14 IRRESOLVABLE CONTRADICTIONS WHICH RESULT FROM A LITERAL RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

[Phoneman777]

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I believe the parable may be alluding to the ultimate judgment and destination of the soul, one to be punished and the other to his reward and compensation for his suffering in this life. Both are presumed to be God's people but one is a picture of being judged in this life so that he will not be judged with the world, and the other who belonged to God but was not doing His will at all, but living selfishly for himself, did not end up where he assumed he would. Because of God's promises under the Law, many Jews assumed that being personally blessed with material blessings in this life was a sign of God's approval....while the poor were often looked down upon and not helped or shown mercy because of an assumption that they were poor and cursed and being punished by God because of personal failings. Jesus speaking to the Jews was warning and correcting that merciless attitude with His parable. "To the Jew first, then the Gentile".......so the church also needs to take warning from it.

There's too many specific details that eliminate such a broad interpretation, such as "Father Abraham" and Abraham calling the lost Rich Man "son".

The parables of Jesus can be divided into two classifications:

1) teachings on the present and future kingdom of God
2) warning against impenitent Jews

The Rich Man and Lazarus is unmistakably among the "warning" parables for "Abraham's sons" - Jews.

 

[Phoneman777]

In college they gave us 300 examples of apparent biblical contradictions and errors and told us to solve them…harmonize them. He told us that when we were done we would be surprised how much we had learnt.

We each got around 20 to solve in the Old and New Testament. At first we thought to take them back to the actual scriptures, but what he had handed out was true to the scriptures

So we considered the context of the scriptures….what their purpose was….You take some of earliest scriptures that Moses was putting together….without benefit of communication, stories that most likely came forward as oral traditions. Stories about Adam and Eve are going to be vague and inconsistent….. Or in this case he provided two stories from different perspectives.

Christ and the Apostles were aware of an eternal fiery place of punishment……But there was no word for it in the Hebrew language or the Greek language. The Old Testament was completely unaware of an eternal fiery place of punishment. As it is the Jews today do not believe in an eternal fiery place of punishment or the Devil.

But some of the Jews in the New Testament believed in an eternal fiery place of punishment and the Devil. Why? That is a story in itself. And Christ and the Apostles knew there was an eternal fiery place of punishment and the Devil. But Christ and the Apostles did not have a word for this horrible place.

Christ used the illustration of Gehenna….a burning trash dump in a valley to represent the eternal fiery place of punishment. The closest thing to a place of punishment in the Greek was Hades, but Hades was a Greco-Roman god and he reigned over a place of punishment of the same name. But Hades was more of a prison than a place of punishment or torture ….no fire. But is was the closest thing they had, so they used it. So “Christian Greek” was born. The Greek language understandably did not have Christian theological words….so they would use the closest word and modify the meaning. The word sin is a good example of this. For the Romans….sin meant they missed their target….The Christians modified the meaning to mean a transgression against God.

In this era story telling was like us watching a show of great adventure and a good story teller would captivate large audiences. A lot of these stories had a meaning.

When Christ told stories they were called parables. When you read these parables do not expect them to be factual in every respect, it is more important to understand the meaning or the message. The story/parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man is a good example, there is a lot going on there that is not realistic, it is the message that count.

That does not mean that the scriptures are not accurate, but when it comes to stories/parable they are not intended to be accurate and these parables should not be counted as contradictions or errors in this respect. In other words the storyline may not be factual but the meaning is true.

Eventually this place of eternal fiery torment came to be called Hell…. The word "hell" comes from the Old English word hel, which was first used around 725 AD to refer to the underworld. Hel comes from the Proto-Germanic word xaljō or haljō, which means "concealed place" or "the underworld". The word has cognates in other Germanic languages, including Old Norse hel, Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Old High German hella, and Gothic halja.

Be that as it may, these 14 irresolvable contradictions stand as a rebuke the to the entire Christian world who has imbibed "the wine of Babylon" which taught the same old lies that have been since time immemorial:

"Thou shalt not SURELY die."
"Thou shalt be like God".

