It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Timtofly]

We all believe Jesus returns postrib.
The Bible teaches the RAPTURE is pretrib.
That's how the saints got there in the postrib return of Rev 19.

No, "we all" do not.

Some call the trib the last 1994 years. Is that the post trib you refer to? Then yes, after the trib experienced by the church, the Second Coming will end that trib of those days, which was geat, over 1990+ years in duration. If that is not the trib, you are meaning, then no, not all believe that is true.

The rapture was not pretib either, as it did not happen 1994 years ago.

The church does not return on white horses in Revelation 19. Returning on white horses is not the result of an alleged pre-trib rapture that happened 1994 years ago. Those white are not about a church at all, raptured or not raptured. Your antagonist would claim the raptured church gets raptured onto a white horse, not coming from heaven on a white horse, but you all would still be wrong. The 1994+ year trib had already ended years prior to Revelation 19. Revelation 19 is not the end of the tribulation of those days, nor is there any one coming out at that point, as all those on earth have the mark and will be dead. No one else is alive at that point. The prior 42 months was not even a tribulation.

So any other tribulation is post the Second Coming. Because the 1994+ year tribulation is the only tribulation that ends at the Second Coming. The church is gone, so that tribulation can no longer exist, as it only pertained to the church on the earth, which is now no longer on the earth.

Jesus never mentioned Revelation 19 once in all of His teachings. Neither did Paul. John is the only one to write about Revelation 19, so no other Scripture can corroborate what John wrote. You all are just going to have to accept what John wrote all on it's own context.

If what you allege about Revelation 20 is the Second Coming, are those souls of dead humans riding the souls of dead horses, all waiting to be resurrected once they arrive, both humans and horses? Most seem to think nothing in heaven has a physical body at that point, so how can there be physical horses and physical humans already coming from heaven, to kill those remaining on earth waiting at Armageddon?

Nor do I agree, these had already been raptured as the church. The church is raptured at the Second Coming, so Revelation 19 cannot be the Second Coming. The Second Coming already happened, and Jesus and company left the earth on white horses, and John never pointed that out to us. John never said what he wrote was the actual Second Coming. Yet the Second Coming was already mentioned by John but not explicitly, because no one knows when the Second Coming actually happens. John seems to remain with that sentiment, and never uses the explicit terms we use, ie Second Coming.

Forget pre-trib or post trib rapture. No one can seem to get where the Second Coming actually happens in the book of Revelation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, "we all" do not.

Some call the trib the last 1994 years. Is that the post trib you refer to? Then yes, after the trib experienced by the church, the Second Coming will end that trib of those days, which was geat, over 1990+ years in duration. If that is not the trib, you are meaning, then no, not all believe that is true.

The rapture was not pretib either, as it did not happen 1994 years ago.

The church does not return on white horses in Revelation 19. Returning on white horses is not the result of an alleged pre-trib rapture that happened 1994 years ago. Those white are not about a church at all, raptured or not raptured. Your antagonist would claim the raptured church gets raptured onto a white horse, not coming from heaven on a white horse, but you all would still be wrong. The 1994+ year trib had already ended years prior to Revelation 19. Revelation 19 is not the end of the tribulation of those days, nor is there any one coming out at that point, as all those on earth have the mark and will be dead. No one else is alive at that point. The prior 42 months was not even a tribulation.

So any other tribulation is post the Second Coming. Because the 1994+ year tribulation is the only tribulation that ends at the Second Coming. The church is gone, so that tribulation can no longer exist, as it only pertained to the church on the earth, which is now no longer on the earth.

Jesus never mentioned Revelation 19 once in all of His teachings. Neither did Paul. John is the only one to write about Revelation 19, so no other Scripture can corroborate what John wrote. You all are just going to have to accept what John wrote all on it's own context.

If what you allege about Revelation 20 is the Second Coming, are those souls of dead humans riding the souls of dead horses, all waiting to be resurrected once they arrive, both humans and horses? Most seem to think nothing in heaven has a physical body at that point, so how can there be physical horses and physical humans already coming from heaven, to kill those remaining on earth waiting at Armageddon?

