What is the basis for the unbeliever's condemnation?

[St. SteVen]

God's justice is deliverance. Man's justice is payback, to put it roughly.

Exactly!
Revenge is a sin. And not just for humans!

Jesus said we are to love our enemies. What should he do with his?

[

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

All means All Bruce. Believers are the ones who take advantage. Unbelievers refuse what has been done for them and given to them.

God's justice is deliverance. Man's justice is payback, to put it roughly.

Paul went to the Gentile communities announcing Salvation IN Jesus. It was good news for the alienated.....and the 'alienated' were all Gentiles and those deemed 'sinners' by those who considered themselves privileged.

Unbelief in God's gob smacking generosity is the great sin which alienates men from God rather than God from men

It was 'while we were yet sinners that Christ died for the ungodly' ie, unbelievers in the goodness, generosity and kindness of the greatest lover in Eternity. It totally nullifies Satans claim that God needs and requires appeasing in some form.

When you say "All means all," are you saying that every single human being will be justified (declared "not-guilty") by our divine Judge? Thus, do you believe that ALL people will be saved in the end? As a result, do you believe that God is NOT a God of real justice? I'm just curious. I agree with the rest of your statements.

 

[Johann]

I must admit I chuckled when I saw this answer. No, not Universalism. Far from it

Why don't you ask @St. SteVen @KUWN?

Exactly!
Revenge is a sin. And not just for humans!

Jesus said we are to love our enemies. What should he do with his?

[

Forgetting to put on the panoplia of YHVH-for a reason, and no, I don't love Satan and his cohorts-but for you, to be consistent in what you believe -you are to love Satan

Eph 6:10 For the rest, be continually empowered in the ko'ach of Hashem and in the oz of His gevurah. [TEHILLIM 27:14]
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of Hashem for you to be able to stand against the nechalim (scheming deceitfulness, wiles, evil plots) of Hasatan.
Eph 6:12 Because we are not wrestling against basar vadahm (flesh and blood), but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of the choshech of the Olam Hazeh, against the kokhot ruchaniyim ra'im (evil spiritual forces) in Shomayim.
Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the whole armor of Hashem, that you may be able to withstand in the Yom HaRah and, having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand, therefore, having girded your waist with HaEmes and having put on the breastplate of Tzedek, [YESHAYAH 11:5; TEHILLIM 132:9; YESHAYAH 59:17]
Eph 6:15 And having put as shoes on your feet that which makes you ready to be a maggid of the Besuras HaGeulah. [YESHAYAH 52:7]
Eph 6:16 With all these things, take up the shield of emunah, by which you will be able to quench all the flaming darts of haRah (the Evil one);
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of yeshu'ah and the cherev of the Ruach Hakodesh, which is the Dvar Hashem. [YESHAYAH 59:17; 49:2]
Eph 6:18 Daven in the Ruach Hakodesh always with all tefillos and techinnah (supplication). To that end keep shomer and always persevere in techinnah (supplication) for the Kadoshim;
Eph 6:19 And for me also, that to me may be given utterance in opening my mouth in boldness to make known the Sod HaBesuras HaGeulah,
Eph 6:20 On behalf of which I am an emissary in chains, that in it I may be bold as it is necessary for me to speak.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Why don't you ask @St. SteVen @KUWN?

Forgetting to put on the panoplia of YHVH-for a reason, and no, I don't love Satan and his cohorts-but for you, to be consistent in what you believe -you are to love Satan