There's simply no room in Scripture to accommodate either of these lies, though many attempt to do so with the Rich Man and Lazarus parable - hence, the raison d'etre of this OP.

 

[Phoneman777]

so why are many now beleiving a lie and beleiving this lie came of GOD .
THEY will all perish on the DAY of the LORD .
so DO REMEMBER , ONE MUST BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST
and that all other fairy tales which try and omit THAT FACT , IS A LIE that cannot save anyone .
Avoid the finding common ground interfaith lie .

Because the work of the Protestant Reformation to undo over 1,000 years of papacy dragging "baptized paganism" into the church - such as Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment doctrine - was unfortunately cut short.

The Reformation fought hard for 3 centuries, but in the 19th century when papal persecution came screeching to a halt, Protestantism got lazy and complacent. The papacy began to recover from that massive 16th century blow and little by little began to undo much good that the Reformers accomplished. Today, "protestants" are no longer protesting, which is why they are ignorant of what the church used to teach about many things.

They are IGNORANT of Luther's words that the idea of an immortal soul is among the "endless monstrosities in the Roman (catholic) dunghill of decretals".

They are IGNORANT that Protestant Historicism - not Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism or Jesuit "Way Behind" Preterism - was the only game in town, for good reason.

They are IGNORANT of the distinction between the Moral Law and the Mosaic Law.

It is precisely Biblical IGNORANCE that so many not only support papal error, but defend it.

 

[Grailhunter]

Be that as it may, these 14 irresolvable contradictions stand as a rebuke the to the entire Christian world who has imbibed "the wine of Babylon" which taught the same old lies that have been since time immemorial:

"Thou shalt not SURELY die."
"Thou shalt be like God".

There's simply no room in Scripture to accommodate either of these lies, though many attempt to do so with the Rich Man and Lazarus parable - hence, the raison d'etre of this OP.

Well of course I do not agree with you, but just to play along, what is your solution?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

DISEMBODIED BODIES?

Souls, defined as the invisible person, with a mind, emotions, conscioisness and in the case of departed souls, the volition part is limited to only expressing fear and torment.
When you dream, you see bodies and possess a body - do you not? Dreams are not physical. Nightmares give us an idea of what this realm is like. In a dream, you believe you have a body and therefore experience the fear and torment until you wake up in a panick and sweating realizing it was 't real. The only difference in Hades is, it is real, you are conscious.

LYING EYES

As Abraham stated, there is a great chasm fixed, separating the two realms. The torment is partially the realization that you are being judged for your sins, being aware of all of them and so the guilt, shame and regret gnats at you continuously and you are given a glimpse of what you missed out on. In this particular case, Jesus allowed this Rich man to see and speak to Abraham and vice versa, for the purpose of teaching us. It is not likely that Abraham _ then in Paradise ( which was a separate part of Hades and since Christ's death has been relocated to heaven), communicates with anyone else in Hades. Christ would not inundate anyone with such a depressing task. So I would say it was just allowed this one time.
Since it is darkness and therfore has no light, nothing good is retained. It is a reality void of good.

THE DEAD DON'T HAVE EMOTIONS

Again, souls are conscious. If there is no torment, no feelings, why state torment and gnashing of teeth (anger, agony, pain expressed) in many scriptures if it does not exist?

THE DEAD DON'T PERFORM WORK

No, who said they did?

THE DEAD DON'T DEVISE ANYTHING

True.

THE DEAD DON'T PRAISE GOD

True, Hades is void of anything good. God gives us the ability to love, praise and worship while we are physically alive as He brings GRACE and LIGHT to us. There is no LIGHT in Hades.

THE DEAD ARE IN DARKNESS

Darkness is expressed physically and spiritually. In caverns within the crust or under the crust of the earth, it is dark ... unless you see volcanic lava rivers or lakes, which is likely in view of these spectators. The Rich man sees flames, feels or imagines the heat ( which again is in his disembodied mind - like in a dream) and since this literal dark cavern must be below the water aquifers, he can't quench his imagined thirst.

