What is the basis for the unbeliever's condemnation?

[face2face]

Men looove to tell others what they should do. It makes them feel authoritative. They will use any pretext to achieve that end.....particularly that of using scripture to underpin and judge others.

When a joke is told and all laugh, the one telling the joke gets glory (in their own heads)......so, the emphasis on 'should' and tut tut tut, you're not believing it right, brings the focus back to King Self without missing a beat ie, the awareness that something is misplaced.

I can see now why you were reluctant to speak to that passage, makes sense. Are you afraid to allow the Word of God to speak to you? Now that I think of it, I've seen you make very eloquent statements at it, but never enter it. Is there a fear of getting too close to the Word that you might lose you objectivity? It's like the older brother looking into his own home and family watching them celebrate his younger brothers return, but unable to open the door and walk in and embrace him. Are you the older brother quiet?

Let's continue...

The Third requirement of God after you are now walking in His Ways is "to love Him" Love manifests a readiness to sacrifice self-interest in the performance of God's will. It is a necessary addition to both fear and walk (2 John 6)

1:6 (Now this is love: that we walk according to his commandments.) This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning; thus you should walk in it 2 Jn 6.

No doubt you are seeing the OT & NT agree with each other showing us God has not changed in term of His requirements.

Trust this sits well with you quiet?

As a side, fear - - - >walk- - - - >love, presents an interesting insight in itself - I doubt many people if asked, would present the order like this, but there is wisdom in the order. We learn to love Him as we fear Him & walk in Him. It's in the walking that we stumble and learn to trust Him. No different to children and parents really. You see the irony in this command?

The context is Moses' reviewing of past failures on Israel's part and this message is its climax. Its a powerful positive message about the responsibilities resting upon Israel, and how they are expected to carry them. He warns them that in treating with God, they do so with One who is able to reward or punish. Therefore, there is need to fear His holy name, and to respect the ordinances that He has set before them.

Will this type of fear return to the earth?

Lets hope so soon.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

I can see now why you were reluctant to speak to that passage, makes sense. Are you afraid to allow the Word of God to speak to you? Now that I think of it, I've seen you make very eloquent statements at it, but never enter it. Is there a fear of getting too close to the Word that you might lose you objectivity? It's like the older brother looking into his own home and family watching them celebrate his younger brothers return, but unable to open the door and walk in and embrace him. Are you the older brother quiet?

Let's continue...

The Third requirement of God after you are now walking in His Ways is "to love Him" Love manifests a readiness to sacrifice self-interest in the performance of God's will. It is a necessary addition to both fear and walk (2 John 6)

1:6 (Now this is love: that we walk according to his commandments.) This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning; thus you should walk in it 2 Jn 6.

No doubt you are seeing the OT & NT agree with each other showing us God has not changed in term of His requirements.

Trust this sits well with you quiet?

As a side, fear - - - >walk- - - - >love, presents an interesting insight in itself - I doubt many people if asked, would present the order like this, but there is wisdom in the order. We learn to love Him as we fear Him & walk in Him. It's in the walking that we stumble and learn to trust Him. No different to children and parents really. You see the irony in this command?

The context is Moses' reviewing of past failures on Israel's part and this message is its climax. Its a powerful positive message about the responsibilities resting upon Israel, and how they are expected to carry them. He warns them that in treating with God, they do so with One who is able to reward or punish. Therefore, there is need to fear His holy name, and to respect the ordinances that He has set before them.

Will this type of fear return to the earth?

Lets hope so soon.

F2F

We learn to love him as we see (emotion/ understanding) how much we are loved.
Doing is wonderful, however doing is a response to seeing....not the other way around. You do not learn to love someone by all the doings in the World.
The various 'doings' or 'should's' is the focus of the Pagan world.......and with all their doings and should's and many words to explain, they still hate each other.

The healing experienced by the Israelites was the result of looking/ seeing the brass serpent Moses erected. It is recorded for our education.

 

[face2face]

We learn to love him as we see (emotion/ understanding) how much we are loved.

This is true and in keeping with the constant message of Scripture.

Doing is wonderful, however doing is a response to seeing....not the other way around. You do not learn to love someone by all the doings in the World.
The various 'doings' or 'should's' is the focus of the Pagan world.......and with all their doings and should's and many words to explain, they still hate each other.

I'm not sure of the point you are making here - seems convoluted.

So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. James 4:17

Clear question Quiet...is this a "should?"

