What is the basis for the unbeliever's condemnation?

[quietthinker]

@quietthinker

“And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 10:19

Note what is required and the order?

Can you see anything significant?

You should have a go at unpacking this quiet, I think you would benefit from its wisdom

F2F

I guess according to you I should, should, should.....do lots of things. Isn't 'should' as far as others are concerned, the favourite word of all who seek control?

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Once again, brother @Bruce-Leiter, my message wasn’t directed at you but at @St. SteVen, who holds universalist beliefs. For him to truly love his "enemies," he’d have to include even Ha-Satan and demons in that love to stay consistent with his views.

What a day it’s been!

J.

Thanks for your clarification; it just showed up in my inbox, that's all, brother.

 

[face2face]

I guess according to you I should, should, should.....do lots of things. Isn't 'should' as far as others are concerned, the favourite word of all who seek control?

Depends on how sensitive you are I guess...and if the intention is to increase your learning and understanding of the One True God, why not?

Did you find the order of interest?

F2F

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker let me ask the question another way.

Is the order relevant with meaning, or irrelevant without meaning?

“And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 10:19

If relevant, how?

Thoughts?

 

[quietthinker]

@quietthinker let me ask the question another way.

Is the order relevant with meaning, or irrelevant without meaning?

“And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 10:19

If relevant, how?

Thoughts?

what are you wanting to say f2f?

 

[face2face]

what are you wanting to say f2f?

Curious if you can till the ground? Entering the text and turning it over is a learnt skill.

 

[quietthinker]

Curious if you can till the ground? Entering the text and turning it over is a learnt skill.

Just say what you want to say without the need for a set up :)

 

[face2face]

Just say what you want to say without the need for a set up :)

The point of the question was for you to consider the verse and think about the order, themes, divine reason for the order and whether you have an opinion on what was expected of Israel. Does God change? Do these qualities change from NT to OT?

I've got my thoughts on it but I asked if you had considered it - no set up and its not like I'm proving some unknown teaching.

“And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 10:19

I tend to see great meaning in these words for the simpliest of believers.

F2F

 

[Johann]

I have intentionally made the topic rather vague to bring out the two aspects of condemnation. There are two, distinct condemnations mentioned in Scripture. The first condemnation is called 'positional' condemnation. This is given to each person born into the world. In other words, it is the condemnation of being "in Adam." See Romans 5 for the contrast between Christ and Adam's positional truth. God condemns each person who enters this world with positional condemnation (i.e., in Adam). With this positional condemnation, we are immediately born qualified to be the recipients of God's grace and mercy. This is illustrated in Rom 11.32.

The other condemnation is 'eternal' condemnation. This is what happens when a person rejects Christ as Savior, see Matt 12.37. A person is eternally condemned by rejecting Jesus as Savior. It is by his words that he is condemned. The important thing to remember is nobody is born eternally condemned, only positional condemnation. As an illustration of this, see 2 Sam 12. David's new born child died and went to Paradise. This is why David says he will see his son again, because there is no basic for the child's eternal condemnation, only positional condemnation.

Another important point to bring out is that unbelievers are not eternally condemned for their personal sins. All sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross. That is why the gospel is the good news to unbelievers. The issue is no longer sin, but a Son. Go to any judgment passage for believers or unbelievers, you will not see the word sin mentioned. For the believer, he goes to the Rewards Ceremony (mistranslated Judgment Seat of Christ) after being rewarded for his works. For the unbeliever, he goes to the Lake of Fire based on his works (his works will not get him into heaven). Not by works of righteousness which we have done...

I will reread this post after I get back tonight. Didn't have time to edit it yet.

The basis for the unbeliever's condemnation in Scripture is rooted primarily in their rejection of God and refusal to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Several key aspects are drawn from biblical texts to outline this condemnation:

Rejection of Christ: One of the central reasons for condemnation is the rejection of Jesus Christ, who is presented as the only way to salvation. In John 3:18, the text emphasizes that unbelievers are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the Son of God: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” Faith in Christ is the primary requirement for avoiding condemnation.

