Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion

[Ritajanice]

@Spiritual Israelite said In which resurrection? I do believe what you described will happen when Jesus comes again in the future.


The second resurection, where we will be raised with our glorified bodies, just like Jesus resurrected body.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Which when asked, you said the dead in Christ are raised at the second resurrection. This is because you believe the first resurrection is past.

I told the truth about what you said. You can apologize anytime now, but I won’t hold my breath.

I have nothing to apologize for, you evil liar. You know you are trying to make people think that amils believe the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ is past. That's why you falsely apply 2 Timothy 2:18 to us. But, we do NOT believe that. So, stop lying about that. You need to apologize for lying and not accurately representing what we believe.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But you also say Jesus’ resurrection ALONE IS the first resurrection, which is defined in Rev. 20:5-6.

So by adding up all these statements you are really saying the first resurrection is past. You don’t have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure this out.

Are you brain dead? You know that when you say that you are making it as if we believe that everyone has already had part in the first resurrection in the past, which is NOT what we believe. You are being deceptive in how you word things. Yes, Jesus's bodily resurrection obviously happened in the past, but people having part in the first resurrection has been ongoing ever since and will continue until Jesus returns in the future. But, you don't ever mention this about what we believe because you wickedly are trying to convince people that we believe that bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ happened in the past. Do you not even have a conscience? How can you keep lying like this and live with yourself?

 

[Ritajanice]

I think we should stop throwing stones at one another please, it’s unedifying, unfruitful for the forum and those looking in....imo.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Exactly. So, how many first resurrections from the dead are there in scripture? Just one in my view. Two in yours.

The first resurrection/harvest includes both the first fruits and the lump of the harvest at the last day. What you do not understand is they are ALL a part of the same resurrection/harvest.

Romans 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Take a gardening class perhaps that will help.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The first resurrection/harvest includes both the first fruits and the lump of the harvest at the last day. What you do not understand is they are ALL a part of the same resurrection/harvest.

Romans 11:16
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Take a gardening class perhaps that will help.

Take a Bible class and a class on integrity and perhaps that will help. Paul said there is an order to the bodily resurrections of the dead, but you completely ignore that. In your view there is no order to the resurrections of the dead because you see only one resurrection. But, Paul very specifically said there is an order to them with Christs's being first and then next in order those who belong to Christ at His second coming. Your doctrine is based on gardening and not on scripture.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

You know you are trying to make people think that amils believe the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ is past.

That is not what I said. I acknowledged you believe the dead in Christ are a part of the second resurrection.

So that means you do not believe the dead in Christ are a part of the first resurrection as is mentioned and defined in Rev. 20:5-6.

By the way, the second resurrection is the resurrection of damnation so you might want to rethink that.

 

[Ritajanice]

Revelation 20

King James Version

​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No doubt about it Amils are clearly twisting what the first resurrection in Revelation 20 is pertaining to, that being the bodily resurrection of saints in the future.

No doubt about it. You have no ability to back up your false claim.

Tell me, how many hours are coming when all of the dead will be resurrected?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

In regards to that you and I are on the same page. I'm just not seeing, at least not yet anyway, the alleged connection with that of 2 Timothy 2:18, though. I can see someone applying that to full preterists, though.

He's a liar. That's why he's trying to make it as if we're full preterists.

 

[Wick Stick]

Revelation 20

King James Version​

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.​

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It isn't the most clear-cut passage in the Bible, is it?

I read it to say that the first resurrection is only for the martyrs, and that the second resurrection is a general resurrection of everyone - good, bad, or indifferent - with a judgment and rewards/punishments meted out depending on deeds.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is not what I said.

It's what you imply when you try to apply 2nd Timothy 2:18 to us. Stop doing that, liar.

I acknowledged you believe the dead in Christ are a part of the second resurrection.

So that means you do not believe the dead in Christ are a part of the first resurrection as is mentioned and defined in Rev. 20:5-6.

Yes, we do. Are you just completely dense or are you a liar? Which is it? I assume you're just lying because I can't imagine someone being that dense. We believe that literally all of the dead in Christ have part in the first resurrection, regardless of whether we have the same understanding of that as you do or not. Understand? I've said this many times now. So, stop saying otherwise.

By the way, the second resurrection is the resurrection of damnation so you might want to rethink that.

In your view it is, but scripture teaches that the bodily resurrection of damnation and bodily resurrectoin to eternal life happens at the same hour/time. You might want to rethink THAT. How many hours/times are coming when all of the dead will be raised? You say two. Jesus said one.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Douggg]

The term "first resurrection" of Revelation 20:5, is the first of two mass resurrections to take place relative to the millennium.

first resurrection - at the beginning of the millennium. And will be expressly for the martyred great tribulation saints.

second resurrection - after the millennium is over, for the Great White Throne Judgement.

https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/search.php?q=first+resurrection&bsec=&order=0&s=1

The phrase "first resurrection" is found in only those two verses in the bible. Revelation 20:5-6.

