Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion

[Davidpt]

Where does verse 4 mention martyrs? Nowhere!

You add it unto the sacred text, as you do with the thousand years everywhere in the Book is not stated.

I thought everyone agreed they were martyrs, even Amils? I thought, per your view they would be being martyred during the thousand years?

Per my view they would be martyred before the thousand years.

Per Amil how did they die to begin with if you don't agree they were martyred, for instance, because they refused to worship the beast Maybe it's just me, but if any saint is killed because they refuse to worship the beast, that sounds like they were martyred to me. Doesn't sound like they died of natural causes, or of old age, or even in their sleep, it sounds like they have been martyred to me.

 

[Davidpt]

WPM. Easy, dude. Come on. You're surely not the only one, but, man, this is not mortal combat. <chuckles> Ease up, man.

Grace and peace to you.

LOL. I didn't take his post in that manner. I didn't feel like he was being hostile per that post. I didn't see anything wrong with his post. But it did surprise me when I found out Amils don't even think anyone in verse 4 was martyred, though. Imagine that, being beheaded but it doesn't even mean to Amils that anyone was martyred. Go figure.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 20:4

• "And I saw thrones, and they set upon them, and judgment was given unto them. And I saw the souls of them which were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither has received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands, and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".

In verse 4 John tells us that he saw the souls of the martyrs who did not worship the beast, nor receive his mark. First of all, notice that John does "not" say he saw the martyrs, nor does he say that he saw their bodies, or the persons, or he saw souls (which could be illustrating people). He is very specific! He saw the souls "of" those that were beheaded for the witness of God. The souls of them, nothing more! Again, this is the Spiritual picture that the Lord is giving us. First the Messenger of the Covenant (Jesus Christ) comes from heaven and binds Satan so that the New Covenant Church can be built, and then John sees the souls of those martyred raised up to reign with Christ on thrones. In other words, they are made kings and Priests unto God after Christ binds Satan! If you look at verse 5 you'll see that this (the souls of these martyrs up on thrones) is called The First Resurrection. It's now a simple matter of Biblical deduction to discover exactly when and what was "The First Resurrection?"

Again, fitting perfectly into place we see that it was at the cross! These Souls were raised up to reign with Christ because of the work at the cross and Christ's resurrection thereafter. Christ is the "First" Resurrection. Those who have part in the first resurrection are all the True Believers who have a part in Christ's First Resurrection. They are the First Resurrection (the second being at Christ's return). Those who have physically died in Christ have gone to be with the Lord, having been raised with Christ to reign. That's the First Resurrection these martyrs have part in, which precludes the second death.

The very fact a first resurrection is spoken about, indicates that there is a second resurrection. And the second resurrection is at Christ's Second Coming on the Last Day. This will also be the time of the Rapture of the alive and remain, and at the same time, the rest of the unsaved dead will be raised to stand for Judgment. And then there will be the second death, of which those who have part in the First Resurrection (raised with Christ) do not need to worry about. Likewise, the very fact that a second death is spoken about, implies that there was a first death that we all had - spiritual death brought in by Adam:

Romans 5:12-14

• "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
• (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
• Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come."

The first death is our death in Adam! Selah!!! For in him we are all dead in tresspass and sin. As God told Adam, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And in Adam, we all die, which means that we are all dead in trespass and sin. This is that first death.

1st Corinthians 15:21-22

• "For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
• For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive."

Did Adam die when he ate of the tree? Yes, but not physically, he died spiritually. Adam was immediately separated from God. Therefore the first resurrection from the dead is not physical, but spiritual! Hello?! It is in Christ, the firstfruit. And we shall 'realize' that eternal life resurrection at his coming.

Do not be confused by this First and Second Resurrection, and the First and Second Death. This is the way the Lord writes things that His sheep 'alone' will receive it. Just as in the parables He told. If we look at these verses carefully and objectively, we can see that the thousand years are NOT literal. These souls are those of the martyrs in heaven. It says these are those beheaded BECAUSE of the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and are those who didn't receive the mark of the beast in their foreheads (sign of bondage to satan) ever since the Cross.