Rejection of God's Revelation: The condemnation of the unbeliever also stems from their refusal to acknowledge and respond to God's general revelation in creation. Romans 1:18-20 highlights that God's invisible attributes and divine nature have been made clear through creation, so people are without excuse. Those who suppress the truth revealed in nature fall under God’s wrath.

Willful Sin and Disobedience: Hebrews 10:26-27 shows that deliberate sin after knowing the truth results in severe judgment. Unbelief often translates into ongoing disobedience and rebellion against God's commands, which leads to the righteous judgment of God.

Failure to Repent: According to Luke 13:3, Jesus emphasizes the necessity of repentance: "Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Unbelievers who refuse to turn away from sin and embrace the message of repentance will face judgment.

Living in Darkness: John 3:19-20 explains that condemnation arises because people love darkness rather than light. They prefer their sinful deeds over coming to the light, which would expose and challenge their behavior. This preference for darkness and sin results in spiritual blindness and separation from God.

Thus, unbelief, rejection of Christ, refusal to repent, and suppression of God's truth are the core reasons for the unbeliever's condemnation according to Scripture. The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes that faith in Jesus Christ is the only means by which one can avoid condemnation and receive eternal life (John 3:36).


J.

 

[quietthinker]

The point of the question was for you to consider the verse and think about the order, themes, divine reason for the order and whether you have an opinion on what was expected of Israel. Does God change? Do these qualities change from NT to OT?

I've got my thoughts on it but I asked if you had considered it - no set up and its not like I'm proving some unknown teaching.

“And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 10:19

I tend to see great meaning in these words for the simpliest of believers.

F2F

Please explain your insights

 

[face2face]

Please explain your insights

The first of five requirements is to fear Him.

Reverence or awe at the majesty and glory of God is a first essential to true worship.

Without the first, I expect the others are impossible to attain.

F2F

 

[KUWN]

The basis for the unbeliever's condemnation in Scripture is rooted primarily in their rejection of God and refusal to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. Several key aspects are drawn from biblical texts to outline this condemnation:

Rejection of Christ: One of the central reasons for condemnation is the rejection of Jesus Christ, who is presented as the only way to salvation. In John 3:18, the text emphasizes that unbelievers are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the Son of God: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” Faith in Christ is the primary requirement for avoiding condemnation.

Rejection of God's Revelation: The condemnation of the unbeliever also stems from their refusal to acknowledge and respond to God's general revelation in creation. Romans 1:18-20 highlights that God's invisible attributes and divine nature have been made clear through creation, so people are without excuse. Those who suppress the truth revealed in nature fall under God’s wrath.

Willful Sin and Disobedience: Hebrews 10:26-27 shows that deliberate sin after knowing the truth results in severe judgment. Unbelief often translates into ongoing disobedience and rebellion against God's commands, which leads to the righteous judgment of God.

Failure to Repent: According to Luke 13:3, Jesus emphasizes the necessity of repentance: "Unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." Unbelievers who refuse to turn away from sin and embrace the message of repentance will face judgment.

Living in Darkness: John 3:19-20 explains that condemnation arises because people love darkness rather than light. They prefer their sinful deeds over coming to the light, which would expose and challenge their behavior. This preference for darkness and sin results in spiritual blindness and separation from God.

Thus, unbelief, rejection of Christ, refusal to repent, and suppression of God's truth are the core reasons for the unbeliever's condemnation according to Scripture. The New Testament repeatedly emphasizes that faith in Jesus Christ is the only means by which one can avoid condemnation and receive eternal life (John 3:36).


J.

This is a good summary of eternal condemnation. thanks

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker

The second requirement after fearing Him, is to begin "To walk in all His ways" This requires the application of principles in action. Fear, or reverence, should motivate action (James 1:22).

But be sure you live out the message and do not merely listen to it and so deceive yourselves Jas 1:21–22.

I do believe the sequence is carefully chosen by God and was delivered to Moses and the people as a means of practicing how to live right before Him.

