It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[The Light]

I have repeatedly addressed this, and you have repeatedly avoided my response. That's because you have to.

Claims of non existent avoidance is total argument. That is weak.

There is no tribulation after the coming of Christ here. I suspect you know that! That is why you're so evasive.

Evasive? Only in your mind. Your views do not agree with scripture as are continually proven.

I am still waiting for you to provide a post tribulation rapture scripture.

In Luke 21:33-36 Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

It says "that day [shall] come ... unawares." It says that it will come "as a snare .. on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." What day? The day when the "heaven and earth shall pass away." Read it!

Christ is exhorting His listeners here to be ready for His return, and warning that He will pour out His wrath upon all mankind who are not prepared, ready and rescued. This is the time when the heavens and the earth shall pass away. Read the wording and context of this promise. This is describing the sudden destruction that accompanies Christ's return. There are no survivors mentioned. There is no tribulation mentioned. We are looking at utter destruction. But we (the redeemed) are "accounted worthy to escape." It will come upon the rebel "unawares." That is because they are unprepared in their rebellion.

Your argument has one HUGE problem. You might look at verse 31.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

This verse comes BEFORE the verse about heaven and earth passing away so what you say is as usual incorrect. Heaven and earth passing away is not the things He is referring to. ALL THESE THINGS which come to pass are things that are talked about in the prior verses of Matthew 24.

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the wicked and current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

Never read any left behind novels and I never said there was a 7 year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel, which of course is 7 years.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:9 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the sudden destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

There are two harvests. The grain harvest and the fruit harvest. I realize you don't understand this, so how could you possibly understand what will come to pass.

 

[The Light]

There will be no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone.
Post trib believers have the Prophecy of Pauls, in 1 Thess 4:16-17, where we are told the faithful Christians who remain alive when Jesus Returns, will rise to meet Him and be with King Jesus in Jerusalem. Confirmed by Matthew 24:30-41

I am not waiting for you to show us a pre-trib rapture verse, as I very well know; there is not any scriptural support for that lie from hell.

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

 

[The Light]

There you go again! More avoidance. More falsehoods. You cannot even address the Op. You reinforce the Op every time you open your mouth.

LOL. All you got?

 

[WPM]

LOL. All you got?

The reason why no Pretribber can address the Op is because it is watertight. You're avoidance proves that.

 

[The Light]

Lol
You are twisting the narrative to say we escape before the events spoken of in the narrative occur.
Lets highlight those events....,

Lk 21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth.

36 But keep alert at all times [be attentive and ready], praying that you may have the strength and ability [to be found worthy and] to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man [at His coming].”

Maybe you missed verse 31 which occurs before verse 33.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

 

[The Light]

The reason why no Pretribber can address the Op is because it is watertight. You're avoidance proves that.

Your argument has one HUGE problem. You might look at verse 31.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

This verse comes BEFORE the verse about heaven and earth passing away so what you say is as usual incorrect. Heaven and earth passing away is not the things He is referring to. ALL THESE THINGS which come to pass are things that are talked about in the prior verses of Matthew 24.

 

[WPM]

Your argument has one HUGE problem. You might look at verse 31.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

This verse comes BEFORE the verse about heaven and earth passing away so what you say is as usual incorrect. Heaven and earth passing away is not the things He is referring to. ALL THESE THINGS which come to pass are things that are talked about in the prior verses of Matthew 24.
Never read any left behind novels and I never said there was a 7 year tribulation. There is a 70th week of Daniel, which of course is 7 years.[

Not in reality! Only in your head.

Read what Jesus said in Luke 21:25-36, not what you have been taught: “there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Where is your invented tribulation period mentioned here? Nowhere! It is all in your imagination. That is why you cannot present one single Scripture that teaches what you have been taught.

The whole context here is talking about that travail of the whole of creation for its eventual deliverance from the bondage of corruption. These words of Christ prove that the coming of the Lord is climatic. It ushers in the conflagration. The old heavens and earth will pass away on that final day. The old arrangement is replaced with the new heavens and the new earth. The curse will be lifted forever. God reverses all that is corrupt and evil and introduces paradise It is the end of sin and sinners, rebellion, death, time and corruption.