Eph 6:10 For the rest, be continually empowered in the ko'ach of Hashem and in the oz of His gevurah. [TEHILLIM 27:14]
Eph 6:11 Put on the whole armor of Hashem for you to be able to stand against the nechalim (scheming deceitfulness, wiles, evil plots) of Hasatan.
Eph 6:12 Because we are not wrestling against basar vadahm (flesh and blood), but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of the choshech of the Olam Hazeh, against the kokhot ruchaniyim ra'im (evil spiritual forces) in Shomayim.
Eph 6:13 Therefore, take up the whole armor of Hashem, that you may be able to withstand in the Yom HaRah and, having done all, to stand.
Eph 6:14 Stand, therefore, having girded your waist with HaEmes and having put on the breastplate of Tzedek, [YESHAYAH 11:5; TEHILLIM 132:9; YESHAYAH 59:17]
Eph 6:15 And having put as shoes on your feet that which makes you ready to be a maggid of the Besuras HaGeulah. [YESHAYAH 52:7]
Eph 6:16 With all these things, take up the shield of emunah, by which you will be able to quench all the flaming darts of haRah (the Evil one);
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of yeshu'ah and the cherev of the Ruach Hakodesh, which is the Dvar Hashem. [YESHAYAH 59:17; 49:2]
Eph 6:18 Daven in the Ruach Hakodesh always with all tefillos and techinnah (supplication). To that end keep shomer and always persevere in techinnah (supplication) for the Kadoshim;
Eph 6:19 And for me also, that to me may be given utterance in opening my mouth in boldness to make known the Sod HaBesuras HaGeulah,
Eph 6:20 On behalf of which I am an emissary in chains, that in it I may be bold as it is necessary for me to speak.

What translation are you using? It seems to have Hebrew words, even though the New Testament was written in Greek. Why don't you use a good English translation like the English Standard Version that would communicate to most people a little better? Just a suggestion.

Also, please explain to me how I would have to love Satan (which I don't at all) to be consistent in my beliefs. I'm curious; after all, I'm a curious writer.

 

[Johann]

What translation are you using? It seems to have Hebrew words, even though the New Testament was written in Greek. Why don't you use a good English translation like the English Standard Version that would communicate to most people a little better? Just a suggestion.

Also, please explain to me how I would have to love Satan (which I don't at all) to be consistent in my beliefs. I'm curious; after all, I'm a curious writer.

Once again, brother @Bruce-Leiter, my message wasn’t directed at you but at @St. SteVen, who holds universalist beliefs. For him to truly love his "enemies," he’d have to include even Ha-Satan and demons in that love to stay consistent with his views.

What a day it’s been!

J.

 

[St. SteVen]

Forgetting to put on the panoplia of YHVH-for a reason, and no, I don't love Satan and his cohorts-but for you, to be consistent in what you believe -you are to love Satan

Hatred is not a manifestation of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Not sure how you can justify it.

[

 

[face2face]

It totally nullifies Satans claim that God needs and requires appeasing in some form.

Where?

 

[quietthinker]

When you say "All means all," are you saying that every single human being will be justified (declared "not-guilty") by our divine Judge? Thus, do you believe that ALL people will be saved in the end? As a result, do you believe that God is NOT a God of real justice? I'm just curious. I agree with the rest of your statements.

Consider it like this Bruce as an example, a man enslaved and familiar with his surroundings is set free by the higher authorities but he hasn't heard of it. The message of his freedom hasn't reached him yet....but soon it will, when it does he is in a position to make choices. Will he leave the familiar for the unknown? Now he'll need to be responsible for himself, sourcing accomodation, earning money to sustain him etc etc. What will he choose? Will he stay as a slave in relative security or will he cast off his bonds and live as a free man. Either way, his liberation as far as the authorities are concerned is a given.

In like manner, All have been justified ie liberated, they just don't know it. We have the commission to bring the enslaved (humanity) this good news. We are to share the same news the angels brought the Shepherds on Bethlehem's hills, ....
Luke 2:9-11
'An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified. 10But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid. I bring you good news that will cause great joy for all the people. 11Today in the town of David a Savior has been born to you; he is the Messiah, the Lord.

Justification (God's liberation) does not mean all people will want it. Most prefer slavery....to fit in with their peers.

It is in our interest to understand the intent of the language used in Scripture.....why? because Satan insures it is easy to misunderstand.

 

[face2face]

Hatred is not a manifestation of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Not sure how you can justify it.

[

Could the same be said of Justice, Wrath and Judgement?...but all these will be manifested!

Christ the Lamb overturned money tables in his righteous indignation - what will the Lion of the Tribe of Judah do?

You understand St.?

 

[face2face]

because Satan insures it is easy to misunderstand.

Again, where is this said?

 

[Johann]

Hatred is not a manifestation of the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
Not sure how you can justify it.

[

Because I don't love Satan and his cohorts?!

1 Timothy 6:3-5
"If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing... From such withdraw yourself."

2 Timothy 4:3-4
"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables."

Romans 16:17
"Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them."

Titus 1:9-11
"...holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict. For there are many insubordinate, both idle talkers and deceivers... whose mouths must be stopped."