THE DEAD ARE IN SILENCE

Who says, likely they are screaming in torment. What do you think gnashing if teeth means? Grinding, cussing in a agonizing, angry and evil growl. You cannot express anything but evil, because no good is available to cling unto. Initially yes, you die, you are plunged into this realm and so like the Rich man you still remember goodness, mercy and may cry out for it, as he did mercy on his brothers - "I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment."
Jesus was telling the truth, describing a realm of the dead godless/ faithless souls!

THE DEAD ARE ASLEEP

When a living person in unconscious of the physical realm, it is described as being asleep. If He is in a coma - asleep. If he is dead, he is also unconscious of the physical world, LIGHT, LIFE, as the Rich Man was. But he was conscious of darkness.

Summary

Parables DO NOT include specific names of real people, like Abraham, nor his spiritual location. It is also clear that the Rich man and Lazarus are real souls!
Prior to Christ's death and resurrection, Sheol was divided into two locations, one for the faithful to God and the other for the unfaithful, wicked reprobates.

The Rich man's location is therefore real.

1. Why describe two separate and distinct locations that exist after death _ in detail _ to symbolize something else if they did not exist?
2. What moral truth would be gained from something or some place that was not real?

3. Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories!
4. The message to all is a stark warning. This Rich man died and went to a place of loneliness, fire and torment. This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor was he inconacious of his surroundings He was conscious! He asks for water, a drop, because when Lazarus was alive, he begged for scraps of food. Notice how the Rich man's pride is no longer with him - he is humbled. I don't know, if it is real humility or just an act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy, to receive more than a drop. When he realized there would be no relief for him, he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers ( who were also real people) to warn them of this place.
5. Abraham also made it clear that these two locations were separated by a gulf (chasm) that no one from either location could pass over!

6. The last line of the story points to another reality and parallel to this story, Jesus' death and resurrection.

7. This whole story alludes also to judgments throughout the Bible that speak of fire and torment that ultimately leads to destruction. There is no hope for that Rich man or anyone else who is cast there, no second chance, no Purgatory, no redemption. This is what death means without faith in God, which is the primary reason we have a Savior. But we must believe that He is our Savior.

 

[Taken]

Claiming that the Rich Man and Lazarus story was not real

Hope you are a making a statement, not an accusation, because I did not claim that.:-)

no more makes Jesus a liar than claiming Jotham's story was a parable makes him a liar.

I pretty much look at Trees being compared to men….as …Men sway back and forth on beliefs, sometimes are crooked, get diseases, reproduce their same kind of things from their own seeds and make sounds. Similitudes.

Jesus' "consciousness in death" symbolic imagery is used to make the point

Jesus’ Body IS Gods Heavenly Holy Body.
God PREPARED A Body FOR Jesus (Gods Word,) (for when He came INTO THIS World.)

that if the Jews ("Rich Man") don't get their act together, God will take the Great Commission from them and give it to the Gentiles ("Lazarus") via the church.

Get your Point…but remembering God “BLINDED” the Jews…SO…there would BE an option for the Gentiles to BECOME enlightened, included in the Offering of Salvation.
And God has already REVEALED…HOW and WHEN the Blindness regarding the Jews shall be LIFTED.

Where do you get the idea that a "soul" is "in" a body?

Scripture.

God bless you.
Glory to God,

Taken

 

[Taken]

You sure about that? I see a distinct lack of textual evidence for such a statement.

Yes. Everything that God created…still exists.
It is the “FORM”…shape, matter, that changes, and thus called as it is seen.

God “DESTROYS”….taking one thing He made….changing it….but yet it still exists.

