What is the initial evidence of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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So, if we don't speak with tongues, we don't speak with the spirit to God, but only with the carnal mind.
St. SteVen said:
That's good. Chapter 14 also says this.
1 Corinthians 14:2 NIV
For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. ...
It is a glorious thing to surrender our tongue to the Spirit. (battery charger mode) - LOL
Prophecy and the "interpretation" of tongues are in our own language but certainly a manifestation of the Spirit.
And hopefully the Spirit of God is always engaged with our mind and what we speak. We yield our most unruly member.
Not to mention taking every thought captive to make it obedient to Christ.
[
That's good. Chapter 14 also says this.
1 Corinthians 14:2 NIV
For anyone who speaks in a tongue[a] does not speak to people but to God. ...
I wouldn't go that far with it.
It is a glorious thing to surrender our tongue to the Spirit. (battery charger mode) - LOL
Prophecy and the "interpretation" of tongues are in our own language but certainly a manifestation of the Spirit.
And hopefully the Spirit of God is always engaged with our mind and what we speak. We yield our most unruly member.
Not to mention taking every thought captive to make it obedient to Christ.
[
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
According to Acts 2:4-11, tongues are supposed to be real-life foreign
languages
"How hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"
The reason given for that is because it enables missionaries to share the
word of God with people in other lands.
"We do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."
Paul explained in 1Cor 14:20 that Christians infatuated with tongues for
tongues' sake are immature and need to grow up.
"Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your
thinking be adults."
_
According to Acts 2:4-11, tongues are supposed to be real-life foreign
languages
"How hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"
The reason given for that is because it enables missionaries to share the
word of God with people in other lands.
"We do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."
Paul explained in 1Cor 14:20 that Christians infatuated with tongues for
tongues' sake are immature and need to grow up.
"Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your
thinking be adults."
_
Ok....
What is REALLY important is discerning the maturity of various Christians is it not?
And the answer is in 1John. In this letter John writes to children/little ones, adolescents/young men, and Father's.
He describes each one perfectly....but he is not speaking about chronological age but spiritual maturity age.
Hard lesson to learn.
People don't like this lesson taught by John. It isn't often covered in pulpits or by small groups.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Honestly I think you are quite wrong on this...
We are all well aware of the verses -
Firstly at pentecost when the Spirit Baptised them in Himself they were individually given the ability to praise and worship in another language which was recognised by different pilgrims as their native tongue. This was primarily a sign to the Jews confirming God was at work. To many hearers it sounded like nonsense so they mocked and suggested drunkenness.
Then Peters message - He explained what was happening either in Hebrew, or Greek which was the common trade language of the time and understood right across the known world.
So no... Peter was not speaking in tongues as he preached.
Just think it through - If Peter was speaking in tongues as he preached he would need to utter the same message in multiple languages consecutively - and there were many.
The sign had already been given and the Word was preached in common language understood by all.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Really - this is nonsense...
Do you think Paul did all his preaching and teaching in tongues ???
Behold
Well-Known Member
Peter didnt praise and worship.
He told the Jews.. (Using the gift of Tongues).........>"you have slain your Messiah"....
So, Does that sound like "praise and worship" to you @Carl Emerson
And the Jews said...>>"what must we do"..........and Peter Said....>>"Repent and be baptized"...
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
They were all in worship when the fire of the Spirit fell including Peter.
He did not speak in multiple languages, or need to, as the common Greek trade language was understood by all.
The error of your teaching is that you have assumed that all the disciples gathered under the power of the spirit were individually uttering multiple languages. But Scripture records travellers heard praise and worship in their own langauges heard by others as a babble. Individually the diciples utterred a language of a hearer.
So to claim that Peter and the other apostles from then preached and taught in tongues is absurd.
I wonder if you have taken this position to discredit tongues today unless they are expressly delivered to the hearer of the language given.
Love does not insist on its own.
How about you submit your theories to the assembled believers rather than assuming the role of being our teacher.
Lets be in submission one to another...
I love it when non-tongue-speakers try to tell tongue-speakers how it should be done. Say what?
