Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion

[rwb]

Listen... in Matthew 17:9 about Moses and Elijah...appeared and spoke with Jesus Christ at the Mount of Transfiguration. Peter, James and John saw them. What were their bodies like? Was it "temporary" before Christ went to the Cross? Or are you going to deny this altogether by saying it's just a supernatural "vision" rather than real physical events and conclude that Moses and Elijah were not truly there, perhaps, because they were not supposed to have bodies or be alive at that time before the Cross?

This is a vision, but it is important to note that these two Old Covenant faithful saints were shown in the vision as proof there is life (spiritual) after death for those of Old who died before the advent of Christ. According to the Old Covenant prophets those of faith would be redeemed from the grave after the promised Messiah/Savior comes. That's why Christ tells them not to tell anyone of the vision until the Son of man has risen from the grave. If the Old Covenant saints were not spiritually alive after death, as shown through the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, then the vision would not have shown these two spiritually alive, not physically alive. It was in knowing the spirit is still alive of those of Old who died in faith, that would help the disciples to believe that John the Baptist had come in the spirit and power of Elijah, just as the prophets of Old and Christ say he would. Of course, giving greater confirmation that Christ, The Messiah/Savior was the Son of God, called by the name of Jesus.

Matthew 17:10-12 (KJV) And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.

Malachi 4:5-6 (KJV) Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

 

[TribulationSigns]

With what you submitted in mind. Here is an interesting passage below everyone should also be familiar with. Do you then think Samuel came up bodily?

1 Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 ¶And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

What are you implying here? Did your think Jesus was a witch who calling up the spirit of Moses and Elijah?

Poorly comparison on your part.

 

[rwb]

With what you submitted in mind. Here is an interesting passage below everyone should also be familiar with. Do you then think Samuel came up bodily?

1 Samuel 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 ¶And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?

Samuel came up through the power of evil! This was done through the providence of God to send a message to Saul telling him the LORD had departed from him.

1 Samuel 28:9 (KJV) And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?

 

[Davidpt]

Matthew 22:31-32

Jesus: "But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living (záō - of those who are alive in the body)."

It's evident from the text which states that the Pharisees heard that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees with the above statement, that the Pharisees knew that even the Sadducees understood that they could bring no further argument against the resurrection of the body from the dead to Jesus. They were silenced.

Amillennialists: ("Let's change the meaning of this"):

"As touching eternal spiritual life in Christ through the spiritual resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of those who are spiritually alive in Christ."

Changing the meaning of the words of Christ - and of many passages of scripture - is a thing with Amillennialism, and the thing that marks Amil theology. But they have the same problem the Pharisees and Sadducees had with regard to scripture: When faced with a choice between what scripture is actually saying and what their theology teaches scripture is saying, they adhere to faith in their theology.

The reason why the Pharisees and Sadducees were both condemned though, was because of their rejection of Christ. Jesus' words to the Sadducees concerning their theology regarding the resurrection of the body from the dead could perhaps not even be considered a rebuke, because He simply said, "You are sorely mistaken".

But the mindset of the Amillennialists, who because of their faith in their own theology whenever and wherever scripture disagrees with Amillennialism, change the meaning of many New Testament passages in order to attempt to have scripture comply with their false theology, is certainly reminiscent of the mindset of the Pharisees and Sadducees.

It's always very noticeable how quickly they resort to PERSONAL insults - ad hominem attacks - at anyone and everyone who disagrees with them and tells them what the scriptures are actually saying.

Anyway when they realize how sorely mistaken they were, they may not? receive a rebuke for their mistaken theology - but they might receive a rebuke for the many personal attacks they may have leveled against those who disagreed with them.

Either way they will have to face more than a little measure of embarrassment.

And it doesn't matter to Premillennialists, because truth - the truth regarding every matter concerning God and His creatures - was in Christ already from before the world began, and Amillennialists cannot change the truth which is in Christ no matter how many scriptures they change the meaning of, in their futile attempts to get scripture to comply with their theology.

@Stewardofthemystery @Davidpt

And let's not forget what some Amils do with the following passage as well. Especially verse 44 and the way some of them apply that, thus disregarding that verses 51-57 follow verse 44, obviously further expanding on verse 44.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 

[Davidpt]

What are you implying here? Did your think Jesus was a witch who calling up the spirit of Moses and Elijah?

Poorly comparison on your part.

My point was, regardless which manner Samuel came up, do you think he came up bodily or in some manner, since you apparently think some of the departed saints are already in physical bodies? Or at least that was the impression you were giving per the transfiguration example. Maybe I need to go back again and read what you said in the post? Maybe I misunderstood you or something?

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

His presence was not permanently in them.

I asked for a verse, not your own spin.

I allowed your arrogance to get under my skin,

That is the Truth causing you to be tormented for telling lies.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Since Amils are applying a disembodied state rather than a bodily state to the saints in Revelation 20:4 after they are physically dead then seen living and reigning with Christ, this apparently means they place a disembodied state above that of a bodily state.

