Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion

[Zao is life]

The only "past" resurrection is the resurrection of Jesus. It's a documented historical event.
But Jesus also refers to a present resurrection: "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life." (John 5:24) "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in Me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in Me will never die." (John 11:25,26) This is the first resurrection referred to in Revelation 20.

Then there will be a future resurrection for everyone: "A time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and come out - those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned." (John 5:28,29)

This is what the verses you quote mean using the Greek words and what the Greek words mean, before the verses are translated into English:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life (zoe) [zOE] and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life (zoe)." (John 5:24)

John 1:2 & 4
The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men.

1 John 5:11-12
God has given to us eternal life [zōḗ], and this life [zōḗ] is in His Son. He that has the Son has (eternal) life; and he that has not the Son of God has not (eternal) life [zōḗ].

John 5:26
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life [zōḗ]: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 5:26
For as the Father hath life [zōḗ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself.

John 5:25-26 & 28-29
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live/be alive in the body [záō: zAO: means to be alive in the body]. For as the Father hath (eternal) life [zōḗ: zOE] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself.

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life [zōḗ]; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 11:23-26:
"Jesus said to her, Your brother shall anístēmi (rise again bodily). Martha said to Him, I know that he shall anístēmi in the anástasis (The Resurrection of the body) at the last day.

Jesus said unto her, I am The Anástasis (The Resurrection of the body), AND (I am) the (eternal) life [zoe]:

he that believes in me, though he were dead (though the body had died, as Lazarus' had), yet shall he live/be alive in the body (zao i.e zAO as different to zOE: Zao means to be alive in the body: In every New Testament verse the word zao is mentioned, it means to be alive in the body) - regardless of the false claims of some Amillennialists who cannot produce verses where it means zoe [zOE] or something else.

.. And whosoever lives (zAO: to be alive in the body) AND believes in me dying shall not die - to the age (aionos). Do you believe this? (John 11:23-26).

You have mixed up the words zoe and the word zao in the above passage, conflating the two. The context of John 11:23-26 and the meaning of the Greek words does not produce the theology you speak of, not even in verse 26.

Verse 26 is speaking of those who had been bodily resurrected from the dead at the last day because it's speaking of those who are alive in the body (zao) not ever dying:

Genesis 2:17: Literal meaning of the Hebrew, according to KJV notes:
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof dying thou shalt surely (most definitelty) die.

The word "die" appears twice, as it does in the Greek of John 11:26:

John 11:26: Literal meaning of the Greek:
And whosoever is alive in the body (zao) AND believeth in me, dying shall surely not die - to the age. Believest thou this?

It means "shall never die" and it's speaking of those who had been bodily resurrected from the dead at the last day.

All the Amil theology regarding Revelation 20:4-6 is based on conflating different Greek words meaning different things and conflating passages like the above passages with Revelation 20:4-6. John saw the souls of those who had been beheaded alive in their bodies (zao) and he called it the first resurrection of the body (anastasis). The word used for "lived" is not zoe [zOE] - eternal life in Christ, it's zao - to be living/alive in the body.

 

[PinSeeker]

IOW, you don't believe the rapture and the last trump(1 Cor 15:51-57) precedes the great white throne judgment?

Yes, I do... except... there is no "rapture." Jesus's return will certainly be a rapturous event, but not a "rapture" in the sense of what many think it to be; no one will be... "removed"... <smile>.

According to Revelation 20:11-15, everyone standing there in front of Christ are described as the dead. No one, once what is recorded in 1 Cor 15:51-57 has happened to them would still be considered the dead. That is ludicrous that anyone that has put on bodily immortality is still being described as the dead. Bodily immortality and being in a dead state is a contradiction, not the same thing instead.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Ahhh, well let me ask you this, David: When this final Judgment scene opens in Revelation 20:11, and Jesus is sitting on this "great white throne," do you see anything there to suggest that only He and "the dead" are there... that no one else is present? <smile> In light of what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-33...

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will place the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left"​

...and John 5:28-29...

"...an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment"...​

and what Paul says in Romans 2:6-8...

"He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury"...​

...can you not at least acknowledge the possibility that the righteous, the ones not dead in their sin but alive in Christ, are also there? <smile> On top of that, David, what happens immediately after the Judgment, starting in Revelation 21:1? If only "the dead" are present with Jesus in Revelation 20:11-15, then is Jesus the only one to see and enter into the new Heaven and new Earth? <smile> In terms of 1 Corinthians 15:51-57, will there be no one there to "be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet... put on the imperishable..." to rejoice and exult in "the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ"...? <smile>

Grace and peace to you, David.