The Earth…God created…meaning it did not exist, then did exist BY the POWER of Him speaking it into existence.
God called the EARTH…”DRY” Land.
God “DESTROYED” the Earth ….by making the “DRY LAND”….”WET LAND”….God “restored the wet land”, BY assuaging the water, that the Earth to once again be DRY LAND….That is a “RESTORATION”.

(same is a RESTORATION, that applies to the SOUL that God “gives” to every natural born body of mankind.) It is given to a manKIND of being…”VERY GOOD”….it becomes corrupt….and He has an Offering of an Order and Way for manKIND to TAKE His Offering and have his soul “restored” back to “very good.”

Terrestrial BODILY MORTAL ManKIND is FORMED from dust OF the Earth. And that BODY “shall” return to the “FORM” OF “dust OF the Earth”. (Not become non-existant … rather change FORM, that we no longer recognize as a man Kind of being.)

Meanwhile…thanks for your effort of “experts”, opinions, but I’ll stick with what I Know…

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Phoneman777]

many have forgotten or never knew
that ALL JUDGMENT has been given unto the SON and by HIS words they shall be judged .
JESUS came to save but many sure seem to want to omit the YE MUST BELEIVE IN HIM part , TO BE SAVED .
THEY TROD THE SON UNDER FOOT . woe unto any and unto all who do so and loved a lie of a huge broad road to GOD ,
for that broad sin accepting lie accepting path , ENDS in DESTRUCTION by the very CHRIST they DENIED . keep that in MIND .

catholicism teaches salvation comes through the priesthood - not the blood of Christ. We should work hard to reach as many of our catholic friends with the truth as we can.

 

[Marvelloustime]

As with all his parables they were true and used as an example .
What was the lesson to learn in the parable of the ten virgins .
The five wise , the five foolish .
THE WISE are ready and watching and the unwise are not
and that WHEN THE DOOR slameth shut , WHEN CHRIST cometh for the saints
ALL who were not ready , watching , BELIEVING JESUS , well ITS TOO LATE .
the warning is ITS TOO LATE . notice the five foolish NEVER GOT LET IT IN .
its a parable to summarize BE YE READY AND WATCHING for ye KNOW NOT the HOUR your LORD DO COME .

@amigo de christo

 

[Phoneman777]

Well of course I do not agree with you, but just to play along, what is your solution?

The solution to ending the appeal to the Rich Man and Lazarus as supposed "evidence" for Immortal Soul doctrine is simple:

Stop using lame excuses as permission to ignore the 14 contradictions.

 

[amigo de christo]

The solution to ending the appeal to the Rich Man and Lazarus as supposed "evidence" for Immortal Soul doctrine is simple:

Stop using lame excuses as permission to ignore the 14 contradictions.

why herein lies a massive problem my friend .
And its one that all need to take heed and beware of , lest they make the same deadly mistake you made .
I KNOW JESUS gave the parable of the rich man and lazarous and its darn clear what it means too .
But from whence did the fourteen contradictions come from , MEN buddy . YOU HEEDING MEN who have twisted things .
BETTER FOR YOU and for us all that we had just READ the bible for ourselves .
The fourteen contradictions came FROM MEN . the parable of the rich man and lazarous , CAME FROM CHRIST .
for years and for decades and for century and to centuries MEN HAVE ALWAYS TWISTED . BEWARE
lest we fall after the same example of unbelief OF WHAT JESUS SAID and HEED RATHER what MEN Say .
OH it is and it has been BIBLE TIME . the simplicity of the scriptures , the truth revealed
is pure and lovely to a lamb , but beware for men KNOW how to twist scrips and they do so untotheir own destruction .

 

[Behold]

2. ABRAHAM'S LITERAL BOSOM?
Lazarus was carried “into Abraham's bosom" - are we to believe all the righteous dead up until that time have been carried into Abraham's literal bosom? How big can Abraham's bosom be?

Its as big as it needs to be., similar to Hell.

