It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Timtofly]

The wrath of God brings immediate and total destruction to the wicked, just like in Noah's day and in Sodom. You cannot deal with that because it totally exposes your doctrine.

Revelation 6 is not the same event as Revelation 19. That is your erroneous opinion without any Scripture to back it up. Human correlation is not God's Word.

Theology can lead the church astray for over a thousand years. God does not kill humans for teaching false doctrine and theology. Look at Islam. A corruption of Scripture taught since the 7th century. Almost as old as amil corruption, yet God let's such human theology permeate the church for centuries unchecked whether it is wrong or not. You think it is not wrong, yet at one point in your life you thought it was wrong, so you accepted human teaching that opposes God's Word, and God has allowed that to happen without killing every human who has corrupted God's Word and taught a false interpretation of Scripture.

Do you not think that the redeemed are currently in Paradise, or do you follow false teachings because that poster agrees with you on other false doctrine? So you need the corroboration and support from some who are not exactly in the same boat with you, but a similar boat of human understanding?

Your point is that there is wholesale dead people on the earth in Revelation 6. Did you not see that 2 billion people are killed at the 4th Seal, but no one is killed at the 6th Seal? Why does that not factor into your interpretation? Did you think adding logic and human reasoning into what John wrote helps your case? Not everyone is killed as you say at the Second Coming. Your interpretation assumes what is not even written. Then you have to claim that Revelation is too symbolic and no one can understand what is written. Does that excuse give you or anyone the right to add to God's Word?

The 7 Trumpets cannot even sound until the 7th Seal is opened. They cannot run in parallel with the Seals. You are going to have to do a lot of assuming to change what John wrote:

"And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."

How can you with all honesty think that when the 7th Seal is opened John has gone back to the events of the first Seal?

According to Revelation 6, and the current human population, only around 2 billion are killed during the 4th Seal and that is prior to the Second Coming, not at nor after the Second Coming. If John wrote:

"And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth."

How can you say all 8+ billion die in the 6th Seal, when that is not any where close to what John wrote? How can you spin the 4th Seal to corroborate your point? The 6th Seal is the Second Coming. Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming, because that is not how John wrote Revelation 19. The Second Coming is not even why John wrote Revelation 19. If you want to make a big deal that John wrote about a third Coming in Revelation 19, go ahead. The wrath of God was already poured out during the 3.5 days leading up to the battle of Armageddon that is declared in Revelation 19. You have the Second Coming after God's wrath as well. Unless as John wrote, Revelation 19 is not the Second Coming, but is a return that might happen after the Second Coming.

"And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth. And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image."

Even in your interpretation with the vials running parallel to the Seals, it is you who turns the Seals into God's wrath, when that is not what John wrote at all.

When Jesus opens the Seals, it is not the time God's wrath is poured out.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Op Note

Most of us know that there is no rebuttal to the truth of God. That is why Pretribbers have no answer to the Op. It is near impossible to get them to address a text, exegete a text, and flesh out a text. That is because no Scripture supports their error. It forbids Pretrib. The Bible depicts the coming of Christ as climactic. It is the end!

All they can do is duck and dive around the inspired pages and blatant truth. We have had another month of avoidance, another month of personal attacks on Posttribbers. That is all they have. The reader can go back and observe the continuous avoidance of all the multiple holes in the Pretrib theory on this thread. They can also note the extensive unaddressed detailed biblical posts of Posttribbers.

The reality is: Pretrib is dead. It is time to give it a decent burial.

And yet you have been asked 100 times to post a postrib rapture verse and you CAN NOT DO IT.
We, on the other hand, not only have verses affirming the pretrib rapture, they make a postrib rapture impossible.
Not to mention that all of you have backed yourselves into a corner by saying there's only one coming. Which is blatantly false.

a child with a Bible can see there's more than one coming.

 

[rebuilder 454]

I refer you to the Op that exposes your error. That is why you duck around it and act so immature.

There it is.
You are called out for what you do


Your default response is always to deflect, and never admit your trolling mess

 

[rebuilder 454]

The Pretrib theory is dead. It is time to give it a decent burial. Anyone who observed the debate on the following thread will know how ludicrous and defunct the Pretrib position is.

The absurdity of Pretrib logic

Pretrib was well and truly put to death in that discussion. All Pretribbers had in response was ad hominem, belittling and avoidance (and in Dougg’s case distorted charts). There is nothing that they could do with clear and repeated Scripture, apart from dismiss it, twist it, or ignore it.

All of the arguments that were furnished in regard to the so-called Pretrib proof-texts were exposed and shown to teach the opposite of what they actually claimed. Many texts that Pretribbers presented made no reference to a rapture, a 7-years trib (or any trib) following a rapture. This was shown to be Left Behind fiction. None of the scriptural texts taught a 3rd coming of Christ. This was shown to be an extra-biblical Pretrib invention.

Now it is time to bury the corpse.

I want to highlight some of the extra-biblical Pretrib slants that were placed on the sacred text, and outline the biblical response, which Pretribulationalists had no response to. Whatever angle you look at the doctrine, it doesn't add up and Scripture does not teach it.

You will see as the thread develops how Pretribbers typically do their best to avoid the sacred text and simply denigrate the poster with their usual evasive and insulting responses. The old adage stands true: if you cannot attack the message, then attack the messenger.

Remember: we are going to look at all the main Pretrib "proof-texts." If Pretribbers are uncomfortable with these, and these do not prove the Pretrib theory (as they do not), then the theory is dead in the water.