Nor do I agree, these had already been raptured as the church. The church is raptured at the Second Coming, so Revelation 19 cannot be the Second Coming. The Second Coming already happened, and Jesus and company left the earth on white horses, and John never pointed that out to us. John never said what he wrote was the actual Second Coming. Yet the Second Coming was already mentioned by John but not explicitly, because no one knows when the Second Coming actually happens. John seems to remain with that sentiment, and never uses the explicit terms we use, ie Second Coming.

Forget pre-trib or post trib rapture. No one can seem to get where the Second Coming actually happens in the book of Revelation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Rev 19.
No brainer.

 

[rebuilder 454]

No, "we all" do not.

Some call the trib the last 1994 years. Is that the post trib you refer to? Then yes, after the trib experienced by the church, the Second Coming will end that trib of those days, which was geat, over 1990+ years in duration. If that is not the trib, you are meaning, then no, not all believe that is true.

The rapture was not pretib either, as it did not happen 1994 years ago.

The church does not return on white horses in Revelation 19. Returning on white horses is not the result of an alleged pre-trib rapture that happened 1994 years ago. Those white are not about a church at all, raptured or not raptured. Your antagonist would claim the raptured church gets raptured onto a white horse, not coming from heaven on a white horse, but you all would still be wrong. The 1994+ year trib had already ended years prior to Revelation 19. Revelation 19 is not the end of the tribulation of those days, nor is there any one coming out at that point, as all those on earth have the mark and will be dead. No one else is alive at that point. The prior 42 months was not even a tribulation.

So any other tribulation is post the Second Coming. Because the 1994+ year tribulation is the only tribulation that ends at the Second Coming. The church is gone, so that tribulation can no longer exist, as it only pertained to the church on the earth, which is now no longer on the earth.

Jesus never mentioned Revelation 19 once in all of His teachings. Neither did Paul. John is the only one to write about Revelation 19, so no other Scripture can corroborate what John wrote. You all are just going to have to accept what John wrote all on it's own context.

If what you allege about Revelation 20 is the Second Coming, are those souls of dead humans riding the souls of dead horses, all waiting to be resurrected once they arrive, both humans and horses? Most seem to think nothing in heaven has a physical body at that point, so how can there be physical horses and physical humans already coming from heaven, to kill those remaining on earth waiting at Armageddon?

Nor do I agree, these had already been raptured as the church. The church is raptured at the Second Coming, so Revelation 19 cannot be the Second Coming. The Second Coming already happened, and Jesus and company left the earth on white horses, and John never pointed that out to us. John never said what he wrote was the actual Second Coming. Yet the Second Coming was already mentioned by John but not explicitly, because no one knows when the Second Coming actually happens. John seems to remain with that sentiment, and never uses the explicit terms we use, ie Second Coming.

Forget pre-trib or post trib rapture. No one can seem to get where the Second Coming actually happens in the book of Revelation.

Preterist grand canyon leap.
History itself destroys preterism.
It is not a plausible position.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You claim that the posttrib rapture was an error of the early Church.

How early and by whom?

Name, date, source, verbatim quote.

I already addressed this. It is every single post tribulation rapture adherent ,that proclaims, that nowhere did the early church fathers preach a pre-tribulation rapture.
Which by the way has been debunked by several people.
So it is their workbook that makes the claim that they got their Doctrine from Ancients that did not understand what in the world was going on

 

[rebuilder 454]

Be the 1st Pretrib to give us a rapture passage followed a tribulation.

Lol.
Every single rapture verse is commerce and normal life setting.

 

[covenantee]

I already addressed this. It is every single post tribulation rapture adherent ,that proclaims, that nowhere did the early church fathers preach a pre-tribulation rapture.
Which by the way has been debunked by several people.
So it is their workbook that makes the claim that they got their Doc⅞trine from Ancients that did not understand what in the world was going on

Which of "name, date, source, verbatim quote" don't you understand?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Which of "name, date, source, verbatim quote" don't you understand?