And we read the rest of the dead lived not again for 1000 years (verse 5). This also illustrates that this is not speaking about a "future" first resurrection, for there is only ONE future resurrection of the just and the unjust. And it is not (nor can it be) the first. If this were indeed a literal number of years, then even all of the "rest of those who died" would have all had to die on the same year, else they could not have died and not lived again for that literal thousand years. Hello?? Did everybody (the rest of the dead) all die the same year? ..see how convoluted mess this gets Premillennialists in? Likewise in the 1000 years the believers who died lived and reigned with Christ, is it the same thousand years satan is bound? If so, how can the souls of the dead be reigning with Christ in heaven when Christ is (supposedly) reigning with men here on earth in literal Jerusalem in the Middle East? Moreover, if the rest of the dead for a thousand years refers to the same thousand literal years Satan is bound, then when Satan is loosed after the thousand years, these "rest of the dead" must also live again, and we have a world with dead people walking around, because scripture emphatically says they lived again after the thousand years, humm? Does Satan have an army of "literal" dead people helping him deceive the nations and coming against the camp of the Saints? For the rest of these dead live after this thousand years, and Satan is loosed after a thousand years, on and on and on... See this is INCONSISTENCY and TORTURE of Scripture is endless in the premillennialist doctrine. If we just bother to look at it carefully we understand that it simply cannot be literally a thousand years, period!

(Continue to next post due to limited space)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Continued from previous post)

But here is the truth of the matter. We should understand that everything in this Revelations chapter 20 is going along in a logical chronological progression. Christ, The Messenger of the Covenant, comes down from heaven with this Key (Christ is the one with the Keys to Hell and death -Rev. 1:18) and great chain and lays hold on Satan and bounds him 1000 year (the fullness time for the Lords purpose) so that He can free Satan's prisoners from his house (world) and populate Christ's Kingdom with the spoil! He shuts Satan up in this spiritual prison symbolized by the fathomless abyss where he can't deceive the world and prevent the Lord's plan to build His Temple by spoiling satan's house! This is why God sets a seal on him (indicating that He assures this). This is God's "signification" of security that no one can loose Satan but God who bound him. He will not be not loosed until the fullness of time is accomplished (spiritually, 1000 years), especially when God has finish seal all of His Elect through the testimony of the Two Witnesses with Gospel. This is WHY after Satan is bound, John sees the souls of the martyrs then living and reigning on thrones. This is consistent with scripture of the binding of Satan, and the work of Christ on the cross which allows these souls to have been raised up from the (spiritual) dead to "live" and "work" (reign) with Christ by preaching the Gospel! They are NOW kings and Priests unto their God having had part in Christ's Resurrection. Even if some of them have physically died, they goes up into heaven and continue work with Christ in Heaven until the Second Coming to gather the alive and remain on Earth to meet in the air. These are those who are NOT servants of Satan (received his mark of servitude), but they are/were martyred BECAUSE of their WITNESS the Gospel (Word of God) they brought. And they all live and reign (spiritually) 1000 years with Christ. And it is by the work of this messenger of the Covenant that they can be translated into the Kingdom and live and reign with Christ. This is the purpose of the CHURCH! Not some future Millennial Kingdom.

Ephesians 2:56-57

• "Even when we were Dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ, by Grace ye are Saved,
  
  
• and hath Raised us up together, and made us to sit in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus".

What raising up or resurrection FROM THIS DEATH? If it's not the "first" then all scripture is untrustworthy and nothing to be believed! Because God says Christ is the First born from the dead, that in all things he might have preeminence. Is that true or not? These souls reigning with Christ reign because they were in Christ when He went to the cross and they were raised up with Him (The First Resurrection) to be seated in heavenly places having the Judgment of God with Power, because God dwelleth within them. Anyone who tries to tell you that the first resurrection hasn't happened yet, either doesn't know the scriptures very well, or is deliberately ignoring them.

If you recall when Mary's brother Lazarus died, Jesus came to her and she said, I know he will be raised at "The Last Day". Well, the last day is the day of the Rapture, yes, BUT it will be the SECOND RESURRECTION, not the first! But Jesus made it perfectly clear to her of another Resurrection. The First! Consider wisely..

