Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[WPM]

Revelation 20:1-3 does not address salvation. Instead, John discusses warfare, specifically the conflict waged against Israel, as indicated by the comparison between verses 3 and 8.

@Scott Downey

Not true. Where is Israel mentioned here?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Hello! IT IS NOT IN THE TEXT! Good enough!

Doctrine is not derived from two verses alone. Revelation 20 clearly states that Satan is bound for a thousand years. The purpose of his imprisonment is extrapolated from his behavior after he is released and passages such as Luke chapter one.

Luke 1:68-75
Blessed be the Lord God of Israel,
For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,
And has raised up a horn of salvation for us
In the house of David His servant—
As He spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from of old—
Salvation from our enemies,
And from the hand of all who hate us;
To show mercy toward our fathers,
And to remember His holy covenant,
The oath which He swore to Abraham our father,
To grant us that we, being rescued from the hand of our enemies,
Might serve Him without fear,
In holiness and righteousness before Him all our days.

The bold passage will be fulfilled during the Millennium.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not true. Where is Israel mentioned here?

First, John mentions that thrones will be set up. (Revelation 20:4) This refers to Jesus' promise to his twelve apostles that they would be sitting on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:30) Second, when Satan is released, he motivates the nations to attack the city of the saints, but fire will come down from heaven to destroy them. (Revelation 20:9) The holy City is Jerusalem. (Revelation 11:2)

 

[WPM]

First, John mentions that thrones will be set up. (Revelation 20:4) This refers to Jesus' promise to his twelve apostles that they would be sitting on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:30) Second, when Satan is released, he motivates the nations to attack the city of the saints, but fire will come down from heaven to destroy them. (Revelation 20:9) The holy City is Jerusalem. (Revelation 11:2)

You force so much of what you have been taught into that text. It is all false teaching. It is extra-biblical. It is not in Revelation 20. It never will be!

 

[CadyandZoe]

You force so much of what you have been taught into that text. It is all false teaching. It is extra-biblical. It is not in Revelation 20. It never will be!

What is forced?

 

[WPM]

What is forced?

Read your posts.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yet you can't seem to give reasons for your objections. I get that we disagree, but the fact that you can't seem to explain why you disagree is a bit unsatisfying.

"I get that we disagree, but the fact that you can't seem to explain why you disagree is a bit unsatisfying."

Made me laugh.
Hope all is well with you and zoe

 

[CadyandZoe]

"I get that we disagree, but the fact that you can't seem to explain why you disagree is a bit unsatisfying."

Made me laugh.
Hope all is well with you and zoe

Thanks. Yes, all is well. We will be having Thanksgiving in a few days.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

First, John mentions that thrones will be set up. (Revelation 20:4) This refers to Jesus' promise to his twelve apostles that they would be sitting on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Luke 22:30)

Where does it says that this judging of the twelve tribes of Israel would go on for a long time, such as a thousand years? The judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46. Do you think that's an event that will go on for a thousand years?

Second, when Satan is released, he motivates the nations to attack the city of the saints, but fire will come down from heaven to destroy them. (Revelation 20:9) The holy City is Jerusalem. (Revelation 11:2)

The book of Revelation itself says the holy city is new Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And the new Jerusalem is "the bride, the Lamb's wife", which is the church (Ephesians 5:22-31).

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

So, Revelation 20:7-9 has to do with global persecution against the church before Christ's return. It talks about a number of people "as the sand of the sea" opposing the camp of the saints, which is the church. It can't be earthly Jerusalem because it's not even reasonable to think that a number "as the sand of the sea" would somehow all travel to Jerusalem to attack the earthly city of Jerusalem.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Where does it says that this judging of the twelve tribes of Israel would go on for a long time, such as a thousand years? The judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46. Do you think that's an event that will go on for a thousand years?

The word "judge," in this instance, is synonymous with "rule." Jesus tells his apostles that they will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel.