 

[Davidpt]

All the Amil theology regarding Revelation 20:4-6 is based on conflating different Greek words meaning different things and conflating passages like the above passages with Revelation 20:4-6. John saw the souls of those who had been beheaded alive in their bodies (zao) and he called it the first resurrection of the body (anastasis). The word used for "lived" is not zoe [zOE] - eternal life in Christ, it's zao - to be living/alive in the body.

Wonder what Amils think is gained by first seeing the souls of them, where their souls are obviously already alive to begin with, then when they are living with Christ, thus the first resurrection, they are still in the same state after the resurrection they were in before the resurrection, a disembodied state? IOW, when John sees the souls of them they are in a disembodied state. Then when he sees them living with Christ they are still in a disembodied state. Nothing has changed whatsoever about their state. In their case, meaning these martyrs, the first resurrection accomplished zero.

 

[PinSeeker]

All the Amil theology regarding Revelation 20:4-6 is based on conflating different Greek words meaning different things and conflating passages like the above passages with Revelation 20:4-6.

With all due respect:

John saw the souls of those who had been beheaded alive in their bodies (zao) and he called it the first resurrection of the body (anastasis). The word used for "lived" is not zoe [zOE] - eternal life in Christ, it's zao - to be living/alive in the body.

In a sense, this is correct; we all from birth are dead in sin (Romans 5; Ephesians 2), having a heart of stone rather than flesh (Ezekiel 19, 36), and in need of new birth by the Spirit and thus being in Christ. Our spirits must be resurrected; otherwise, we are destined for the "second death," which is permanent and... eternal.

Grace and peace to you, Zao.

 

[PinSeeker]

Wonder what Amils think is gained by first seeing the souls of them, where their souls are obviously already alive to begin with, then when they are living with Christ, thus the first resurrection, they are still in the same state after the resurrection they were in before the resurrection, a disembodied state?

We (Christians) are spiritually resurrected in this life, David ~ made alive with Christ and raised up with Him and seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. Our physical resurrection will come at the end of the age, when Christ returns.

IOW, when John sees the souls of them they are in a disembodied state. Then when he sees them living with Christ they are still in a disembodied state. Nothing has changed whatsoever about their state. In their case, the first resurrection accomplished zero.

Goodness gracious. Our "first resurrection" ensures our future resurrection to eternal life (as opposed to the resurrection unto judgment), wherein our spirits will be reunited with our physical body.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Can you explain in what way this would equal them overthrowing the faith of some?

Well, if people are taught the first resurrection is past, which is the resurrection of life, then all they have to look forward to is the second resurrection. They are also being taught the thousand years reigning with Christ is also past.

Another thing is they are causing people to believe in lies, and be deceived, which is never a good thing. They are also perverting the words of God by adding to and taking away from the meaning of the first resurrection as is defined in Rev. 20:4-6.

Revelation 22:15
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 22:18-19

King James Version

​

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

. The "this" at the end of verse 5 refers to the whole thousand years, and over the course of that thousand years, all of us Christians take part in it, each individually at his or her own appointed time, as I said, when, having been born again of the Spirit, they/we are raised/resurrected in Christ from death in sin ~ which is described vividly in Ephesians 2:3-7 (above). This is the first resurrection.

Grace and peace to you.

Wrong, the bodily resurrection of those martyred saints happens in an instant at the last day. You say they are being gathered during the thousand years individually each in their own time. But the scriptures say they resurrected before the thousand years begins.

They shall be is also a forward looking statement….

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

 

[Davidpt]

Ahhh, well let me ask you this, David: When this final Judgment scene opens in Revelation 20:11, and Jesus is sitting on this "great white throne," do you see anything there to suggest that only He and "the dead" are there... that no one else is present? <smile> In light of what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-33...

"When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. Before Him will be gathered all the nations, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And He will place the sheep on His right, but the goats on the left"​

For one thing, I don't take the sheep and goats judgment to be meaning the great white throne judgment to begin with. Anyone paying attention to the context leading up this judgment, and has even minimal discernment, should easily note that the context was involving profitable and unprofitable servants of His.

I can't speak for anyone else, but IMO context is absolutely important if one is expected to interpret something correctly. In context the goats are meaning the unprofitable servants in the body of Christ. IOW, they equal not once saved always saved(NOSAS) .

Therefore, per my POV your point is moot.

But I will say this though, and I expect even Premils are likely going to disagree with some of this, but the fact Daniel 12:2 records a resurrection event where it gives the impression that many rather than every single one of them, that sleep in the dust of the ground, shall rise at the time, and that it says some to everlasting contempt, I take that to maybe mean the unprofitable servants of His during His ascension since some of them would already be dead when He returns.