John 11:25

• "Jesus said unto her, I Am The Resurrection and the Life. He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live,
• and whosoever that liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believeth thou this?"

Perhaps we should ask the Theologians of the Premillennialist Churches today if Jesus indeed was the Resurrection, because it doesn't appear that they believe this is true. Jesus was telling her, the first Resurrection unto Life is in Me, it's right here! RIGHT NOW! I AM the Resurrection! He that liveth and believeth in Me shall never die! In other words, neither Lazarus nor you have to die physically and wait until the end of the world (The resurrection at the Last Day as Martha says) to be resurrected. In fact, if you do wait till that time to be resurrected, you won't see life! The First resurrection is right here. Right now and without it, you are subject to the second death! But if you have part in this First Resurrection (in Christ) the second death hath no power over you. And that is exactly what Revelation 20 said about the First Resurrection.

 

[Zao is life]

Colossians 2:10-14 says, “ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ‘ye are risen with him’ [Gr. sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised [Gr. egeiro] him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened [Gr. suzoopoieo] together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

Your confusion lies in the fact that Jesus' Spirit was not quickened or raised from the dead. His dead body was quickened and His dead body was raised,

and the only way anyone can be quickened with Him is through spiritual birth, being born of His Spirit - which does not constitute a spiritual "resurrection" or the human spirit being "raised to life" but - as the New Testament teaches - occurs when THE LIFE (who is Christ, the Way, the Truth and the ZOE, the Life) breathes life into that human body - giving the soul which was dead LIFE, ie, spiritual BIRTH.

Your confusion is born out of the fact that you refuse to believe the New Testament gospel, which teaches that

BEING BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD
PLACES AN INDIVIDUAL IN CHRIST

CAUSING THE INDIVIDUAL'S DEAD | DYING BODY
TO BE QUICKENED

WHICH WILL PRODUCE

THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY FROM DEATH
(WITH CHRIST'S RESURRECTION), WHEN HE RETURNS,

AND THE REGENERATION OF ALL THINGS.

THIS IS EVERLASTING LIFE
AND THIS IS THE NEW TESTAMENT'S TEACHING

ALL THANKS TO CHRIST TAKING ON A HUMAN BODY,
AND TAKING OUR SIN UPON HIMSELF,
BEARING THE SIN IN HIS OWN BODY ON THE CROSS
AND DYING, AND RISING AGAIN FROM THE DEAD,
HAVING BEEN QUICKENED BY THE SPIRIT​

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

Jesus' Spirit was not quickened or raised from the dead. His dead body was quickened and His dead body was raised, The Spirit of Christ who quickened His dead body and raised His dead body does not quicken a 'dead' human spirit that was born of God when THE LIFE of Christ was breathed into a human and the person is placed in Christ.

(i) The word zoopoieo (quickening, being made alive) is being applied to the mortal body in the above verses (and ALWAYS applies only to the dead body).

(ii) The words egeiro, synegeiro and anastasis are always referring to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament.

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

Christ's body was quickened, and His body was raised.

Colossians 3:3:
For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God.

Colossians 2:12-13 tells Christians that we have been "buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are all risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him (syzōopoiéō), having forgiven you all trespasses." -- Colossians 2:12-13.

The New Testament teaches without any of the ambiguity your theology introduced to the gospel that through being born of the Spirit our DEAD BODIES are quickened with the quickening of Christ's dead body, and will be raised from the dead together with the raising from the dead of Christ's body. Christ's resurrection from the dead - His dead body being quickened and then raised - is the guarantee of our resurrection when He returns, because being placed in Christ through being born of His Spirit, we share in His resurrection, through the power of His resurrection.

Your theology has corrupted this to be talking about the human spirit being 'raised to life' through the quickening of Christ's dead body and the raising to life of Christ's dead body INSTEAD OF through being born of the Spirit and placed in Christ.

So knowing that you will simply double-down in your reply with the same twisting of the gospel of being bodily raised to life and bodily resurrected with Christ's bodily resurrection through having been BORN of the Spirit of Christ and placed in Christ,

and knowing that you will once again falsely accuse me as you always do of not having "addressed the scriptures you quoted", this is my last reply to you in this thread about your theology which teaches that the human spirit was "raised to life from the dead".