The book of Revelation itself says the holy city is new Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem.

The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and will be located on earth.

And the new Jerusalem is "the bride, the Lamb's wife", which is the church (Ephesians 5:22-31).

You are confusing two metaphors. Paul exhorts husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church. But Paul doesn't refer to the church as the Bride of Christ. John identifies the bride in terms of the Jewish people, i.e. the twelve tribes. (Rev. 21:12) And the gates of the city are named after the Apostles who rule over the twelve tribes. (Rev 21:14)

So, Revelation 20:7-9 has to do with global persecution against the church before Christ's return. It talks about a number of people "as the sand of the sea" opposing the camp of the saints, which is the church. It can't be earthly Jerusalem because it's not even reasonable to think that a number "as the sand of the sea" would somehow all travel to Jerusalem to attack the earthly city of Jerusalem.

I disagree with your interpretation for the fact that before Satan and his followers can attack the saints, they are all burned up. Satan cannot get near the city before his armies are destroyed.

 

[WPM]

Where does it says that this judging of the twelve tribes of Israel would go on for a long time, such as a thousand years? The judgment is described in Matthew 25:31-46. Do you think that's an event that will go on for a thousand years?


The book of Revelation itself says the holy city is new Jerusalem, not earthly Jerusalem.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And the new Jerusalem is "the bride, the Lamb's wife", which is the church (Ephesians 5:22-31).

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

So, Revelation 20:7-9 has to do with global persecution against the church before Christ's return. It talks about a number of people "as the sand of the sea" opposing the camp of the saints, which is the church. It can't be earthly Jerusalem because it's not even reasonable to think that a number "as the sand of the sea" would somehow all travel to Jerusalem to attack the earthly city of Jerusalem.

Welcome back!!! Have missed you bro!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Welcome back!!! Have missed you bro!

Thanks, bro! It seemed like I was gone longer than a month. I've been following the discussions on here and there's been a few times where I would have loved to be able to respond, but couldn't.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The word "judge," in this instance, is synonymous with "rule." Jesus tells his apostles that they will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel.

How did you come to that conclusion? I see no basis for that.

The New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven and will be located on earth.

It will be located on the new earth but we are part of the heavenly Jerusalem even now (see Hebrews 12:22). The New Jerusalem is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9). Christ has no other bride besides the church. The souls of the dead in Christ are part of New Jerusalem and so are those who belong to Christ and are on earth now. Eventually, we will all reside on the new earth.

You are confusing two metaphors.

No, I'm not. Christ has only one bride. And it's the church. Therefore, New Jerusalem is a symbolic representation of the church. Surely, "the bride, the Lamb's wife" is not a literal city. We are part of the heavenly new Jerusalem even now spiritually.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Paul exhorts husbands to love their wives as Christ loves the church. But Paul doesn't refer to the church as the Bride of Christ. John identifies the bride in terms of the Jewish people, i.e. the twelve tribes. (Rev. 21:12) And the gates of the city are named after the Apostles who rule over the twelve tribes. (Rev 21:14)

Nope. The church is most certainly the bride of Christ. He has no other bride besides the church.

Ephesians 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

Both Jew and Gentile believers are brought together as one body by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:11-22). Paul spoke of a husband and wife in direct relation to Christ and the church. So, he definitely was saying that the church is the bride of Christ. That is obvious and you still miss it. Your attempts to divide what Jesus has brought together will fail every time.

You said "the gates of the city are named after the Apostles who rule over the twelve tribes. (Rev 21:14)". Are you somehow not aware that the church is founded upon the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22)?

I disagree with your interpretation for the fact that before Satan and his followers can attack the saints, they are all burned up. Satan cannot get near the city before his armies are destroyed.

Where does it say that? Same place that it talks about Jesus reigning on the earth?

 

[WPM]

Thanks, bro! It seemed like I was gone longer than a month. I've been following the discussions on here and there's been a few times where I would have loved to be able to respond, but couldn't.