IOW, He raises these as well except these are not meaning every single lost person since the beginning of time, these are only meaning His unprofitable servants during the church era during His ascension, thus the goats per the sheep and goats judgment.

Not to mention, Revelation 20:11-15 does not even remotely depict, even if not meaning in the literal sense, which it likely isn't, yet that is beside the point, a dividing up of the ones standing before Him, where some are standing on His right side, the others on his left side.

 

[PinSeeker]

...the bodily resurrection of those martyred saints happens in an instant at the last day.

Well, right... all of us will be bodily resurrected, yes, in an instant at the last day. Well... except for those who are still alive at the time of His return, of course.

You say they are being gathered during the thousand years individually each in their own time.

Yes.

But the scriptures say they resurrected before the thousand years begins.

No, they do not. As I have said, this vision was given to John a long time ago, but even in his time, he knew he was being shown what was then to come, but in the context that it had already happened.

They shall be is also a forward looking statement….

Yes, and from the above "already happened" context, we should then see this statement as a sort of loop back to the start of the thousand years to a summation statement saying, in effect, "this shall be what happens over the thousand years." This is a vision given to John by Jesus, who is God, and thus speaking from a position of what we call the "eternal now." He is outside of time, so to Him, it's already happened, but from John's personal perspective, it's what will happen until Jesus returns. Jesus is showing John ~ and us ~ that even though from our perspective it is still an ongoing, thing, we know ~ even though it may not look like it right now to us ~ Jesus is coming back, and... He wins. This is what Revelation is about.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Zao is life]

With all due respect:

In a sense, this is correct; we all from birth are dead in sin (Romans 5; Ephesians 2), having a heart of stone rather than flesh (Ezekiel 19, 36), and in need of new birth by the Spirit and thus being in Christ. Our spirits must be resurrected; otherwise, we are destined for the "second death," which is permanent and... eternal.

Grace and peace to you, Zao.

Well thanks for making me laugh. Well needed. But of course in the Bible it does not speak of the spiritual resurrection you speak of.

(Strongs Hebrew Dictionary): H1961 hayah: To exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass.

BORN:

Genesis 1:1 & 26-27, and Genesis 2:7 tell us that when YHVH God created [bara] man,

(A) He formed [yatsar] man of the dust of the ground; and

(B) breathed (naphach) into his nostrils the breath (nshamah) of life (chay); and

(C) the man became [H1961 haya] a living (chay) soul (nephesh).

"The Spirit breathes where He desires, and you hear His voice,
but you do not know from where He comes, and where He goes;
so is everyone who is born [γεννάω gennáō] of the Spirit."
-- John 3:8.

"That which is born [gennáō] of the flesh (body) is flesh,
and that which is born [gennáō] of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6).​

Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a man is born [gennáō] from above | from the first (anothen), he cannot see the kingdom of God. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born [gennáō] from above | from the first (anothen)." -- John 3:3 & 6-7.

"And Jacob begat [gennao] Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ." -- Matthew 1:16

"Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived [gennao] in her is of the Holy Ghost." -- Matthew 1:20

Note: Jesus, the Man named Yeshua HaMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) did not need to be be "born again". He was born of God from the first, the beginning. He was not gennao (begotten) of a human father.

Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born [gennáō] from above | from the first (anothen)."

Strongs Greek 509 anothen
from 507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top. see GREEK for 507

So the Greek word gennao can refer to a human life which is conceived, as well as to a human life which is born. Whether conceived or born, what takes place is not a (dead) human life being "regenerated or resurrected or quickened": it's conceived or born from the first, the beginning.

From the first, the beginning

"It seemed good to me also, following all things accurately from the very first [anothen], to write to you in order, most excellent Theophilus" -- Luke 1:3

"My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews; Which knew me from the beginning [anothen], if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee." -- Acts 26:4-5

"But now, after that all of you have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn all of you again to the weak and beggarly elements, unto which all of you desire again [anothen - from the beginning] to be in bondage?" -- Galatians 4:9

From the top:-

Matthew 27:51 (parallel Mark 15:38). "And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in two from the top [anothen] to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent." -- Matthew 27:51.

From above (example):

"He that comes from above [anothen] is above [epano] all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaks of the earth: he that comes from heaven is above [epano] all." -- John 3:31.

Strongs Greek 1883 epano
up above, i.e. over or on (of place, amount, rank, etc.):--above, more than, (up-)on, over.

To be reborn or born again does not mean to be born twice - it means to be born anew, from the beginning. We are born once of the flesh (the natural body), and once of the Spirit.