There's not point in our going round in circles with you merely repeating the false assertions you make over and over again and me merely repeatedly quoting the same scriptures you keep quoting, and pointing out what they are actually saying.

Thanks for the exchange - and please bear in mind that when I talk about your corruption of the gospel of salvation in Christ by changing what the New Testament teaches, I'm talking about your belief in the man-made theology that has blinded you, not about your character or about you personally.

 

[Ritajanice]

Question, if Jesus Spirit wasn’t raised from the dead.

Then how can we become Born Of God’s seed?

Jesus was our card back to being reconciled back to God, our spirit is reconciled back to God, hence we must be Born Of The Spirit....

A Born Agains spirit ,has been Born into the Spirit of Christ.
.whose Spirit indwells our spirit?


Flesh gives birth to flesh.

Spirit gives birth to spirit.

Jesus died and rose from the dead....he was spiritually resurrected ,we the Born Again are part of that resurrection ,our spirit is very much Alive in Christ, our spirit has been raised with Christ.

We are in the world, we are not Of the world, we are saints and heirs with Christ...

Just my opinion/ belief

Short commentary...The Resurrection of Jesus ought not to be seen in physical terms, but as a new spiritual reality. It is important for Christians to be set free from the idea that the Resurrection was an extraordinary physical event which restored to life Jesus' original earthly body.

4But God, being [so very] rich in mercy, because of His great and wonderful love with which He loved us, 5even when we were [spiritually] dead and separated from Him because of our sins, He made us [spiritually] alive together with Christ(for by His grace—His undeserved favor and mercy

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Ps,we aren’t Alive in the body, we are Alive in our spirit ,that is where the Spirit resides...our body houses the Holy Spirit...

When we are Born Again only then are we free from eternal damnation/ wrath of God..

Becoming Born Again is by divine heart revelation. Just as Gods word says...

Again my opinion / thoughts/ beliefs.

 

[Zao is life]

Zoe is the noun - "life". Zao is the verb - "I live". The words aren't the same grammatically but the concept is.

If you live, then you have life. Life is the act of living.


This appears to be a circular argument. If you have previously decided that Jesus is talking about "life in the body" in the passage concerned, then the statement is true. But what if He isn't?

In John 5, He says that everyone who believes in Him has eternal life (present tense, i.e. here and now). Do you believe that we lose our eternal life when we die, and get it back at a later stage when we are resurrected? Seems as bit odd to me.


The word 'die' appears only once in this verse in my Greek text. The repetition in Hebrew is simply an idiom used for emphasis - Greek does this differently.

In the KJV with Strong's Concordance it appears twice

John 11:26 KJV with Srong's
And whosoever liveth [3588 2198: o zao: THE ZAO] and believeth in me shall apothanē [599: apothanē: die] not at all [3756 3361] apothanē [599: apothanē: die] - to the age [3588 165: o aiōna]. Believest thou this?

- but that is besides the point.

The New Testament does not ever refer to those whose bodies have died as "zao". It calls them dead, and it uses different words in reference to the dead.

Example:

I Corinthians 7:39:
The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth [zao]; but if her husband be dead [koimao], she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.

In every single verse where the word appears in the New Testament, the word záō (zAO) is referring either

(a) to the living God, the living Christ, and living water; or

(b) to those human beings who are alive in the body.

The verse is never talking about any human beings who have died | fallen asleep | are not alive and living (i.e in the body). zAO (living/being alive) is not speaking about "THE LIFE" (ZOE).

If you refuse to acknowledge even one distinction that the Biblical scriptures make between one thing and another when it's pointed out to you, then you will stop growing in your knowledge and understanding of the Word of God, because you have allowed man-made theology to partially blind you and stump your continued growth (which is the case, unfortunately, with all Amillennialists).

I wasn't asking you to believe me. I was pointing out the distinction scripture makes between the words zAO and zOE.