The healing experienced by the Israelites was the result of looking/ seeing the brass serpent Moses erected. It is recorded for our education.

There has not been a healing, but a hardening of Israel, only the Elect of them have been healed.

Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God—harshness toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off Ro 11:22.

The secrets of God were not known to many in Israel, just as today, the secrets are not known of the Gentiles of what God will do in His People when the Lord returns.

This is what makes it difficult having a discussion with anyone who does not know (or understand) those secrets - they remain so, until one truly fears the Lord, walks in His way and learns to loves and serve Him.

You see just as there was a partial hardening of Israel, so today, there is a partial hardening of Christians who have been blinded to the things God has prepared for Israel and the earth at His Sons coming.

29:29 Secret things belong to the Lord our God, but those that are revealed belong to us and our descendants forever, so that we might obey all the words of this law. Dt 29:29.

If you don't know, you don't know.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker

The fourth requirement "And to serve Yahweh thy God with all thy heart (mind), and with all thy soul (life)" — To serve is to submit to the status of a servant; that is, to acknowledge the authority and right of God as Master.

So since we are receiving an unshakable kingdom, let us give thanks, and through this let us offer worship pleasing to God in devotion and awe. 12:29 For our God is indeed a devouring fire Heb 12:27–29.

Fear, walk, love and serve.

Moses leaves this exhortation but one more requirement is given - a fifth

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

Men looove to tell others what they should do.

Irrelevant. God is telling us what we should do and that is where it is at.

Changing the subject is unbecoming.

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker

The fifth and final requirement comprises the sum total of 1-4; fear, walk, love, serve and....

"To keep the commandments of Yahweh, and his statutes, which I command you this day"

The word "keep" is from a Hebrew root signifying to hedge, guard, protect, attend. It has the connotation of carefully meditating these commandments with the object of fulfilling them. To do this requires constant meditations of the Word of God, such as Paul recommended Timothy to give 1 Tim. 4:13-16. This is the fifth and final instruction of Moses at this time.

Until I come, give attention to the public reading of scripture, to exhortation, to teaching. 4:14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift you have, given to you and confirmed by prophetic words when the elders laid hands on you. 4:15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that everyone will see your progress. 4:16 Be conscientious about how you live and what you teach. Persevere in this, because by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you. 1 Ti 4:12–16.

The relationship between those "words of eternal life" and walking in them is the focus of judgement at the Lords coming. We all fall short of the Glory of God but some will fall to their own hurt.

I hope you have found something of value the Scriptures quoted and the 5 things God requires of us.

God bless
F2F

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker

So bringing this discussion full circle my point re your Rev 12 quotation (#38) is that only those who truly commit their lives to "being absorbed in the Word" are likely to find the secrets of God. There are some secrets which I call wisdom, those divine principles He imparts to His Children and then there are those secrets which only the Elect know and understand.

An example is seen in the seven blessings of Revelation (Rev 1:3; 14:13; 16:15; 19:9; 20:7 & 22:14) all apply to those who absorb themselves in learning the Symbiology and Historical landmarks which show its fulfillment.

This Revelation is a direct letter to the Elect down through the ages (approx. 1950 years) whereby Saints in training have been able to see fulfilled prophecy but also gain strength and encouragement of God working in the signs of their times.

I won't go any further, although this does have a lot to do with the OP I sense its taking it into another theme.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker

and to keep the Lord’s commandments and statutes that I am giving you today for your own good? Dt 10:12–13.

Some believers are NT only but I love the OT because its the foundation upon which the House of God is built - all the commandments and promises are yes in Christ Jesus & even the root of the Christ tree are the Promises of God.

Those 5 requirements if lived are for our own good.

Can you see where the Apostle Paul sourced his wisdom?

And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose Ro 8:28.

For “physical exercise has some value, but godliness is valuable in every way. It holds promise for the present life and for the life to come.”
1 Ti 4:8.

To "love" God involves a respect for His Word, manifested in an earnest attempt to keep it....which is why we must (and should) know it. Entering it cannot be done by holding your own views and applying them to the Word.

Back to the OP

God's people are not immune from trials, however the Word of God enable them to discern the purpose of trials and see beyond them.

Consider the circumstances of Daniel. He was taken into captivity. It would not have been a pleasant experience at all! However, those who were left behind, believed that they had been blessed of God, in being exempt from the captivity. But that was not the case! In fact, the captivity was for the good of those affected. Jeremiah was told: "I will acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans, for their good" (Jer. 24:5).