Nor is the quickening of Ephesians 2:4-6 speak of the quickening and raising of the human spirit. Christ's Spirit did not die. His dead body was quickened and His dead body was raised (egeiro), as in Romans 8:10-11:

"If Christ's Spirit is in you,

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us,

Even when we were dead in sins,

(1) He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved);

(2) and has raised us up together (synegeírō)

and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).

Ephesians 2:5 has been translated into English by Bible translators as "we were dead in sins", but Colossians 2:13; Colossians 3:3; and Romans 8:10 tell us that we are dead in sins:-

Colossians 2:12-13 tells Christians that we have been "buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are all risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him (syzōopoiéō), having forgiven you all trespasses." -- Colossians 2:12-13.

Colossians 3:3:
For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God.

"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead -- for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]." (1 Corinthians 15:20-22).

Before Amil theology has changed the meaning of passage after passage of scripture to attempt to force scripture to comply with Amil theology, there is no mention of your 'spiritual' resurrection, or the human spirit being 'raised' to life in the New Testament - there is only mention of the human spirit becoming (haya) when God breathes the everlasting life (zoe) that only God possesses in Himself, into a human being. It's the same word used when God revealed His name ("I am") to Moses:

1 John 5:11-12
God has given to us eternal life [zōḗ], and this life [zōḗ] is in His Son. He that has the Son has (eternal) life; and he that has not the Son of God has not (eternal) life [zōḗ].

How does one have the Son of God in you?

Only through being born (gennao) of the Spirit when He breathes that spirit-life into you. Not from being 'spiritually raised' from anything, let alone the dead.

John 1:2 & 4
The Word was in the beginning with God. In Him was life [zōḗ], and the life [zōḗ] was the light of men.

John 5:26
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life [zōḗ]: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 5:26
For as the Father hath life [zōḗ] in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life [zōḗ] in himself.

In the New Testament,

BEING BORN ANEW OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD
PLACES AN INDIVIDUAL IN CHRIST

CAUSING THE INDIVIDUAL'S DEAD | DYING BODY
TO BE QUICKENED

WHICH WILL PRODUCE

THE RESURRECTION OF THE BODY FROM DEATH
(WITH CHRIST'S RESURRECTION), WHEN HE RETURNS,

AND THE REGENERATION OF ALL THINGS.

THIS IS EVERLASTING LIFE
AND THIS IS THE NEW TESTAMENT'S TEACHING

ALL THANKS TO CHRIST TAKING ON A HUMAN BODY,
AND TAKING OUR SIN UPON HIMSELF,
BEARING THE SIN IN HIS OWN BODY ON THE CROSS
AND DYING, AND RISING AGAIN FROM THE DEAD,
HAVING BEEN QUICKENED BY THE SPIRIT​

 

[PinSeeker]

For one thing, I don't take the sheep and goats judgment to be meaning the great white throne judgment to begin with.

Well, that's a problem. :) Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15 are descriptions of the same event.

Anyone paying attention to the context leading up this judgment, and has even minimal discernment, should easily note that the context was involving profitable and unprofitable servants of His.

Hmmm... well, in a sense, as human beings, we should all serve Him and worship Him. So in that sense, yes, agreed.

But some/many ~ and I think you'll agree with this ~ do not... will not. As Paul says in Romans 1, these folks exchange the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things... exchange the truth about God for a lie and worship and serve the creature rather than the Creator, and for that reason God gives them up to dishonorable passions, to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. These are the "unprofitable servants," the "goats," the "tares," the wicked... unbelievers, the unrepentant. And they are the ones who will not stand in the congregation of the righteous (Psalm 1), the ones who will be on Jesus's left during the final Judgment, and immediately afterwards will depart into judgment for eternity, having been resurrected to just that. It's a terrifying, horrifying truth, but truth it is. <shudder>

I can't speak for anyone else, but IMO context is absolutely important if one is expected to interpret something correctly.

Sure it is.

In context the goats are meaning the unprofitable servants in the body of Christ.

No, Jesus says ~ and I quote ~ "(I) will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats..." The context is about separation, and about separating the... well, the good from the bad, the acceptable from the unacceptable.

IOW, they equal not once saved always saved(NOSAS) .

What is faith, David? Hebrews 11:1 defines it for us. Who does this assurance and conviction come from, David? Where do we get it? For those Christians who don't believe in their very present eternal security in Christ, that, to me, calls into question their Christianity.

Therefore, per my POV your point is moot.

Understood. I don't think I'd be quite so... well, I'll just say blunt... as that, but, well, right back atcha. Ah, I wouldn't call your POV or your point "moot," but rather... well, you know. :)

But I will say this though, and I expect even Premils are likely going to disagree with some of this, but the fact Daniel 12:2 records a resurrection event where it gives the impression that many rather than every single one of them, that sleep in the dust of the ground, shall rise at the time, and that it says some to everlasting contempt, I take that to maybe mean the unprofitable servants of His during His ascension since some of them would already be dead when He returns.