And though scripture makes a distinction between the words zAO and zOE, scripture does not make a distinction between the quickening [zōopoiéō] and resurrection of the dead human body (Romans 8:11) on one hand and the "quickening" or "raising to life" of the ('dead'?) human spirit on the other hand, because there no such distinction in the New Testament:

Before passages like Ephesians 2:4-6 have been corrupted and the meaning changed so as to force scripture to comply with a man-made theology, there is no such thing in the New Testament as the notion of the human spirit being "quickened" or "resurrected" or "raised to life" (apparently from being dead) before eternal life [zoe] - which is in Christ alone - was even given through being born of the Spirit.

The notion of the human spirit being "quickened" or "resurrected" or "raised to life" is man-made theology. The New Testament talks only of the human spirit having been born of the Spirit of God and placed in Christ, who is the last Adam and Son of man whose dead body was quickened and whose dead body was raised to life (resurrected).

Your own arguments are circular, and you do not even see it but I'm not asking you to believe me. I'm hoping that believers in Christ can be helped to make a distinction between man-made theology and what the gospel actually teaches us.

 

[rwb]

This topic is not about being born again, it is about the first resurrection as is mentioned in Rev. 20:5-6

We are born again through the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of Christ, not our bodily resurrection, but our spiritual new birth!

 

[rwb]

Right, but Amils have confessed that they believe Jesus alone being raised from the dead IS the first resurrection as is mentioned and defined in Rev. 20:5-6.


As far as I can understand,Jesus was the first to be resurrected...maybe @David in NJ can help me out....to be resurrected as Jesus was resurrected ,we must be Born Again....our spirit must be resurrected/regenerated/Born of the Spirit....which is a supernatural birth.

Our spirit is made alive through regeneration, and that is spiritual life we receive when we believe in the resurrection of Christ, for He is the first resurrection of the dead, and the resurrection and the life.

 

[rwb]

Revelation 20:5-6​

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King James Version​

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5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years

"This is the first resurrection" does NOT belong to the "rest of the dead"! It belongs to the blessed and holy "he that hath part in the first resurrection", "on such the second death hath no power". The dead are NOT blessed and holy, because they are not among the souls who have lived and reigned with Christ during their lifetimes a thousand years. They died in unbelief, that's why they are still called "the dead" and are the same dead that shall be called to stand before God to give account for what is found written in the books and the book of life who shall have their part in the second death, the lake of fire.

 

[rwb]

That’s not correct, Paul didn’t disagree with a resurrection taking place, only that “the resurrection” was past already. Whatever resurrection Hymenaeus and Philetus were talking about was not in question, it was only that that resurrection was past already. Therefore Paul seems to be in agreement that a resurrection did already take place, it just wasn’t the resurrection that Hymenaeus and Philetus were talking about.

I agree! A few verses earlier Paul tells us whose resurrection was past.

2 Timothy 2:8 (KJV) Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

We are born again through the first resurrection, that is the resurrection of Christ, not our bodily resurrection, but our spiritual new birth!

Here is the problem with that line of thinking. In the Old Testament men where born again of the Holy Spirit before Jesus came, died, and was raised back to life.

Yet they were not physically resurrected until after Jesus physically rose from the dead, becoming the first fruits OF the first resurrection. ( OF them that slept)

Being born again of the Spirit first is necessary to be a part OF the first bodily resurrection, but the first resurrection is not complete until ALL the body of Christ is raised from the dead.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

 

[rwb]

"Yes, we were resurrected with Christ,

I would argue we are spiritually regenerated because we partake of Christ's resurrection that is the first resurrection of the dead to immortal life. Because of, or through Christ's bodily resurrection, our spirit through His Spirit in us has been regenerated by the power of God.

 

[rwb]

Here is the problem with that line of thinking. In the Old Testament men where born again of the Holy Spirit before Jesus came, died, and was raised back to life.

Yet they were not physically resurrected until after Jesus physically rose from the dead, becoming the first fruits OF the first resurrection. ( OF them that slept)

Being born again of the Spirit first is necessary to be a part OF the first bodily resurrection, but the first resurrection is not complete until ALL the body of Christ is raised from the dead.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

The Old Testament saints were saved in the same way we are saved after the first advent of Christ. According to grace through faith. The Holy Spirit being with them, was not permanently in them, but Scripture shows us through John the Baptist the Spirit in those who believed the words the prophets spoke, that the Savior/Redeemer would come to save those who believed in Him.