And then insults them in the process inferring that THEY are immature. - LOL
1 Corinthians14:18 NIV
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
[
Behold
Well-Known Member
They did not understand Peter, exactly as those in the upper room, naturally understood Peter.
Peter was WITH those in the Upper Room.. so, they all spoke the same Language..
That means that when those who were amazed and heard those in speaking with tongues, in their Language, .... they are saying that the upper room normal language, spoken by the all... would not have been understood.
Like this..
How can these who dont speak our language.......now speak our language and PETER's Language was the same as those he was with in the upper room, as they were all TOGETHER.... "of one accord" the verse says.
Notice this specifically...
"""And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans"????
Now.. where did Peter fish?
Where did Jesus find Peter?
"Sea of Galilee".
Peter was a Galilaen., which means He had to have the same GIFT, that those Galilaeans who were "speaking"......in Tongues, or the same who understood them... would not have understood Peter.
Carl Emerson
Well-Known Member
Right - I get it...
You are teaching me in tongues right now...
What is you native language as a matter of interest ?
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
Mozart composed some amazing music; but had he not arranged the
components sensibly, it would likely grate on people's nerves instead of
entertaining them; sort of like when an orchestra verifies the pitch of its
instruments just prior to a performance. The discordant din that the
orchestra makes is a cacophony instead of a rhapsody.
● 1Cor 14:7 . . Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as
the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless
there is a distinction in the notes?
Modern tonguers typically don't compose anything pleasant to the ear. At
least if they would chirp like birds their speech would be a discernible song
instead of an unintelligible squawk.
I was informed by a Charismatic friend that he prayed in a tongue because
he couldn't express his deepest feelings any other way. Mind you this was an
American adult of almost fifty years old; educated in America and spoke,
wrote, and read English-- his native language --his entire life. So I asked
him how it is that his command of English was so poor that he could only
express his thoughts in a language that not even he himself could either
identify or understand?
● 1Cor 14:14-15 . . If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is
unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray
with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.
In other words: there are Christians out and about blabbering incoherently
because they choose to, not because they have to. With just a simple act of
their own will they could easily switch to speaking with real words.
Why on earth would a grown-up prefer incoherent blabbering? Isn't that the
way small children communicate? Well, I can excuse small children because
they're uneducated. But shouldn't supposed educated adults be just a bit
more mature with their language and grammar than small children?
The true gift of tongues is very handy for communicating with foreigners.
But in our day and age, Charismatics typically don't communicate with
anybody, either foreign or domestic . As a result, Charismatics are looked
upon with the same disdain as the kooks that hurl themselves on the floor,
fainting, screaming, writhing, shouting, and dancing with rattlesnakes.
Well; not too many sensible people care to accommodate kooks, so if you're
serious about influencing people for Christ, I highly recommend sticking to
an intelligible language. Here in my country, English is a good choice
because most people can understand it without requiring the services of a
translator.
And for heaven's sake, please do not allow yourself to be drawn to
participating in a tongues meeting.
● 1Cor 14:23 . . So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks
in tongues, and some who do not understand, or some unbelievers come in,
will they not say that you are out of your mind?
_
Mozart composed some amazing music; but had he not arranged the
components sensibly, it would likely grate on people's nerves instead of
entertaining them; sort of like when an orchestra verifies the pitch of its
instruments just prior to a performance. The discordant din that the
orchestra makes is a cacophony instead of a rhapsody.
● 1Cor 14:7 . . Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as
the flute or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless
there is a distinction in the notes?
Modern tonguers typically don't compose anything pleasant to the ear. At
least if they would chirp like birds their speech would be a discernible song
instead of an unintelligible squawk.
I was informed by a Charismatic friend that he prayed in a tongue because
he couldn't express his deepest feelings any other way. Mind you this was an
American adult of almost fifty years old; educated in America and spoke,
wrote, and read English-- his native language --his entire life. So I asked
him how it is that his command of English was so poor that he could only
express his thoughts in a language that not even he himself could either
identify or understand?
● 1Cor 14:14-15 . . If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is
unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray
with my mind; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.