Hm. Daniel 12:2 ~ "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt" ~ is absolutely equivalent to John 5:28-29 ~ "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear His voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment".

IOW, He raises these as well except these are not meaning every single lost person since the beginning of time, these are only meaning His unprofitable servants during the church era during His ascension, thus the goats per the sheep and goats judgment.

Everyone will be resurrected at the end of the age, some to eternal life, and the others to judgment.

Revelation 20:11-15 does not even remotely depict, even if not meaning in the literal sense, which it likely isn't, yet that is beside the point, a dividing up of the ones standing before Him, where some are standing on His right side, the others on his left side.

As I said in my previous post, all those explicitly spoken of in Revelation 20:11-15 are the ones on His left. But there are certainly those on His right there also, they are just not explicitly spoken of in any of those verses... because they already have been explicitly spoken of in Revelation 20:4-6. :) But they will be there... and they will enter into the new Heaven and new Earth in Revelation 21:1 and following.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[WPM]

Well thanks for making me laugh. Well needed. But of course in the Bible it does not speak of the spiritual resurrection you speak of.

If you would simply accept what the Scriptures are actually teaching then you would quickly see that what you are claiming is false.

The only way that we can transition from death to life (both spiritually and physically) is by way of resurrection. There is no other way! This is demonstrated many times in Scripture in regard to both spiritual and physical resurrection.

Two resurrections result for the believer from Christ’s one resurrection. Man needs both spiritually redeemed and physically redeemed. When one gets saved they are spiritually redeemed. But they are not physically redeemed until resurrection day. His “first resurrection” secured both resurrections for those who will put their faith in Christ.

Romans 6:3-6 says, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up [Gr. egeiro] from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection [Gr. anastasis]: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”

There are two Greek words used in Romans 6:3-10 that are used to describe the resurrection of Christ, and that are significantly in turn purposely equated to the believer and the new birth experience; they are egeiro (Strong’s 1453) and anastasis (Strong’s 386). Such a correlation between these two diverse types of resurrection (physical and spiritual) is only secured through Christ’s sinless life, atoning death and glorious resurrection, enabling the believer to walk in resurrection power and “newness of life.” The believer here is therefore supernaturally transferred from a condition of death into one of life. This undoubtedly relates (1) to a spiritual state, and, (2), to the here in now. It cannot relate to the physical resurrection which is still future and which occurs at the second coming of Christ.

The first word egeiro (Strong’s 1453) is used many times throughout the New Testament to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. These references are found in Matthew 14:2, 16:21, 17:9, 23, 20:19, 26:32, 27:63, 64, 28:6, 7, Mark 14:28, 16:6, 14, Luke 1:69, 9:22, 24:6, 34, John 2:19, 20, 22, 21:14, Acts 3:15, 4:10, 5:30, 10:40, 13:30, 37, Romans 4:24, 25, 6:4, 9, 7:4, 8:11, 34, 10:9, 1 Corinthians 6:14, 15:4, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 20, 2 Corinthians 4:14, 5:15, Galatians 1:1, Ephesians 1:20, Colossians 2:12, 1 Thessalonians 1:10 and 1 Peter 1:21.

Similarly, the other Greek word anastasis (Strong’s 386), which is identified several times in Scripture with the new birth spiritual resurrection is also used several times to describe the Lord’s physical resurrection. It is derived from the root word anistemi (Strong’s 450). These are outlined in Mark 8:31, 9:31, 10:34, 16:9, Luke 18:33, 24:7, 26, John 20:9, Acts 2:24, 31, 32, 3:26, 4:2, 33, 10:41, 13:33, 34, 17:3, 18, 26:23, Romans 15:12, Philippians 3:10 1 Thessalonians 4:14, 1 Peter 1:3, 3:21.

The same two Greek words that are repeatedly employed to describe Christ’s physical resurrection from the dead are also used in Ephesians 5:14 to describe the new birth experience of the believer. The sinner being commanded: “Awake [Gr. egeiro] thou that sleepest, and arise [Gr. anastasis] from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light” (Ephesians 5:14).

The resurrection portrayed here is again not a physical resurrection, but, a spiritual resurrection in which the recipient (the sinner) receives the joy of salvation. Through this spiritual resurrection, the believer receives the “light” of God and is therefore spared the awful sentence of eternal wrath. The verb “arise” in this text specifically relates to salvation and is a metaphor describing the spiritual resurrection that Christians undergo when they are lifted from the grave of sin. It also demonstrates the blessing that follows this resurrection. The true child of God receives the blessed light of God’s dear Son the Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 2:34 also records, “Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again [Gr. anastasis] (or resurrecting) of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against.”