Galatians 1:8-9
"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

2 John 1:10
"If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him."

Ephesians 4:14
"That we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting."

2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies..."

Colossians 2:8
"Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ."

1 John 4:1
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

These scriptures emphasize the importance of staying true to sound doctrine and avoiding teachings that contradict the gospel of Christ.

I just realized your posts are on the Unorthodox Doctrine Forum-so I don't have to reply to you.

@GRACE ambassador did an excellent job.

J.

 

[quietthinker]

Where?

All the religions are based on appeasement in some form. Either sacrifices (blood or otherwise) or good works. Even the Hebrew sanctuary service was interpreted that way. In fact it is so endemic that it is assumed that the more blood offered the happier God(s) will be. We can read the accounts of Solomon offering thousands of animals at the dedication of the Temple.
Where does this assumption that God requires appeasing originate? .... from the Prince of Darkness of course. He misrepresented the Character of God to A&E at the outset and he continues to do so.

 

[quietthinker]

Again, where is this said?

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

 

[face2face]

Revelation 12:9
The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

This is speaking to the dragon power (symbolic) which led the then known world astray. If you think this is a single being you are mistaken.

It's dangerous practice to quote a section from the apocalypse if you don't understand its message.

I was hoping for you to not take me to the end of the book ;)

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

This is speaking to the dragon power (symbolic) which led the then known world astray. If you think this is a single being you are mistaken.

It's dangerous practice to quote a section from the apocalypse if you don't understand its message.

I was hoping for you to not take me to the end of the book ;)

F2F

I guess you hope I will do lots of things f2f....sorry to disappoint you.
The text is specific....'his angels with him'

 

[face2face]

I guess you hope I will do lots of things f2f....sorry to disappoint you.
The text is specific....'his angels with him'

You tried, thats something.
Prophetically angels means messengers so in this instance the dragon power (political) in the earth had support.

No need to unpack all this now as there are keys of knowledge required to unlock the Revelation and if you don't have them or don't want them they are lost.

F2F

 

[face2face]

All the religions are based on appeasement in some form. Either sacrifices (blood or otherwise) or good works. Even the Hebrew sanctuary service was interpreted that way.

Correct

In fact it is so endemic that it is assumed that the more blood offered the happier God(s) will be.

Terrible it was, agree

We can read the accounts of Solomon offering thousands of animals at the dedication of the Temple.

Yep

Where does this assumption that God requires appeasing originate?

From the Law and His Commandments

“And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 10:19

Note what is required and the order?

Can you see anything significant?

.... from the Prince of Darkness of course. He misrepresented the Character of God to A&E at the outset and he continues to do so.

The Prince of Darkness is symbolic language for the Religious Elite of the day and not some fiery being lol (if in fact that is what you were inferring).

Bible language is tough to decipher at times.

F2F

 

[quietthinker]

You tried, thats something.
Prophetically angels means messengers so in this instance the dragon power (political) in the earth had support.

No need to unpack all this now as there are keys of knowledge required to unlock the Revelation and if you don't have them or don't want them they are lost.

F2F

I think you live in your imaginary world f2f.
You ask me for a scripture as if the scripture is definitive re an answer, then when it is given you twist it to support whatever you imagine.....then you pretend you have the knowledge to unlock Revelation and make the judgement that if one doesn't have it (as you see it) they are lost.

Unfortunately your approach has all the hallmarks of delusion.

 

[face2face]

I think you live in your imaginary world f2f.
You ask me for a scripture as if the scripture is definitive re an answer, then when it is given you twist it to support whatever you imagine.....then you pretend you have the knowledge to unlock Revelation and make the judgement that if one doesn't have it (as you see it) they are lost.

Unfortunately your approach has all the hallmarks of delusion.

I can see how you would think that quiet. The truth is you took me to the end of the book to prove what? Do you know what Revelation 12 is all about? Whether it been fulfilled or is it still future? Who are the players involved?

You are either entirely right or entirely wrong.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@quietthinker

“And now, Israel, what does the LORD your God require of you, but to fear the LORD your God, to walk in all his ways, to love him, to serve the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, Deut 10:19

Note what is required and the order?

Can you see anything significant?

You should have a go at unpacking this quiet, I think you would benefit from its wisdom

F2F