I believe they are just repeating a doctrine they have taught by other men, instead of looking at the context without this doctrinal bias. They are seeking to defend a doctrine, they are not sincerely seeking the Truth.

Also keep in mind some people are meant to be deceived and led astray because they are not the chosen/elect of God. Only the elect will not be deceived in this time of great deception.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You've lost me here!

Clearly

God is the God of the DEAD Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

I thought you said…
“Abaham is the God of the living.”

ROFL!

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Can you also show us the verse that says, the Holy Spirit was permanently in them?

Isaiah 59:21
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

John 14:16
King James Version
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16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

 

[Ritajanice]

My spirit that is upon thee

It means exactly what it’s saying..” upon thee”.

That is not saying I “permanently indwell thee”.

 

[Ritajanice]

Isaiah 59:21
As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

John 14:16​

King James Version​

​

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

This is about Jesus leaving his disciples..when’s he goes to his death..he was comforting them, with these words​

​

John 14-16​

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King James Version​

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14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.
20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
31 But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

 

[rwb]

That is the Truth causing you to be tormented for telling lies.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am at peace! Since you're the one continuing to push a false doctrine, the torment is no doubt causing you such consternation! That is unless your conscience has been so utterly seared that the Holy Spirit no longer convicts you!

 

[rwb]

My point was, regardless which manner Samuel came up, do you think he came up bodily or in some manner, since you apparently think some of the departed saints are already in physical bodies? Or at least that was the impression you were giving per the transfiguration example. Maybe I need to go back again and read what you said in the post? Maybe I misunderstood you or something?

You seem not to even notice that the witch was able to speak to the spirit of Samuel after he had physically died? How could that be possible unless the spirit of Samuel lived on after his body had breathed its last? The witch describes that which she was able to conjure up, "I saw gods ascending out of the earth." Does this sound like the physical body of Samuel resurrected to life again to you? Because Premillennialists, as yourself, believe there cannot be any life after death for faithful saints before they are bodily resurrected to life when Christ returns to usher in ONE thousand more years of time, even though Scripture tells us that time shall be no longer when the seventh trumpet sounds, which is when Christ shall come again.

1 Samuel 28:13-19 (KJV) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

It means exactly what it’s saying..” upon thee”.

That is not saying I “permanently indwell thee”.

You guys crack me up. Do you also believe the Spirit did not indwell Jesus because it says “my spirit upon him”

Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

God’s Word and Spirit indwell His anointed seed.


2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

You guys confirm day by day how little you understand.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Sorry to disappoint you, but I am at peace!

Your conscience must be seared.

 

[Ritajanice]

You guys crack me up.

What does crack you up mean!

Do you also believe the Spirit did not indwell Jesus because it says “my spirit upon him”

Matthew 12:18
Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.

God’s Word and Spirit indwell His anointed seed.

Who was God’s anointed seed?

For the fulfillment of God's purpose, “the seed” is a very important matter. In the Bible we see that Christ is a threefold seed: He is the seed of the woman (Gen.3:15), the seed of Abraham (Gen.17:2), and the seed of David.

Also...The Seed is the word of God. If it enters the human heart, the Seed will produce the fruits. God sends His word through the sower, and His word will always come in the form of a seed.

2 Corinthians 6:16
And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Light and darkness cannot be in fellowship. Christ and Satan cannot work together. Christians are God's temples on earth since His Spirit lives in them. That's why they must separate themselves from any kind of formal, binding relationship with unbelievers.

You guys confirm day by day how little you understand.

Jesus was God in the flesh my friend..

He was in harmony with the Father, everything he spoke was from the Father.

....total surrender/ total obedience.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No we believe that we take part in the first resurrection when we first believe in Jesus

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

But your view suffers from an exegetical problem, because John doesn't mention the resurrection of Jesus in that context. Rather he mentions two groups of people who were once dead, but came back to life. To participate in the first resurrection is to be among the number of people who were in the first group.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I don't know who said so, but I don't think that's a typical amil belief. A quick internet search yields this, which is in line with what I've heard in the past...

When Jesus speaks about the saving of souls, he speaks about rebirth, not reanimation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

... and our part in it constitutes salvation. Those who partake in the same enter into eternal life in the here-and-now and are delivered from the second death. Simple! Biblical! True!

Hope this dispels your confusion.

Although this is true, the question is whether John is making that point in Revelation 20:4-5 or another point entirely. This is an exegetical question, which must be answered from the text under review. John mentions two groups of dead people who come back to life. Participating in the "first resurrection" in that context refers to being counted among those in the first group of dead who were brought back to life.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

What does crack you up mean!

It means you make me laugh.

Also...The Seed is the word of God.

Correct, and the Word of God is Christ.

If it enters the human heart,

You mean if He = the Living Word= Christ

Light and darkness cannot be in fellowship. Christ and Satan cannot work together.

Tell me, why is it that Amil teaches that Satan is bound right now? Can’t they see all the darkness in this present world?