It was safer for Daniel and his companions to be in Babylon than to experience the holocaust of Jerusalem when attacked by Nebuchadnezzar.

Quiet, this is Bible Study! Now can you see faith manifested in the ways indicated in the verses we have considered? That good will be experienced now, as well as in the age to come? However, note the progression of virtues listed here: "to fear", "to walk", "to love", "to serve", "to keep".

A man may fear, and walk without love. Love is the bond of perfectness (Col 3:14), and will be manifested in "serving" and "keeping" the Word and Way of God. A God of such majesty and justice as God (see Deut 10:20-22) should command the reverence, devotion, and praise of Israel spiritual and natural.

Now those who restrain their lusts and passion and bend their will to Gods will prove to be for their good.

Genuine happiness is always associated with the performance of duty. "Taste and see that Yahweh is good", counselled the Psalmist (Psa. 34:8). The pleasure and enjoyment of spiritual pursuits never wane. Those of other matters associated with the flesh do, for they are temporary and limited. For example, the benefits of eating flesh (though granted by God) is limited, but the effort of consuming the Word never fails; it is of permanent value, and never wastes.

A man such as yourself ought to cast away all worldly wisdom and have your conscience cleansed by the washing of the Word of God. only then can you make your election sure and be ready for the Masters return.

He has hidden wisdom in His Word for those of His Children who would look for it.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

@quietthinker

and to keep the Lord’s commandments and statutes that I am giving you today for your own good? Dt 10:12–13.

Some believers are NT only but I love the OT because its the foundation upon which the House of God is built - all the commandments and promises are yes in Christ Jesus & even the root of the Christ tree are the Promises of God.

Those 5 requirements if lived are for our own good.

Can you see where the Apostle Paul sourced his wisdom?

And we know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose Ro 8:28.

For “physical exercise has some value, but godliness is valuable in every way. It holds promise for the present life and for the life to come.”
1 Ti 4:8.

To "love" God involves a respect for His Word, manifested in an earnest attempt to keep it....which is why we must (and should) know it. Entering it cannot be done by holding your own views and applying them to the Word.

Back to the OP

God's people are not immune from trials, however the Word of God enable them to discern the purpose of trials and see beyond them.

Consider the circumstances of Daniel. He was taken into captivity. It would not have been a pleasant experience at all! However, those who were left behind, believed that they had been blessed of God, in being exempt from the captivity. But that was not the case! In fact, the captivity was for the good of those affected. Jeremiah was told: "I will acknowledge them that are carried away captive of Judah, whom I have sent out of this place into the land of the Chaldeans, for their good" (Jer. 24:5).

It was safer for Daniel and his companions to be in Babylon than to experience the holocaust of Jerusalem when attacked by Nebuchadnezzar.

Quiet, this is Bible Study! Now can you see faith manifested in the ways indicated in the verses we have considered? That good will be experienced now, as well as in the age to come? However, note the progression of virtues listed here: "to fear", "to walk", "to love", "to serve", "to keep".

A man may fear, and walk without love. Love is the bond of perfectness (Col 3:14), and will be manifested in "serving" and "keeping" the Word and Way of God. A God of such majesty and justice as God (see Deut 10:20-22) should command the reverence, devotion, and praise of Israel spiritual and natural.

Now those who restrain their lusts and passion and bend their will to Gods will prove to be for their good.

Genuine happiness is always associated with the performance of duty. "Taste and see that Yahweh is good", counselled the Psalmist (Psa. 34:8). The pleasure and enjoyment of spiritual pursuits never wane. Those of other matters associated with the flesh do, for they are temporary and limited. For example, the benefits of eating flesh (though granted by God) is limited, but the effort of consuming the Word never fails; it is of permanent value, and never wastes.

A man such as yourself ought to cast away all worldly wisdom and have your conscience cleansed by the washing of the Word of God. only then can you make your election sure and be ready for the Masters return.

He has hidden wisdom in His Word for those of His Children who would look for it.

F2F

Is this the Pearl of Great price you have sold everything for to acquire f2f?

 

[face2face]

Is this the Pearl of Great price you have sold everything for to acquire f2f?

It lead me to the pearl of great price quiet. A sinner of sinners and without hope in the world He gave hope to the hopeless.

Did you notice the import of Deut 10:14?

Maybe you can see the pearl?