 

[amigo de christo]

catholicism teaches salvation comes through the priesthood - not the blood of Christ. We should work hard to reach as many of our catholic friends with the truth as we can.

you have spoken a truth but now it is time for the whole truth and that whole truth
says THIS , catholicism and the protestant realm are IN DIRE and DEADLY TROUBLE
and have heeded men who have twisted for far too long .
WE should have just loved to read that bible for ourselves . OH how simple and clear it would have become and been
for all who had done this .
The protestant realm in large HAS BECOME THE CATHOLIC REALM and they all heed the voice of the harlot
who has brought in the lie to merge them all and all the false religoins along side them all .
This might seem hard to beleive , but the DELUSION that is very strong has come upon them
and its taking any and all captive to the lie . I truly wish i had better news for ya and for christendom . but truth is truth
and facts are facts . WE MUST RETURN to the bible to NOW LEARN for ourselves
by the guidance and grace of GOD the TRUTH .

 

[Grailhunter]

The solution to ending the appeal to the Rich Man and Lazarus as supposed "evidence" for Immortal Soul doctrine is simple:

Stop using lame excuses as permission to ignore the 14 contradictions.

First off I am not offering an explanation for the inaccuracies in Lazarus and the Rich man. I am saying in parables or stories it is the message that is important not the factual background.

So once we stop ignoring the 14 contradictions……
Do we ignore the story completely?
Do we continue to look for other contradictions to ignore?
Last count over 300 apparent contradictions…..where do we start?

 

[Behold]

The solution to ending the appeal to the Rich Man and Lazarus as supposed "evidence" for Immortal Soul doctrine is simple:

A real bible student would not use a parable to try to explain the immortal soul.
A real bible student, would turn to Genesis, and read that God who is A spirit... breathed into Adam and Adam became a living soul.
See that?
That is God in Adam, and that "living soul" is eternal.

Then you would read where Paul said, ... "Absent from the Body"....... "Present with the Lord"...
So, here we see that Paul is talking about Himself as the Spirit Man., the "inner man"... which of course is never going to end.
The only difference between the Immortal inner man found in a unbeliever vs a Believer is that the believer's inner man, is joined to God and goes to Heaven, and the unbelievers inner man is still this....."You are of your Father the devil".. and so that inner man, wont be going to heaven once their inner man leaves their dead body.

 

[amigo de christo]

Because the work of the Protestant Reformation to undo over 1,000 years of papacy dragging "baptized paganism" into the church - such as Immortal Soul/Eternal Torment doctrine - was unfortunately cut short.

The Reformation fought hard for 3 centuries, but in the 19th century when papal persecution came screeching to a halt, Protestantism got lazy and complacent. The papacy began to recover from that massive 16th century blow and little by little began to undo much good that the Reformers accomplished. Today, "protestants" are no longer protesting, which is why they are ignorant of what the church used to teach about many things.

They are IGNORANT of Luther's words that the idea of an immortal soul is among the "endless monstrosities in the Roman (catholic) dunghill of decretals".

They are IGNORANT that Protestant Historicism - not Jesuit "Left Behind" Futurism or Jesuit "Way Behind" Preterism - was the only game in town, for good reason.

They are IGNORANT of the distinction between the Moral Law and the Mosaic Law.

It is precisely Biblical IGNORANCE that so many not only support papal error, but defend it.

Though there were and have been true men throughout all ages who stood and contended for the truth faith
the problem within MUCH , but not all , of the protestant reformation was
though many of them had COME OUT of THE RCC , THE RCC was not fully removed from them .
THIS MESS led to disaster .
Its like the old saying goes , you can take the harlot out of the trailer park but you cant always get the trail park out of the harlot .
MANY of the leaders of the protestant realm had about enough truth to expose things about the RCC
but only enough to make themselves dangerous and THEY DID NOT COMPLETELY REMOVE all bad doctrines
but quickly rather just formed their own creeds and mottos . SOME , a few of the true lambs
saw this and they made an all out attempt to return to the original pattern left to us .
BOTH SIDES hated these true lambs . AND TODAY THEY HATE THEM EVEN MORE SO
as now both sides are being UNIFIED ONCE AGAIN and THAT WITH ALL THE RLEIGOINS to the cry of a HARLOT
WE IN TROUBLE . WE ARE IN TROUBLE . GET THE PEOPLE BACK INTO JUST , and i mean JUST the BIBLE .