I know it is hard to divorce a person's beliefs from the person. But this is not personal. I am not attacking Pretribbers, I am confronting what I believe to be false teaching here.

Daniel 9



Where in Daniel 9 does it mention the Church? Where does it mentioned a rapture? Where does it mention a tribulation period, and where does it mention a 3rd coming? It is simply not there! It has to be forced into the sacred text!

The 10 virgins

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”



Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out” is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

In this parable, Jesus rejects the unprepared virgins. In Pretrib theology it does not have Jesus finally shutting the door (as He taught), but, rather, leaving it ajar. It gives the foolish virgins a second chance to make it, despite them being unprepared and despite them having rejected numerous opportunities before He comes they miss the boat.

This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming. It is nothing to do with percentages. Many parables are like that. It is to do with believers and unbelievers. It is describing those that are ready and those that are not. The enlightened will get the thrust. Whether theologians want to apply this to the visible church or to all mankind makes little difference. That is not worth fighting over. It is the overall trust that Christ is pressing up - be prepared.

Obviously, those left behind are unbelievers! Whether they are religious unbelievers, false professors within the visible church, or out-and-out heathens, is secondary. They simply do not belong to Jesus. They are lost. They miss the boat! Their day of opportunity is gone. All they have now is destruction. They are damned and doomed to a lost eternity.

Here is your shallow argument.( your nothingburger op of pure conjecture and grand canyon leaps into oblivion)
Lol
Nothing at all to see.
Flat out laughable.
Whatever you think you proved is just plain crazy.

 

[WPM]

Here is your shallow argument.( your nothingburger op of pure conjecture and grand canyon leaps into oblivion)
Lol
Nothing at all to see.
Flat out laughable.
Whatever you think you proved is just plain crazy.

You say this because you (or no Pretrib) can refute the Posttrib argument. The Op stands unchanged and unwavering.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You say this because you (or no Pretrib) can refute the Posttrib argument. The Op stands unchanged and unwavering.

The op is conjecture.
It originated in the error of the early church.
Originated in man's limited revelation, then moved forward in catholicism.
Was error then, and still is.

 

[WPM]

The op is conjecture.
It originated in the error of the early church.
Originated in man's limited revelation, then moved forward in catholicism.
Was error then, and still is.

It is originated in God's truth. If you have anything to refute it: show me how my understanding of the Scriptures in the Op is wrong then! If you cannot it will be a testimony that your posts are all noise. It seems like you are incapable of exegeting Scripture. All you have is your insults and avoidance.

 

[covenantee]

It originated in the error of the early church.

Who was the first to diagnose the error?

Name, date, source, verbatim quote; please.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Who was the first to diagnose the error?

Name, date, source, verbatim quote; please.

Postribbers all point it out. I am going off of THEIR personal testimony.
Every single postribber boldly proclaims it with authority.
"No church fathers taught the pretrib rapture"
( placing themselves as the modern day carriers of what ORIGINATED from a time of gross error)
How ironic.
A doctrine , man made, out of those with limited revelation and poorly thought out.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It is originated in God's truth. If you have anything to refute it: show me how my understanding of the Scriptures in the Op is wrong then! If you cannot it will be a testimony that your posts are all noise. It seems like you are incapable of exegeting Scripture. All you have is your insults and avoidance.

Says the man that has failed to produce a single verse pointing to a postrib rapture!!!.
Ahem...we own eschatology.
Go play.

 

[WPM]

Says the man that has failed to produce a single verse pointing to a postrib rapture!!!.
Ahem...we own eschatology.
Go play.

You have nothing to bring to the table but misrepresentations of reality.

 

[covenantee]

Postribbers all point it out. I am going off of THEIR personal testimony.
Every single postribber boldly proclaims it with authority.
"No church fathers taught the pretrib rapture"
( placing themselves as the modern day carriers of what ORIGINATED from a time of gross error)
How ironic.
A doctrine , man made, out of those with limited revelation and poorly thought out.

You claim "It originated in the error of the early church."

Just to minimize confusion, what is "it" and how was "it" an error?

 

[rebuilder 454]

You claim "It originated in the error of the early church."

Just to minimize confusion, what is "it" and how was "it" an error?

No verses point to a postrib rapture.
So how was their Doctrine correct?

 

[covenantee]

No verses point to a postrib rapture.
So how was their Doctrine correct?

So who was the first in historic Christianity to identify the posttrib rapture as an error?

 

[WPM]

No verses point to a postrib rapture.
So how was their Doctrine correct?

Check the Op. You have been avoiding it for long enough.

 

[rebuilder 454]

So who was the first in historic Christianity to identify the posttrib rapture as an error?

Jesus and the Holy Spirit

 

[covenantee]

Jesus and the Holy Spirit

Where did Jesus and the Holy Spirit mention posttrib?

Book, chapter, verse.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Where did Jesus and the Holy Spirit mention posttrib?

Book, chapter, verse.

We all believe Jesus returns postrib.
The Bible teaches the RAPTURE is pretrib.
That's how the saints got there in the postrib return of Rev 19.

 

[WPM]

We all believe Jesus returns postrib.
The Bible teaches the RAPTURE is pretrib.
That's how the saints got there in the postrib return of Rev 19.

Be the 1st Pretrib to give us a rapture passage followed by a tribulation.

 

[covenantee]

We all believe Jesus returns postrib.
The Bible teaches the RAPTURE is pretrib.
That's how the saints got there in the postrib return of Rev 19.

You claim that the posttrib rapture was an error of the early Church.

How early and by whom?

Name, date, source, verbatim quote.