F2F

 

[Wrangler]

This view of "eternal" condemnation is most troubling.

Don’t be troubled. It is an idea confused with the anti-BIblical ECT. Think of the consequences of Judgement Day as final, meaning there is no chance beyond that day to alter your destiny.

There are only 2 options. Sheep or goat. The sheep are saved. The goats are put to death in the Lake of Fire. There is no ECT in the Bible. Death is the wages of sin, not ECT. The 2nd death is eternal.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
This view of "eternal" condemnation is most troubling.

Don’t be troubled. It is an idea confused with the anti-BIblical ECT. Think of the consequences of Judgement Day as final, meaning there is no chance beyond that day to alter your destiny.

But the troubling thing is that IN THIS PASSAGE "eternal" condemnation is based on a person's (or nation's) benevolence.
I don't think this point is emphasized anywhere in the Protestant churches. Seems important. ???

There are only 2 options. Sheep or goat. The sheep are saved. The goats are put to death in the Lake of Fire. There is no ECT in the Bible. Death is the wages of sin, not ECT. The 2nd death is eternal.

But the "options" are at the discretion of Jesus. Not a free-will choice. (in this passage)

All three views of the final judgment are both biblical and contradictory.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Ultimate Redemption

[

 

[Wrangler]

But the troubling thing is that IN THIS PASSAGE "eternal" condemnation is based on a person's (or nation's) benevolence.

What passage?

But the "options" are at the discretion of Jesus. Not a free-will choice. (in this passage)

No but. The judge decides, not the one on trial.

All three views of the final judgment are both biblical and contradictory.
- Damnationism
- Annihilationism
- Ultimate Redemption

Again, there are only 2 verdicts, redeemed or damned. Damnation is the verdict. The penalty is annihilation, aka death - not ECT.

 

[St. SteVen]

What passage?

Oops.
I thought we were on this topic. - LOL

Sheep and goats; benevolence and the kingdom - Sorting out Matthew 25:31-46

Very intriguing chapter/passage. At the judgment Jesus puts the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. - vs 33 The sheep are invited to take their inheritance because of their benevolence to the Body of Christ. The goats are condemned because they didn't. And it ends with this...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[Wrangler]

@quietthinker

“And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 10:19

Note what is required and the order?

I guess according to you I should, should, should.....do lots of things. Isn't 'should' as far as others are concerned, the favourite word of all who seek control?

God is in control and invites us to life with him where he rules without rebellion.

Like so many other posts of yours, this one is disturbing. You take a divine requirement of God regarding our responsibility to share life with God and blaspheme him, perhaps projecting him being in control with others sinful coveting of that power.

 

[Wrangler]

Oops.
I thought we were on this topic. - LOL

Sheep and goats; benevolence and the kingdom - Sorting out Matthew 25:31-46

Very intriguing chapter/passage. At the judgment Jesus puts the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. - vs 33 The sheep are invited to take their inheritance because of their benevolence to the Body of Christ. The goats are condemned because they didn't. And it ends with this...

www.christianityboard.com

[

I was referring to Matthew 25:31-46.

Christianity is concerned with the salvation of an individual soul - not collective. Very important to discern consequences of sin may be collective, does not meant it always is. In the Lake of Fire will go one damned person at a time, not collective damnation.

Collective consequences for sin. Individual damnation. Not the same thing.

 

[quietthinker]

God is in control and invites us to life with him where he rules without rebellion.

Like so many other posts of yours, this one is disturbing. You take a divine requirement of God regarding our responsibility to share life with God and blaspheme him, perhaps projecting him being in control with others sinful coveting of that power.

Men looove to tell others what they should do. It makes them feel authoritative. They will use any pretext to achieve that end.....particularly that of using scripture to underpin and judge others.

When a joke is told and all laugh, the one telling the joke gets glory (in their own heads)......so, the emphasis on 'should' and tut tut tut, you're not believing it right, brings the focus back to King Self without missing a beat ie, the awareness that something is misplaced.