I know. Not fair.

 

[CadyandZoe]

How did you come to that conclusion? I see no basis for that.

In Revelation 20, thrones are associated with the activity of judging, which indicates a group of people who will rule and govern. In the Bible, the term "judge" often refers to someone who is appointed to rule over the people. For example, the book of Judges illustrates this role. In the context of Revelation 20, thrones are established for individuals like Peter and the other apostles who have been resurrected to rule with Christ for a thousand years. Matthew 15:27-29

It will be located on the new earth . . .

That's right. The "New Earth" will see a restoration of the current planet. Jesus tells his apostles that they will rule over the twelve tribes during the time of the restoration.

but we are part of the heavenly Jerusalem even now (see Hebrews 12:22).

Paul argues that we have "come" to the heavenly Jerusalem, meaning that through Jesus Christ, we have come to the Jerusalem that God is building.

The New Jerusalem is "the bride, the Lamb's wife" (Rev 21:9). Christ has no other bride besides the church.

The New Jerusalem is a physical place where Jesus rules over his followers. It is both a city and a people. During the millennial period, Jesus will also meet with the nations in this place.

Both Jew and Gentile believers are brought together as one body by the blood of Christ (Ephesians 2:11-22).

True. But he doesn't refer to the church as the bride.

Paul spoke of a husband and wife in direct relation to Christ and the church. So, he definitely was saying that the church is the bride of Christ.

In contrast, the analogy is between husband and wife, not husband and bride as you suggested. The church is currently the body of Christ. However the "bride" metaphor suggests a future relationship, not currently a reality.

That is obvious and you still miss it.

If it was obvious, it would be clearly and explicitly stated.

Your attempts to divide what Jesus has brought together will fail every time.

We are discussing figurative language. No attempt is being made to divide what Jesus brought together. I simply take issue with your presupposition that the kingdom is only a spiritual condition in the hearts of believers.

You said "the gates of the city are named after the Apostles who rule over the twelve tribes. (Rev 21:14)". Are you somehow not aware that the church is founded upon the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ as its cornerstone (Ephesians 2:19-22)?

Other than your assumption that John's vision is meant to indicate the spiritual condition of the church of Christ, what specific wording of the passage indicates a "spiritual" church, rather than a physical circumstance? You and I certainly agree that one gains "entrance" into the church through the apostles and prophets, i.e. through their teaching and witness. But in this context, why does John indicate that the unrighteous will not be able to enter through the gates? Is it true that the unrighteous are not able to enter the church if they repent?

The New Jerusalem is not symbolic of the church; it is a physical city where only the righteous are allowed to enter.

Where does it say that? Same place that it talks about Jesus reigning on the earth?

John describes in vivid detail what happens when Satan is released. He goes out into the world, proposing to bring the nations against the camp of the Saints. And while the nations were camped around the city, fire came down from heaven and devoured them. No actual fighting takes place, the battle is preempted by the destruction of the opposition.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Not true. Where is Israel mentioned here?

Israel is implied. The Bible often contrasts Israel with the other nations located at the four corners of the earth.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks, bro! It seemed like I was gone longer than a month. I've been following the discussions on here and there's been a few times where I would have loved to be able to respond, but couldn't.

@WPM
I appreciate the both of you. I am not feeling well at the moment and our fellowship together is helping me pass the time. I hope you both have a wonderful Thanksgiving with family and friends.

 

[MA2444]

What is forced?

That was code talk for hmm good answer I dunno what to say!

 

[WPM]

@WPM
I appreciate the both of you. I am not feeling well at the moment and our fellowship together is helping me pass the time. I hope you both have a wonderful Thanksgiving with family and friends.

Happy Thanksgiving

 

[WPM]

Israel is implied. The Bible often contrasts Israel with the other nations located at the four corners of the earth.

"Implied" is theological speak for "it is not there!"