Matthew Henry explains in relation to this passage, “He (Jesus) is set for the rising again of many in Israel, that is, for the conversion of many to God that are dead and buried in sin, and for the consolation of many in God that are sunk and lost in sorrow and despair. Those whom he is set for the fall of may be the same with those whom he is set for the rising again of. He is set eis ptosin kai anastasin - for their fall, in order to their rising again; to humble and abase them, and bring them off from all confidence in themselves, that they may be exalted by relying on Christ; he wounds and then heals, Paul falls, and rises again”

The believer is raised from the grave of his sin and spiritual death at conversion, which of necessity must be a spiritual resurrection. Paul says in 2 Corinthians 1:8-10, “For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life: But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth [Gr. egeiro] the dead: Who delivered us (past tense) from so great a death, and doth deliver (present tense): in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us (future tense).”

This whole passage is concentrated upon the great eternal provision of spiritual deliverance. The word “raiseth” in this reading is a present active verb, therefore it is talking about a resurrection that is happening now, rather than the future physical resurrection. This is obviously speaking of spiritual resurrection, because it alone has been ongoing since Christ’s first (physical) resurrection. This will, of course, culminate with the general physical resurrection at His return.

The same word repeatedly applied to Christ’s physical resurrection in the New Testament – egeiro – is here again used spiritually to describe the spiritual resurrection of the believer from the reality of spiritual death. It shows a present realisation and victorious triumph over that state in this testimony of Paul. This reading does not at all indicate that the believer will not experience natural death, no, but rather, that he wouldn’t experience spiritual death. It positively outlines that through the spiritual (or first) resurrection the believer is rescued from entering into the awful realisation of the second death (eternal punishment).

 

[WPM]

Well thanks for making me laugh. Well needed. But of course in the Bible it does not speak of the spiritual resurrection you speak of.

Colossians 2:10-14 says, “ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ‘ye are risen with him’ [Gr. sunegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised [Gr. egeiro] him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened [Gr. suzoopoieo] together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.”

This explicit passage describes the act of salvation as a resurrection feat. Moreover, the raising of the forgiven child of God in resurrection power in salvation is in turn carefully identified with, and connected to, Christ’s glorious resurrection. It confirms that our hearts “are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ” in salvation, and likens this supernatural work to a death, burial and resurrection. This reading shows how the child of God is “buried with him,” “quickened together with him,” and finally “risen with him.”

The wording relating to this spiritual resurrection – “ye are risen with him” – is translated from the Greek word sunegeiro (Strong’s 4891), which is derived from the coupling of two other Greek words sun (Strong’s 4862) – denoting union and togetherness, and egeiro (Strong’s 1453), which means to awaken or resurrect from the dead. This word egeiro is constantly used in the New Testament in reference to Christ’s physical resurrection.

Also, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the Greek word suzoopoieo (Strong’s 4806), which is derived from combining the words sun (Strong’s 4862) with zoopoíeo (Strong’s 2227), meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. Hence, we can see the deep meaning of this word in the aforementioned passage and the essential work that is perfected in the penitent sinner in regeneration.

Many new birth passages in Scripture are surrounded in resurrection terminology. Notwithstanding, they are not in any way referring to a physical resurrection, although, often, using the same type of language that accompanies literal ones. These references repeatedly describe spiritually dead men being spiritually made alive by being first spiritually quickened and then spiritually resurrected from the grave of their sin. This reading plainly outlines how the penitent sinner is raised with the exact same supernatural power that raised Christ at His resurrection, saying, “ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

Colossians 3:1-4 goes on to add, “If ‘ye then be risen with’ [Gr. sunegeiro] Christ (speaking in the present tense about those who have experienced spiritual resurrection in Christ), seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear (speaking of the second coming), then shall ye also appear with him in glory (referring to the physical resurrection which is future tense).”

There are two distinct resurrections outlined in this reading, the first being spiritual and the second being physical. The initial resurrection of necessity sees a spiritual change, whereas, the second resurrection of necessity requires a physical change. Interestingly, the Greek word sunegeiro is again used here to describe the spiritual resurrection of the penitent sinner through union with Christ. No one could surely dismiss the current reality of the resurrection outlined at the beginning of the above passage. Moreover, those that have experienced the aforementioned resurrection are then instructed to “seek” and “set their affection” upon “those things which are above” – spiritual actions that are to be performed in this scene of time. The key to experiencing the reality of this current resurrected life is found in the concluding part of the reading that our earthly life is “hid with Christ in God.”

