜ה אֶל־הָֽאֱלֹהִ֗ים הִנֵּ֨ה אָֽנֹכִ֣י בָא֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וְאָֽמַרְתִּ֣י לָהֶ֔ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י אֲבֽוֹתֵיכֶ֖ם שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם וְאָֽמְרוּ־לִ֣י מַה־שְּׁמ֔וֹ מָ֥ה אֹמַ֖ר אֲלֵהֶֽם:
14 God said to Moses, "Ehyeh asher ehyeh (I will be what I will be)," and He said, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'Ehyeh (I will be) has sent me to you.'"		ידוַיֹּ֤אמֶר אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶל־משֶׁ֔ה אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶֽהְיֶ֑ה וַיֹּ֗אמֶר כֹּ֤ה תֹאמַר֙ לִבְנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל אֶֽהְיֶ֖ה שְׁלָחַ֥נִי אֲלֵיכֶֽם:
15 And God said further to Moses, "So shall you say to the children of Israel, 'The Lord God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.' This is My name forever, and this is how I should be mentioned in every generation.”		טווַיֹּ֩אמֶר֩ ע֨וֹד אֱלֹהִ֜ים אֶל־משֶׁ֗ה כֹּ֣ה תֹאמַר֘ אֶל־בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ יְהֹוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֣י אֲבֹֽתֵיכֶ֗ם אֱלֹהֵ֨י אַבְרָהָ֜ם אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִצְחָ֛ק וֵֽאלֹהֵ֥י יַֽעֲקֹ֖ב שְׁלָחַ֣נִי אֲלֵיכֶ֑ם זֶה־שְּׁמִ֣י לְעֹלָ֔ם וְזֶ֥ה זִכְרִ֖י לְדֹ֥ר דֹּֽר:

Despite the fact that the Jews refrained from uttering the divine name, they actually kept it in their text.
Where you see “The Lord God” there in English....look and see the Tetragrammaton in the Hebrew text.
So the name Jesus came to bring back to God’s Christian worshippers was יְהֹוָ֞ה .....YAHWEH.

Jacob’s name was changed to “Israel” after his contending with an angel......the children of Israel were all his descendants. Yahweh was their one God.

Deut 6:4...

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one.

דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:

“The Lord” is “YAHWEH”.

HE manifested the Same Name that was given to Moses

And the English translation of that is JEHOVAH. (Psalm 83:18 KJV)

 

[face2face]

Jesus didn't just declare his Father's name; he lived it!

The Lord Jesus, both manifested and declared the Name of Yahweh to the apostles in John 17:6, 26 and taught them to pray: "Hallowed be Thy Name."

On the other hand, the false prophets of Israel, were indicted by Yahweh because, as He declared, their teaching caused the people to "forget My name" (Jer 23:27).

The Name of the Father must be treated with understanding and reverence. One wonders How God views those who try to manipulate His name to mean something it does not?

F2F

 

[face2face]

You ought be careful in denying Christ's pre-existence. God sent His Son.

In the mind of the Father and in accordance with the purpose of His Word, which is sent forth to accomplish His will, yes, in His mind He was sending forth a Son. This is no different from God sending forth His Word to create the Heavens and the Earth—everything coming from His Logos (His Mind and Reason).

The problem with your statement is that you impose a literal interpretation without recognizing the spiritual nuance being conveyed.

Therefore God had a Son to send.

Correct - let me share something about my Father which you may not know.

as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist. Romans 4:17

This is the God Who speaks of a Son who doesnt exist as though he did and does.

How can my God do this Brakelight and yours not?

A uniquely begotten ontological offspring. Before creation.

The beginning of Christ occurred through the power of the Holy Spirit, leading to His conception in Mary—born of a woman, born under the Law, as Scripture tells us. The idea you present is a fabrication in your mind because, as you and I both know, there is no supporting backstory or scriptural evidence to prove it. It is simply a notion you have inserted into the Word without any biblical foundation.