John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Luke 1:13-15 (KJV) But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

 

[WPM]

I thought everyone agreed they were martyrs, even Amils? I thought, per your view they would be being martyred during the thousand years?

Per my view they would be martyred before the thousand years.

Per Amil how did they die to begin with if you don't agree they were martyred, for instance, because they refused to worship the beast Maybe it's just me, but if any saint is killed because they refuse to worship the beast, that sounds like they were martyred to me. Doesn't sound like they died of natural causes, or of old age, or even in their sleep, it sounds like they have been martyred to me.

Sorry. I meant verse 6.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The Holy Spirit being with them, was not permanently in them,

That’s nonsense. Jesus said God is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He is the God of the Living, not a god of the dead.

In order to be a part of the Body of Christ you have to have the Holy Spirit. In order to be a part of the first resurrection of the dead in Christ you must be bodily resurrected as is shown in Rev. 20:4-6.

 

[rwb]

On the one hand... the Bible DOES refer to the regeneration of new believers in terms of raising the dead to life. E.g. Ephesians 1-2

On the other... that isn't what Revelation 20 is about. The context demands that it's talking about martyrs, and even with Revelation's visions and symbols, there isn't a way to interpret martyrs to be new believers. That just doesn't work.

I believe the context of Rev 20 reveals the fate of ALL humanity. They are defined as two different types, those who are faithful unto death, and the rest of the dead who die in unbelief.

John writes of martyrs who have already lived and died in faith (a thousand years, symbolizing time from the first advent to the sounding of the last trumpet). Showing though they have been physically killed, physical death could not kill their soul. John proves this by telling us they are alive in heaven after death without physical form. That means they are not physically resurrected to life again, because John says they were beheaded. John would not say they were beheaded if he saw them as physically alive in the flesh. When they died for Christ, their spirit returned to God alive (soul) through the Spirit of Christ in them, because our spirit possesses eternal life the moment we are born again.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Then John makes a simple statement of fact regarding other people who also live and die during the same time period (a thousand symbolic years). While those who die for Christ are still living souls in heaven without physical form after physical death, the rest of the dead, those who also physically lived and died in unbelief are simply "the dead" who live and die in unbelief. When they die their spirit too returns to God in heaven, but the Scripture tells us the life (soul/spirit) of those who die in unbelief is said to be in silence and darkness, not a living soul (spirit) after physical death. John is showing the promise of Christ that they, as His spiritual body, all who live and die in Him shall NEVER die, because we have been born again of Christ's Spirit that will be with us until our bodily resurrection that shall be in the hour coming, when the last trumpet sounds and time shall be no longer.

Psalm 115:17 (KJV) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psalm 143:3 (KJV) For the enemy hath persecuted my soul; he hath smitten my life down to the ground; he hath made me to dwell in darkness, as those that have been long dead.

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

After saying the rest of the dead shall not live again until TIME, symbolized a thousand years expire, he writes "This is the first resurrection." John is NOT saying the rest of the dead are the first resurrection physically. Because the criteria for being alive in heaven after physical death is that we either have lived and reigned with Christ during this time symbolized a thousand years, or we shall reign with Him during this same period of time, symbolized a thousand years. So, when John writes "this is the first resurrection" he is writing of those he says are the "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." The rest of the dead that never live and reign with Christ during their lifetimes (a thousand symbolic years) are "the dead" that shall be called to stand before God to be judged according to what is found written in the books and the book of life.

Revelation 20:7 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 10:5-7 (KJV) And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[WPM]

Your confusion lies in the fact that Jesus' Spirit was not quickened or raised from the dead. His dead body was quickened and His dead body was raised,

No confusion at all on my part. I let the Bible speak for itself. Your confusion lies in the fact that you do not get that Jesus' Spirit did not need to be quickened because He was not born spiritually dead like you and me. Only His body needed quickened and raised from the dead, after He was identified with our sin.

 

[Ritajanice]

In order to be a part of the Body of Christ you have to have the Holy Spirit. In order to be a part of the first resurrection of the dead in Christ you must be bodily resurrected

Am I right In believing ,that you believe your body has been Born Again?

Or am I misunderstanding your post?