There is no escape from this final destruction. There are no survivors. Only the redeemed who have been caught up will be equipped to inherit the new earth.

 

[WPM]

There are two harvests. The grain harvest and the fruit harvest. I realize you don't understand this, so how could you possibly understand what will come to pass.

Here we go again! More extra-biblical teaching. More invented false teaching. Doubtless, more avoidance on the way. That is the pattern! This will not stop me asking the questions that you refuse to answer.

1. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
2. Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests. The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
3. Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
4. Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
5. Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
6. Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
7. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
8. Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
9. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?

 

[The Light]

Not in reality! Only in your head.

Read what Jesus said in Luke 21:25-36, not what you have been taught: “there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Where is your invented tribulation period mentioned here? Nowhere! It is all in your imagination. That is why you cannot present one single Scripture that teaches what you have been taught.

The whole context here is talking about that travail of the whole of creation for its eventual deliverance from the bondage of corruption. These words of Christ prove that the coming of the Lord is climatic. It ushers in the conflagration. The old heavens and earth will pass away on that final day. The old arrangement is replaced with the new heavens and the new earth. The curse will be lifted forever. God reverses all that is corrupt and evil and introduces paradise It is the end of sin and sinners, rebellion, death, time and corruption.

There is no escape from this final destruction. There are no survivors. Only the redeemed who have been caught up will be equipped to inherit the new earth.

Matthew 24 is Jesus talking about the 1st 6 seals. Here is the tribulation period you are seem unable to find.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Atarah]

Pretrib is the only position that is congruent with the whole of the scriptures when one adequately addresses the intended audience.
When Jesus told the Gentile woman, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” he clearly indicated that everything he spoke was for and about Israel.
Matthew 24 then is eschatology as it pertains to Israel. Wheat and Tares and Raptures has more details on this.

 

[WPM]

Matthew 24 is Jesus talking about the 1st 6 seals. Here is the tribulation period you are seem unable to find.

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

That all happened in AD70. Check the parallel passages and you will see that.

 

[Keraz]

Revelation 19
And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Thanks for your reply, not just ignored, as others do to me.

The real multitude in Rev 18 is the Christian martyrs, as described in Rev 6:9-11
Proved by how the bride of the Lamb is on earth waiting and ready for Jesus to Return.

 

[jeffweeder]

Maybe you missed verse 31 which occurs before verse 33.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

You miss the fact that the subject is still about his promised coming.
Lets back up even more...,

24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (completed).


That verse speaks of 70AD.

cont'....
25 “There will be signs (attesting miracles) in the sun and moon and stars; and on the earth [there will be] distress and anguish among nations, in perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea and the waves, 26 people fainting from fear and expectation of the [dreadful] things coming on the world; for the [very] powers of the heavens will be shaken.

27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with [transcendent, overwhelming] power and with great glory. 28 Now when these things begin to occur, stand tall and lift up your heads [in joy], because [suffering ends as] your redemption is drawing near.”
29 Then He told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees; 30 as soon as they put out leaves, you see it and know for yourselves that summer is near.

31 So you too, when you see these things happening, know [without any doubt] that the kingdom of God is near. 32 I assure you and most solemnly say to you, this generation [those living at that definite period of time preceding the second coming] will not pass away until everything takes place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth.



The only way that glorious day can come upon US suddenly like a trap is if we are still here.
It comes upon all people who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

 

[The Light]

You miss the fact that the subject is still about his promised coming.

The scripture in question is about escaping ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass and stand before the Son of man. Your post said all these things was about heaven and earth passing away. And yet I showed you that the things we can escape were discussed before we got to the verse about heaven and earth passing away.

The only way that glorious day can come upon US suddenly like a trap is if we are still here.
It comes upon all people who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Which is exactly why we are told to watch so we will know when He will come.

Revelation 3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

The Lord is coming more than once. He comes first for the bride that knows Him. He will then return from the wedding feast.

Luke 12
36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.