Ephesians 2:1-6 also says, “you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ [Gr. suzoopoieo] with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath ‘raised us up together’ [Gr. sunegeiro] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”

The same two Greek words found in Colossians 2:10-14 are also used in this reading to describe the spiritual resurrection. Again, the word rendered “quickened” here in Ephesians 2 is the Greek word suzoopoieo, which indicates a uniting to Christ in mystical union by means of being spiritually revitalized and made alive. The Greek word sunegeiro carries the meaning of union with Christ through resurrection. It is also in the aorist active demonstrating that it relates to the present. All sane theologians know that is not therefore not talking about physical resurrection.

Romans 4:17 says, speaking of that great father of the faith Abraham, “(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth [Gr. zoopoieo] the dead, and calleth those things which be not (unbelieving Gentiles) as though they were (the people of God).”

Again, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the original word zoopoieo meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. It is the same word used in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 3:1, only it is prefixed there by the Greek word sun in those passages. This passage is describing how God breathed spiritual life into the once darkened Gentile nations, and brought them into a personal relationship with the living God. Those within the nations that received God’s provision for sin and uncleanness were then immediately brought from a condition of spiritual death unto a state of spiritual life through the precious work of Christ at Calvary. This quickening of the Gentiles is therefore plainly not just a future hope but a joyous present reality.

In the new birth, the nature of Christ is imputed into the believer thus raising him up from a spiritual grave into a real living communion with God. I John 3:14 succinctly explains, “We know that we have passed from death unto life.” How? This text makes it clear that the death that is conquered here in the-here-and-now is assuredly not physical but spiritual death. The sinner that believes (and is thus born again of the Spirit of God) has entered into the realisation of the first resurrection in this life and will one day be physically raised at the second resurrection unto life.

Conclusion

We have seen how the Greek word anastasis (Strongs 386), used in Revelation 20 to describe the first resurrection, is related to the new birth in several New Testament passages. We have seen how its root meaning anistemi (Strongs 450) is also related to the new birth experience. We have seen how other similar resurrection words like egeiro (Strong’s 1453) and zoopoíeo (Strong’s 2227) are also identified with the first spiritual resurrection.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well thanks for making me laugh. Well needed.

You're welcome. I love that GIF. :)

But of course in the Bible it does not speak of the spiritual resurrection you speak of.

In your opinion. I know. :)

Grace and peace to you.

To be reborn or born again does not mean to be born twice - it means to be born anew, from the beginning. We are born once of the flesh (the natural body), and once of the Spirit.

Agreed. So you agree in spiritual rebirth, but not spiritual resurrection. Very curious.

Nor is the quickening of Ephesians 2:4-6 speak of the quickening and raising of the human spirit.

Hmmm... Well it's a raising of some kind, so if not of the human spirit, is it a physical raising? Surely you don't think that...

Christ's Spirit did not die.

Of course not...

(1) your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.

(2) Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." (Romans 8:10-11).

Yes, we Christians are being quickened through His Spirit who lives in us, absolutely. And this is what Paul is saying to the Philippians in chapter 2 of that epistle: "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." In this sense we are being quickened; we often call this sanctification, which is the ongoing process of God, by His Spirit over the course of our lives, conforming us more and more to the image of Christ. As Paul says just previous to that, He Who began a good work in us will bring to completion at the day of Christ. But there is also a sense in which we have already been quickened, in that we were born again of the Spirit, and that's a once-and-for-all thing. Both are true.

Ephesians 2:5 has been translated into English by Bible translators as "we were dead in sins", but Colossians 2:13; Colossians 3:3; and Romans 8:10 tell us that we are dead in sins:-

Paul says in Ephesians 2 that "we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." It is in this sense... this is what it means that... "we were dead in our trespasses (sins)." Zao, my friend, Paul is writing to live people, telling them that they were ~ but no longer are ~ dead in this sense. So he's obviously not speaking about the physical there, he cannot possibly be. And neither does he change his context in the very next two or three sentences he writes, that "made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." He's speaking of our spirit through that whole passage; he does not change his context.

Colossians 2:12-13 tells Christians that we have been "buried with him in baptism, wherein also you are all risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, has he quickened together with him (syzōopoiéō), having forgiven you all trespasses." -- Colossians 2:12-13.

Colossians 3:3:
For ye are dead, and your life [zōḗ] is hid with Christ in God.

Ditto above.

...there is no mention of your 'spiritual' resurrection, or the human spirit being 'raised' to life in the New Testament

It's all throughout the New Testament... Paul's letters and Peter's, too, most notably 1 Peter 1:3-5 ~ "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

And in the Old, actually, most notably in Ezekiel ii:19-20 ~ "I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them. And they shall be my people, and I will be their God" ~ and 36:26-27 ~ "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."