In other words: there are Christians out and about blabbering incoherently
because they choose to, not because they have to. With just a simple act of
their own will they could easily switch to speaking with real words.
Why on earth would a grown-up prefer incoherent blabbering? Isn't that the
way small children communicate? Well, I can excuse small children because
they're uneducated. But shouldn't supposed educated adults be just a bit
more mature with their language and grammar than small children?
The true gift of tongues is very handy for communicating with foreigners.
But in our day and age, Charismatics typically don't communicate with
anybody, either foreign or domestic . As a result, Charismatics are looked
upon with the same disdain as the kooks that hurl themselves on the floor,
fainting, screaming, writhing, shouting, and dancing with rattlesnakes.
Well; not too many sensible people care to accommodate kooks, so if you're
serious about influencing people for Christ, I highly recommend sticking to
an intelligible language. Here in my country, English is a good choice
because most people can understand it without requiring the services of a
translator.
And for heaven's sake, please do not allow yourself to be drawn to
participating in a tongues meeting.
● 1Cor 14:23 . . So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks
in tongues, and some who do not understand, or some unbelievers come in,
will they not say that you are out of your mind?
_
I think there is reasonable evidence to conclude that Pentecost did not happen in the upper room.
[
Ritajanice
Born-Again
Short commentary for you.
Most Christians assume that it took place in the upper room where the disciples had been staying. However, a closer look at the Text and some research into the historical setting of the Feast of Pentecost provides strong proof that the events of Pentecost actually took place in an entirely different location
Where did Pentecost happen in the Bible?
It commemorates the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Apostles and other followers of Jesus Christ while they were in Jerusalemcelebrating the Feast of Weeks.
Thanks.
I had concluded that they were in the Temple Courts when the outpouring took place.
But I am open to further discussion on the matter.
This is a place where those that witnessed the outpouring would have naturally been.
Acts 2:46 NIV
Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts.
They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts,
Acts 2:5-6 NIV
Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment,
because each one heard their own language being spoken.
[
Behold
Well-Known Member
Pentecost.. (Shavuot) <>(שָׁבוּעוֹת).......is a Jewish thanksgiving.. (essentially.)
So, it happens, not in a building, but on a Day..
The reason that The Bible explains that its the upper room, is because that is where the Apostles had been staying... prior.
Let me show you what it looks like...
-
Explain the logistics.
How did all the "God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven"
witness this outpouring and come together as a crowd?
[
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
The thing is I don't know what the AOG or Jimmy Swaggart doctrines are about the gifts of the Spirit. I wasn't raised Pentecostal. All I know about tongues I learned directly from God. I would ask questions in prayer and most of the time, early in the morning as I was waking up the answer would enter my mind. When I was having trouble understanding how the 3,000 Jews understood the tongues as if they were hearing there own languages, the next morning as I was waking up I heard "interpretation." And with it that this was supernatural hearing by God and the gift of interpretation of tongues. It was further proved to be supernatural because this was not the norm. The 3,000 Jews were not Christians yet. But then it happened at the church I was attending. A teenager understood the tongues being prayed over her. Later she told them she only heard English, but tongues were all that was spoken which if it had been English that was odd as they all spoke English and they were praying in tongues. This was special, but fully permissible as the gifts belong to the Holy Spirit to do with as He wishes. But on the other hand we do have rules such as 1 Cor. 14:2 that explains that tongues are not for the purpose of preaching to foreigners as I've been told some Pentecostals believe. I don't believe that. I believe the two types of tongues from Mark 16 and 1 Cor. 12 are first for our individual private prayer life TO GOD, and receiving messages FROM GOD, from 1 Cor. 12 and 14:6 to the church.
Another thing I learned from God was that the first sign that happens when born again of the Spirit is what happened to me - not some doctrine from Pentecostals that it is tongues. What happened to me was a heaviness lifted out of me physically and with it all desire to commit a sin unto death, which are breaking one of the sins of the flesh, Galatians 5:19-21, or a commandment.
I except your testimony. I will not limit the Holy Spirit of God.
But what is your understanding of the manifestation gift of the interpretation of tongues if God is doing it in the ears of the hearers?
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