How many ways can you cook chicken?

Hello...THEY MAKE THE CLAIM...NOT ME.
ASK THEM about their assumptions.

It is THEM that are oblivious that they are saying the church fathers infallibility is PROOF of their bogus doctrine.

Only a dummy would reference men from an era of heretics.
Then act like if they, ( the ancient dead men) never referenced correct doctrine then we will surely reject doctrine.
IOW, our modern superior postribbers get a pass from investigation.
Nor will they acknowledge verses blowing their deal into oblivion.

Center in on what the deal is.
Stop trying to act like there was no heresy in the first churches.
Ahem..where postribbers CLAIM THEIR deal originated.

Sit and wonder that for a second.

 

[covenantee]

Hello...THEY MAKE THE CLAIM

More private hallucinations.

Who and what are THEY and the CLAIM?

I've asked repeatedly for evidence and you've provided none.

So until you can provide "name, date, source, verbatim quote", go peddle your dispensational delusions elsewhere.

 

[WPM]

Lol.
Every single rapture verse is commerce and normal life setting.

Be the 1st Pretrib to give us a rapture passage followed by a tribulation.

 

[rebuilder 454]

More private hallucinations.

Who and what are THEY and the CLAIM?

I've asked repeatedly for evidence and you've provided none.

So until you can provide "name, date, source, verbatim quote", go peddle your dispensational delusions elsewhere.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Be the 1st Pretrib to give us a rapture passage followed by a tribulation.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

After all this time, there is no addressing of the Op by Pretribs. I wonder why? There is zero support in Scripture. All we are getting is noise and avoidance.

I think we have finally laid that Jesuit doctrine into the ground in this thread to rest in peace. Time to move unto Premil.

 

[The Light]

Be the 1st Pretrib to give us a rapture passage followed by a tribulation.

No problem.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Now lets see a post tribulation rapture scripture.....................CRICKETS.

 

[jeffweeder]

No problem.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Lol
You are twisting the narrative to say we escape before the events spoken of in the narrative occur.
Lets highlight those events....,

Lk 21
33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

34 “But be on guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down and depressed with the giddiness of debauchery and the nausea of self-indulgence and the worldly worries of life, and then that day [when the Messiah returns] will not come on you suddenly like a trap; 35 for it will come upon all those who live on the face of all the earth.

36 But keep alert at all times [be attentive and ready], praying that you may have the strength and ability [to be found worthy and] to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man [at His coming].”


We endure to stand before the Son of Man when he comes and are found worthy in doing so.
We do not escape before he comes. If we did then how could the day of his return come upon us suddenly?

Paul agrees with this sentiment....,


2thess 1
4 Therefore, we speak of you with pride among the churches of God for your steadfastness [your unflinching endurance, and patience] and your firm faith in the midst of all the persecution and [crushing] distress which you endure. 5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.

6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him].

9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].

 

[Keraz]

No problem.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Now lets see a post tribulation rapture scripture.....................CRICKETS.

Escape all these things?
KJV Luke 21:34-36 Take heed, yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with the surfeit and cares of this life, so that the Day comes upon you unawares. For as a snare, it will come on all those that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch, ye, therefore and pray always that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass and so stand before the Son of Man.

NIV Be careful or your hearts will be weighed down with dissipation and the anxieties and that Day will close on you unexpectedly, like a trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.

NET Be on your guard, so that your hearts are not weighed down with dissipation and the worries of this life and that Day close down on you like a trap. For it will overtake all who live on the face of the earth. But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that must happen and to stand before the Son of Man.

REB Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation and worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you suddenly, like a trap. For that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for the strength to pass through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man.

This interesting Bible passage requires careful examination. It is obvious that it refers to the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath – the next prophesied event, then eventually, how we will stand in the Presence of Jesus.
We are informed that ALL who live on the earth will experience this coming Day. Only those who are ‘accounted worthy’ or ‘have the strength’, will ‘pass (safely) through’ or ‘escape all these things’, ‘that shall come to pass’ or ‘that must happen’.
So, this great Day of vengeance and wrath, will happen and judging by the current world situation, especially in the Middle East, that may be quite soon.