 

[amigo de christo]

First off I am not offering an explanation for the inaccuracies in Lazarus and the Rich man. I am saying in parables or stories it is the message that is important not the factual background.

So once we stop ignoring the 14 contradictions……
Do we ignore the story completely?
Do we continue to look for other contradictions to ignore?
Last count over 300 apparent contradictions…..where do we start?

the contradictions are coming from men and their own interpreations .
WHERE DO WE START . do you REALLY want to hear the answer to your own question . cause i do have that answer .
WE start by PUTTING DOWN EVERY OTHER BOOK Of men
and pick up the BIBLE FOR OURSELVES , stop heeding scholars , denominations and etc
AND GET A NOSE FULL OF BIBLE FOR YOU . its very simple and things are made quite clear
for those WHO have done JUST THIS . THERE IS YOUR SOLUTOIN . a simple one IF YA ASK ME . only
we all know MOST REFUSE TO DO THIS . well their destruction draws nigh . I TRIED .
OH and by the way JUST remember i did not come to get you to read my best selling book
RATHER JUST THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF . so lets not start accusing me of trying to get followers .
THERE is only one denomination , one truth , one book i point too . JESUS THE CHRIST and GET IN THAT BIBLE FOR YOU .
that has been my message for years .

 

[Grailhunter]

the contradictions are coming from men and their own interpreations .
WHERE DO WE START . do you REALLY want to hear the answer to your own question . cause i do have that answer .
WE start by PUTTING DOWN EVERY OTHER BOOK Of men
and pick up the BIBLE FOR OURSELVES , stop heeding scholars , denominations and etc
AND GET A NOSE FULL OF BIBLE FOR YOU . its very simple and things are made quite clear
for those WHO have done JUST THIS . THERE IS YOUR SOLUTOIN . a simple one IF YA ASK ME . only
we all know MOST REFUSE TO DO THIS . well their destruction draws nigh . I TRIED .
OH and by the way JUST remember i did not come to get you to read my best selling book
RATHER JUST THE BIBLE FOR YOURSELF . so lets not start accusing me of trying to get followers .
THERE is only one denomination , one truth , one book i point too . JESUS THE CHRIST and GET IN THAT BIBLE FOR YOU .
that has been my message for years .

Well you are wrong.
We still have to contend with truth and the real....The world is not flat....you cannot put two of every animal on earth on one boat.
This is one of reasons that we are losing the youth in Christianity.....People like you....still a good person....people like you make Christianity seem like a fairytale and they are not willing to invest their lives and devotion into a fairytale.

George….So how did they feed all those animals on Noah’s Ark?
Bill….They feed them the floating dead bodies of sinners.
George….What did they do with all the poop?
Bill….God commanded the animals to poop over the side of the boat.

 

[Phoneman777]

Souls, defined as the invisible person, with a mind, emotions, conscioisness and in the case of departed souls, the volition part is limited to only expressing fear and torment.

Not sure where you get that definition from. When the Bible says "every living soul died in the sea" it's not talking about "invisible persons".

Genesis 2:7 KJV defines a "soul" as the union of the Body and the Breath of Life - bodies are very much visible, even dead bodies, which proves the "soul" is also visible.

 

[Phoneman777]

The fourteen contradictions came FROM MEN . the parable of the rich man and lazarous , CAME FROM CHRIST .

"Despise not prophesyings. PROVE ALL THINGS. Hold fast to that which is good."

Proving what is true cannot but expose that which is not true...the 14 contradictions prove the Rich Man and Lazarus is no "evidence" for Immortal Soul doctrine.