38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

There are two harvests........two folds. The first fold will be the Church. Then part of Israel will have its eyes opened. The second fold is the Chosen Bride. Two folds into one.

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

One of these folds.........the Church.............will escape all these things which come to pass.

 

[The Light]

Here we go again! More extra-biblical teaching. More invented false teaching. Doubtless, more avoidance on the way. That is the pattern! This will not stop me asking the questions that you refuse to answer.

1. Show us one Scripture that teaches that "the feasts of God are a picture of the end times"?
2. Show me New Testament Scripture that teaches that “there are two harvests. The grain harvest and the fruit harvest”?
3. Where is "the grain harvest" mentioned in the New Testament?
4. Where is "the fruit harvest " mentioned in the New Testament?
5. Where is "the barley harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
6. Where is "the wheat harvest" that you have previously invented and foisted on Scripture mentioned in the New Testament?
7. Where is all this jargon about "on the Feast of Trumpets, the fall harvest feast" in the New Testament text or in any rapture passage?
8. Where in the New Testament does it say “there are two raptures – grain and fruit”?
9. Where does it say anywhere in Scripture that “Noah is a picture of the Pretrib rapture” and “Lot is a picture of the Jewish harvest”?

That's just it with you. You never answer anything and yet you demand answers. I don't have time to deal with your lack of knowledge. Pick one thing that you want answered and I will answer that. After that, ask the next. After that the next. Sorry I just don't have time for this project but will deal with it one question at a time if you find it important.

 

[WPM]

That's just it with you. You never answer anything and yet you demand answers. I don't have time to deal with your lack of knowledge. Pick one thing that you want answered and I will answer that. After that, ask the next. After that the next. Sorry I just don't have time for this project but will deal with it one question at a time if you find it important.

Lol. Just what I predicted. This is your pattern. That is because what you claim cannot be supported by the Book. It is fiction. It is nonsense. It is a Jesuit doctrine.

 

[jeffweeder]

The scripture in question is about escaping ALL THESE THINGS that will come to pass and stand before the Son of man.

The Lord first has to come and then only the worthy stand before him after much tribulation.

2Thess 1 reposted.

4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

John 10
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

One of these folds.........the Church.............will escape all these things which come to pass.

No.
You have the lost sheep of Israel and then the Gentile sheep are brought in.
One new fold in Christ the shepherd of the sheep revealed at the end of the age.

Matthew 24:14
This good news of the kingdom [the gospel] will be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end [of the age] will come.

1. Matthew 13:40
   So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned in the fire, so will it be at the end of the age.
2. Matthew 13:49
   So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous

 

[The Light]

Lol. Just what I predicted. This is your pattern. That is because what you claim cannot be supported by the Book. It is fiction. It is nonsense. It is a Jesuit doctrine.

Just as I predicted. You never answer anything and yet you will ask a thousand questions and demand an answer. You know I'll take them one at a time, so you go and hide. You are a waste of time.

I ask you one question and you can't answer. Where is your post tribulation rapture in the Bible? LOL you can't find it.

 

[The Light]

The Lord first has to come and then only the worthy stand before him after much tribulation.

2Thess 1 reposted.

4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure.

5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

There is a difference between tribulations and The Great Tribulation, which cannot occur until the AOD is set up.

No.
You have the lost sheep of Israel and then the Gentile sheep are brought in.

This is correct.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

The fathers of Israel were supposed to be the first fruits of the first harvest, but they went to Baalpeor.

Just as we see today, the Gentiles are believers in Christ, but the Jews are mostly blinded. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the grain harvest, part of Israel will have its blindness removed.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Israel is found as grapes. They will be raptured at the fruit harvest. The world will be cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The reason there are 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes of Israel is because the grain harvest will have taken place............1st rapture.

 

[WPM]

Just as I predicted. You never answer anything and yet you will ask a thousand questions and demand an answer. You know I'll take them one at a time, so you go and hide. You are a waste of time.

I ask you one question and you can't answer. Where is your post tribulation rapture in the Bible? LOL you can't find it.

Take them one at a time - if you can! Start with Number 1. Is that such a hard ask?