 

[WPM]

Your confusion lies in the fact that Jesus' Spirit was not quickened or raised from the dead. His dead body was quickened and His dead body was raised,

and the only way anyone can be quickened with Him is through spiritual birth, being born of His Spirit - which does not constitute a spiritual "resurrection" or the human spirit being "raised to life" but - as the New Testament teaches - occurs when THE LIFE (who is Christ, the Way, the Truth and the ZOE, the Life) breathes life into that human body - giving the soul which was dead LIFE, ie, spiritual BIRTH.

Your confusion is born out of the fact that you refuse to believe the New Testament gospel, which teaches that

BEING BORN OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD
PLACES AN INDIVIDUAL IN CHRIST

CAUSING THE INDIVIDUAL'S DEAD | DYING BODY
TO BE QUICKENED

WHICH WILL PRODUCE

THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY FROM DEATH
(WITH CHRIST'S RESURRECTION), WHEN HE RETURNS,

AND THE REGENERATION OF ALL THINGS.

THIS IS EVERLASTING LIFE
AND THIS IS THE NEW TESTAMENT'S TEACHING

ALL THANKS TO CHRIST TAKING ON A HUMAN BODY,
AND TAKING OUR SIN UPON HIMSELF,
BEARING THE SIN IN HIS OWN BODY ON THE CROSS
AND DYING, AND RISING AGAIN FROM THE DEAD,
HAVING BEEN QUICKENED BY THE SPIRIT​

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

Jesus' Spirit was not quickened or raised from the dead. His dead body was quickened and His dead body was raised, The Spirit of Christ who quickened His dead body and raised His dead body does not quicken a 'dead' human spirit that was born of God when THE LIFE of Christ was breathed into a human and the person is placed in Christ.

(i) The word zoopoieo (quickening, being made alive) is being applied to the mortal body in the above verses (and ALWAYS applies only to the dead body).

(ii) The words egeiro, synegeiro and anastasis are always referring to the resurrection of the body in the New Testament.

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

Christ's body was quickened, and His body was raised.

Colossians 3:3:
For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God.

Colossians 2:12-13 tells Christians that we have been "buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are all risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him (syzōopoiéō), having forgiven you all trespasses." -- Colossians 2:12-13.

The New Testament teaches without any of the ambiguity your theology introduced to the gospel that through being born of the Spirit our DEAD BODIES are quickened with the quickening of Christ's dead body, and will be raised from the dead together with the raising from the dead of Christ's body. Christ's resurrection from the dead - His dead body being quickened and then raised - is the guarantee of our resurrection when He returns, because being placed in Christ through being born of His Spirit, we share in His resurrection, through the power of His resurrection.

Your theology has corrupted this to be talking about the human spirit being 'raised to life' through the quickening of Christ's dead body and the raising to life of Christ's dead body INSTEAD OF through being born of the Spirit and placed in Christ.

So knowing that you will simply double-down in your reply with the same twisting of the gospel of being bodily raised to life and bodily resurrected with Christ's bodily resurrection through having been BORN of the Spirit of Christ and placed in Christ,

and knowing that you will once again falsely accuse me as you always do of not having "addressed the scriptures you quoted", this is my last reply to you in this thread about your theology which teaches that the human spirit was "raised to life from the dead".

There's not point in our going round in circles with you merely repeating the false assertions you make over and over again and me merely repeatedly quoting the same scriptures you keep quoting, and pointing out what they are actually saying.

Thanks for the exchange - and please bear in mind that when I talk about your corruption of the gospel of salvation in Christ by changing what the New Testament teaches, I'm talking about your belief in the man-made theology that has blinded you, not about your character or about you personally.

Stop twisting the meaning. This is talking about salvation here. The resurrection in view in Colossians 2:12-13 is current and spiritual, not physical and future.

Colossians 2:10-14 says, “ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ‘ye are risen with him’ [Gr. sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised [Gr. egeiro] him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened [Gr. suzoopoieo] together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

We are looking at regeneration here, which happens when our dead spirits are spiritually quickening by the Holy Spirit and raised from a spiritual grave onto life everlasting, producing a new birth. Simple!

No need to explain this away, unless you are trying to support false doctrine.