You say the trinity reduces the level of sacrifice. You say worse. You claim God created a human to overcome sin and die. Where was the sacrifice in that?

God declared His Righteosness in the Son of Man - a person who fully represented all that man is in nature and in mind.

How would God have victory over flesh and removing the Law of Sin & Death if He couldn't do this in His Son? Where else could He do this?

15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! 1 Co 15:56–57 & Romans 8:1-3

If the sting of death is sin and the power of sin is the law, how then did God condemn sin in the flesh by gaining a victory through the Lord Jesus Christ?

How is Sin found in your God so that it can be condemned?
How was sin represented in Christ for God to condemn it?

How was this victory "though" Christs death?

Can God dwell in Sins Flesh?

See your problem Brakelite?

If Christ is a man with unique origins, yet still a man, and He chose full and willing obedience by submitting to a gruesome death, would you not recognize the sacrifice in that?

Further more - would that man be worthy of exaltation and great praise?

What did the Father lose? No, as Abraham was willing to sacrifice his only begotten son, so also did God the Father give His only begotten Son...

Correct – the offering of Isaac is the most poignant example of God offering His Son.

the same Son through which He created all things...a sacrifice that was eternal in that Jesus will always, for eternity, be human.

In the Logos of the Father all things in this age have been created for and on behalf of His Son - this again does not mean he pre-existed.

Yet will also always be the Son of God. We all inherit from our parents. Jesus is no exception. He inherited all from the Father. Authority. Power. His Father's life... self existent life... immortal life. Even His Father's name. Jehovah. Now see below...

If Jesus pre-existed, He would have no inheritance, as inheritance is given to those who are born or adopted, not to those who already exist. I'm sure you're beginning to see the dilemma with your above statement.

Your understanding makes a mockery of his inheritence; his name, throne and all that is given to him was already and has been in his possession all along.

Now you might be starting to see the enormity of Hebrews 1 and why the Angels cast their crowns before him. What man has shnown such obedience and ascended such heights?

1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my son! Today I have fathered you”? Heb 1:5.

Which Son Brakelite?

Wow, when this truth hits the minds of Christians it will blow their mind the Victory God had and how he achieved it!

Hope you are ready Brakelite!

“1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest. 2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount. 3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount. 4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone. 5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. 6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, 7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. 8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped. ”
Exodus 34:1-8 KJV

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Was it God the Father who wrote on those tables of stone? No. It was the Son of God, who right there proclaimed His inherited name. It was the Son of God who led Israel out of Egypt. It was the Son of God who led them by fire and cloud across the wilderness. It was the Son of God who communed with Israel throughout their existence. On the mercy seat. In the fiery furnace. Wrestling with Jacob. Talking with Abraham outside Sodom. Jesus was not just a human sacrifice. The Father gave His Son. That's love.

This is so wrong on so many levels - where to start!

you who received the law as delivered by angels and did not keep it.” Acts 7:52

The Angel who bore the Yahweh Name was not the Lord Jesus Christ - that is nowhere written in the Word of God.

Exodus 14:19 "And the angel of God which went before the camp of Israel" This angel is described by Isaiah as the "angel of His presence" in Isa. 63:9. The angel is identified with Yahweh in Exo 13:21. Because "His name was in him" (Exo. 23:20-21) we see that God's presence and authority were with His messenger. This concept is further reflected in Exo. 32:34, Num. 20:16, and Psa. 77:20. The angels continue to serve Yahweh, actively watching over His "little ones" see Mat. 18:10, symbolized as "encamping around those who fear Yahweh" (Psa. 34:7). This demonstrates the ongoing care and protection Yahweh provides through His messengers.

I’m not going to continue discussing this point, Brakelite, as it is unscriptural, lacks evidence, and overlooks the ministering work of the Elohim of God. It’s simply misguided exegesis.

F2F