 

[face2face]

Is this the Pearl of Great price you have sold everything for to acquire f2f?

In this thread you failed to enter - you know that, but what can be done to change your approach? Did you learn anything from this short study? Did you reflect a single principle of His, or did you use your avoidance tactics to deflect His light?

Do you know how many threads I could show you where this has been your default approach?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. Dt 10:14.

One simple verse within its context trying to reach you @quietthinker

Can you make a single observation?

Read through the recent posts and get a handle on what it is God is teaching you there.

I'm hopeful!

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

Behold, to the Lord your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. Dt 10:14.

One simple verse within its context trying to reach you @quietthinker

Can you make a single observation?

Read through the recent posts and get a handle on what it is God is teaching you there.

I'm hopeful!

F2F

Subjectivity it seems is the affliction of those unwilling to let go of navel gazing.
Objectivity is the gift given when navel gazing and self focus no longer has the appeal it once promised.

 

[Earburner]

I have intentionally made the topic rather vague to bring out the two aspects of condemnation. There are two, distinct condemnations mentioned in Scripture. The first condemnation is called 'positional' condemnation. This is given to each person born into the world. In other words, it is the condemnation of being "in Adam." See Romans 5 for the contrast between Christ and Adam's positional truth. God condemns each person who enters this world with positional condemnation (i.e., in Adam). With this positional condemnation, we are immediately born qualified to be the recipients of God's grace and mercy. This is illustrated in Rom 11.32.

The other condemnation is 'eternal' condemnation. This is what happens when a person rejects Christ as Savior, see Matt 12.37. A person is eternally condemned by rejecting Jesus as Savior. It is by his words that he is condemned. The important thing to remember is nobody is born eternally condemned, only positional condemnation. As an illustration of this, see 2 Sam 12. David's new born child died and went to Paradise. This is why David says he will see his son again, because there is no basic for the child's eternal condemnation, only positional condemnation.

Another important point to bring out is that unbelievers are not eternally condemned for their personal sins. All sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross. That is why the gospel is the good news to unbelievers. The issue is no longer sin, but a Son. Go to any judgment passage for believers or unbelievers, you will not see the word sin mentioned. For the believer, he goes to the Rewards Ceremony (mistranslated Judgment Seat of Christ) after being rewarded for his works. For the unbeliever, he goes to the Lake of Fire based on his works (his works will not get him into heaven). Not by works of righteousness which we have done...

I will reread this post after I get back tonight. Didn't have time to edit it yet.

John 3
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned  ALREADY,
BECAUSE he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 11
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

 

[quietthinker]

John 3
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned  ALREADY,
BECAUSE he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

You forgot to highlight and underline 'name'. ....and I would ask, what is 'name' referencing?

 

[KUWN]

John 3
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned  ALREADY,
BECAUSE he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 11
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

No one is eternally condemned until they die without believing in Christ. They can always accept Christ while they are alive.

 

[face2face]

Subjectivity it seems is the affliction of those unwilling to let go of navel gazing.
Objectivity is the gift given when navel gazing and self focus no longer has the appeal it once promised.

So when will you lift you eyes and start widening your view? Will you continue to be a cloud without water? At what point will you enter the Word and learn wisdom rather than these valueless throw away lines?

F2F

 

[Earburner]

All means All Bruce. Believers are the ones who take advantage. Unbelievers refuse what has been done for them and given to them.

God's justice is deliverance. Man's justice is payback, to put it roughly.

Paul went to the Gentile communities announcing Salvation IN Jesus. It was good news for the alienated.....and the 'alienated' were all Gentiles and those deemed 'sinners' by those who considered themselves privileged.

Unbelief in God's gob smacking generosity is the great sin which alienates men from God rather than God from men

It was 'while we were yet sinners that Christ died for the ungodly' ie, unbelievers in the goodness, generosity and kindness of the greatest lover in Eternity. It totally nullifies Satans claim that God needs and requires appeasing in some form.

The appeasement that is required by God of all sinners, is that they first repent towards God, and then BELIEVE in the shed blood of Christ, for the forgiveness/removal of all their sins.

 

[Earburner]

No one is eternally condemned until they die without believing in Christ. They can always accept Christ while they are alive.

Yes, as I did show that in John 11:26.

 

[face2face]

John 3
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned  ALREADY,
BECAUSE he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 11
[26] And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This is a real issue for T believers as it's his sonship and the name God has given him which holds the saving power and not Deity!

F2F