This Day ‘will come upon everyone on earth’, so it is incorrect to say that it is possible to ‘escape all these things’. We will not be ‘raptured’, or taken to a ‘place of safety’ on that Day. We are told to pray for strength and stay alert during this terrifying time. Before it happens, in the short time that we have left of the present dispensation, we ‘must not let worldly cares weigh us down’, so that the Day does not catch us without fore warning and unprepared. If you know what is coming, you are not shocked and terrified, you make preparations, you stay calm, trusting in God to keep you safe. Isaiah 30:15
Therefore the REB gives the correct translation.

To recap: many prophesies speak of this great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, which will come suddenly and unexpectedly upon the whole world. What best fits the descriptions?

Nuclear explosions? No, because even a large bomb only destroys up to a certain radius.

Comet strike? Possible, as that would cause worldwide effects. This will happen during the Tribulation period. Revelation 8:8-11.

Coronal mass ejection? Yes, a massive CME fits all the prophecies and does not leave radiation.

Isaiah 30:26a....the sun will shine with seven times its usual brightness.....
No other explanation that a CME can be inferred from that prophecy. But then;

Isaiah 30:26b... on the Day the Lord heals His people....
The promise is given that on this Day, the Lord will save and protect His righteous people.

Joel 3:16 The Lord roars from Zion and thunders from Jerusalem, so that the heaven and the earth shudder, but He is a refuge for His people, a defence for the Israelites.

Read Psalm 107 for encouragement.

 

[WPM]

No problem.
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Now lets see a post tribulation rapture scripture.....................CRICKETS.

I have repeatedly addressed this, and you have repeatedly avoided my response. That's because you have to.

There is no tribulation after the coming of Christ here. I suspect you know that! That is why you're so evasive.

In Luke 21:33-36 Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

It says "that day [shall] come ... unawares." It says that it will come "as a snare .. on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." What day? The day when the "heaven and earth shall pass away." Read it!

Christ is exhorting His listeners here to be ready for His return, and warning that He will pour out His wrath upon all mankind who are not prepared, ready and rescued. This is the time when the heavens and the earth shall pass away. Read the wording and context of this promise. This is describing the sudden destruction that accompanies Christ's return. There are no survivors mentioned. There is no tribulation mentioned. We are looking at utter destruction. But we (the redeemed) are "accounted worthy to escape." It will come upon the rebel "unawares." That is because they are unprepared in their rebellion.

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the wicked and current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:9 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the sudden destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

 

[The Light]

Op Note

After all this time, there is no addressing of the Op by Pretribs. I wonder why? There is zero support in Scripture. All we are getting is noise and avoidance.

I think we have finally laid that Jesuit doctrine into the ground in this thread to rest in peace. Time to move unto Premil.

LOL. I'm still waiting on that non existent post tribulation rapture scripture.

 

[Keraz]

LOL. I'm still waiting on that non existent post tribulation rapture scripture.

There will be no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone.
Post trib believers have the Prophecy of Pauls, in 1 Thess 4:16-17, where we are told the faithful Christians who remain alive when Jesus Returns, will rise to meet Him and be with King Jesus in Jerusalem. Confirmed by Matthew 24:30-41

I am not waiting for you to show us a pre-trib rapture verse, as I very well know; there is not any scriptural support for that lie from hell.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:9 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the sudden destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

This is error and denies the clear descriptions of what will happen when Jesus Returns.
Revelation 15:1 proves you wrong and Revelation 20 clearly informs us about the Millennium reign of Jesus as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Only after the thousand years is over, is Satan released for a short while, then comes the final Judgment and after that is Eternity.

 

[WPM]

LOL. I'm still waiting on that non existent post tribulation rapture scripture.

There you go again! More avoidance. More falsehoods. You cannot even address the Op. You reinforce the Op every time you open your mouth.