No, I'm not ~ nor are "Amils"... or, well, at least "good Amils" :) ~ as you said before, "conflating the new birth with the resurrection." Our spiritual resurrection to life in Christ is the direct and immediate result of our spiritual birth in the Spirit... and it will have its end result, ensuring that our physical resurrection at the end of the age will be to eternal life rather than to judgment.

Grace and peace to you, Zao.

 

[ewq1938]

I have noticed similar teachings about the antichrist/man of sin etc.

Doctrines like Pre-trib teach the church will be gone, so they don't worry about the antichrist or look for any of the signs of his arrival.

Various forms of Preterism including Amillennialism teach the antichrist already came in the past so there is no need to watch for him now.

Other doctrines teach that the antichrist isn't a singular man, or that denominations like the RCC and it's Papacy are the antichrist which is a mis-identification of the last and final antichrist and antichrist type system.

All false doctrines teach some version of doctrine where it's adherents need not worry about or watch for the not-yet-here antichrist. Seems like a great thing for satan to introduce into the churches so his antichrist (whoever he is) can slip right in and deceive those not watching. The antichrist is also known as a false christ and that is the most dangerous thing not to be knowledgeable about in the endtimes because of the apostasia (the Apostasy).

So, not watching for the antichrist or not believing in a singular future AC or thinking something/someone else is the antichrist can result in one being deceived and possibly committing Apostasy.

That is extremely dangerous. Beware!

 

[WPM]

Various forms of Preterism including Amillennialism teach the antichrist already came in the past so there is no need to watch for him now.

Other doctrines teach that the antichrist isn't a singular man, or that denominations like the RCC and it's Papacy are the antichrist which is a mis-identification of the last and final antichrist and antichrist type system.

All false doctrines teach some version of doctrine where it's adherents need not worry about or watch for the not-yet-here antichrist. Seems like a great thing for satan to introduce into the churches so his antichrist (whoever he is) can slip right in and deceive those not watching. The antichrist is also known as a false christ and that is the most dangerous thing not to be knowledgeable about in the endtimes because of the apostasia (the Apostasy).

So, not watching for the antichrist or not believing in a singular future AC or thinking something/someone else is the antichrist can result in one being deceived and possibly committing Apostasy.

That is extremely dangerous. Beware!

How about telling the truth for once about Amil? Amils believe in a future manifestation of antichrist, whether it is a spirit, a system or involve a leader (or all of the above).

For you to acknowledge that would dismantle your whole impotent thesis.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

No, they do not. As I have said, this vision was given to John a long time ago, but even in his time, he knew he was being shown what was then to come, but in the context that it had already happened.

So again Amils are claiming the first resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6 happened at Jesus’ first coming and is past.

This warning is for you as well because what you are saying is false doctrine, Paul agrees with me.

2 Timothy 2:16-18

King James Version

​

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[WPM]

So again Amils are claiming the first resurrection mentioned in Rev. 20:4-6 happened at Jesus’ first coming and is past.

This warning is for you as well because what you are saying is false doctrine, Paul agrees with me.

2 Timothy 2:16-18​

​

King James Version​

​

​

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

This is what is produced when people deny the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. Heresy!

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

This is what is produced when people deny the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ. Heresy!

Amils always try to prop up straw man arguments when their lies are exposed.

Paul knew Jesus was bodily resurrected already YET Paul did not consider the first resurrection to be past already. In fact Paul warned about this false doctrine.

2 Timothy 2:16-18​

King James Version​

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

Take it from me, the Holy scriptures and Paul the first resurrection of the dead in Christ is not past already.

 

[Deborah_]

You have mixed up the words zoe and the word zao in the above passage, conflating the two.

Zoe is the noun - "life". Zao is the verb - "I live". The words aren't the same grammatically but the concept is.

If you live, then you have life. Life is the act of living.

In every New Testament verse the word zao is mentioned, it means to be alive in the body)

This appears to be a circular argument. If you have previously decided that Jesus is talking about "life in the body" in the passage concerned, then the statement is true. But what if He isn't?

In John 5, He says that everyone who believes in Him has eternal life (present tense, i.e. here and now). Do you believe that we lose our eternal life when we die, and get it back at a later stage when we are resurrected? Seems as bit odd to me.

The word "die" appears twice, as it does in the Greek of John 11:26:

John 11:26: Literal meaning of the Greek:
And whosoever is alive in the body (zao) AND believeth in me, dying shall surely not die - to the age. Believest thou this?

The word 'die' appears only once in this verse in my Greek text. The repetition in Hebrew is simply an idiom used for emphasis - Greek does this differently.