 

[tailgator]

Here is why Amils believe the first resurrection as is mentioned in Rev. 20:5-6 is past.

They have confessed that they believe Jesus alone being raised from the dead IS the first resurrection as is mentioned and defined in Rev. 20:5-6.

Now let me compare this to a harvest, as does the words of God as well. If I had a garden of 10,000 tomatoes plants and I harvested One tomato first before the others that would be a first fruit.

But is the first fruit the entire harvest? No the first fruit was just the first ripe to be harvested, but One fruit is not the entire harvest.

But that is what Amil is preaching, that the first fruit is the entire first resurrection, or the entire end time harvest of the dead in Christ as shown in Rev. 20:5-6.

So believing the One first fruit is the entire harvest of fruits they believe the first resurrection/ harvest is past.

This is the warning…

2 Timothy 2:18
Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

What I see as a huge problem is people are taking Revelation 20:5-6 out of context.

If they kept it in context , they might see that the people revelation 20:5-9 is talking about ,are the people in verse 4 who were beheaded for their witness of Jesus,and who did not worship the beast ,it's image ,nor receive it's mark.

The saints in revelation 20:4 are the last to be killed for their witness of Jesus before Jesus comes and will be resurected and sit on thrones after he comes.



Mathew 19
27 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Behold, we have forsaken all, and followed thee; what shall we have therefore?

28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

 

[tailgator]

I expect they will continue to take revelation 20:5-6 out of context so they can continue telling everyone they have already been resurected.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

It's what you imply when you try to apply 2nd Timothy 2:18 to us.

It is what you imply when you say Jesus ALONE being raised from the dead IS the first resurrection as is defined in Rev. 20:5-6.

Clearly Jesus’ resurrection is past, so in effect you are also claiming the first resurrection is also past. Oh what a tangled web you have weaved for yourself when you practice to deceive eh?

In your view it is, but scripture teaches that the bodily resurrection of damnation and bodily resurrectoin to eternal life happens at the same hour/time.

What you do not understand is the word hour can also mean hours (more than one) and it can also mean season or time etc.

KJV Translation Count — Total: 108x
The KJV translates Strong's G5610 in the following manner: hour (89x), time (11x), season (3x), miscellaneous (5x).

Example the word hour G5610 can be shown as hours (more than one)

Jhn 11:9 - Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours G5610 in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

Also the same word G5610 can be shown as high time

Rom 13:11 - And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time G5610 to awake out of sleep: for now is oursalvation nearer than when we believed.

And it can be shown as a season…

Phm 1:15 - For perhaps hetherefore departed for a season, G5610that thou shouldest receive him for ever;

And it can be shown as the last time/hour

1Jo 2:18 - Little children, it is the last time: G5610 and as ye have heardthat antichrist shall come, even noware there many antichrists; wherebywe know that it is the last timeG5610

So thinking the word hour is limited to a 60 minute time period would be in error.

 

[Ritajanice]

Short commentary.

People also ask
What is the order of the resurrections in the Bible?
First, Jesus was resurrected, and second, His people will be raised, with the latter event occurring at the return of Christ(v. 22). Our Lord's resurrection is the firstfruits, so it happens first. Our resurrection at the end of history is the fullness of the harvest, so it happens later.

 

[Ritajanice]

The Father and the Son

16Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him. 17But Jesus answered them, “To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.”

18Because of this, the Jews tried all the harder to kill Him. Not only was He breaking the Sabbath, but He was even calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.

19So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom He wishes.

22Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

24Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life.

25Truly, truly, I tell you, the hour is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in Himself, so also He has granted the Son to have life in Himself. 27And He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice 29and come out—those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.e

30I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

 

[Ritajanice]

Short commentary.

He did this by dying for our sins on the cross and by conquering death through His resurrection. You see, as a human being you were born into a family—and nothing can ever change that. But when we come to Christ we are spiritually reborn into another family—the family of God.

 

[Wick Stick]

I expect they will continue to take revelation 20:5-6 out of context so they can continue telling everyone they have already been resurected.

On the one hand... the Bible DOES refer to the regeneration of new believers in terms of raising the dead to life. E.g. Ephesians 1-2

On the other... that isn't what Revelation 20 is about. The context demands that it's talking about martyrs, and even with Revelation's visions and symbols, there isn't a way to interpret martyrs to be new believers. That just doesn't work.

 

[WPM]

On the one hand... the Bible DOES refer to the regeneration of new believers in terms of raising the dead to life. E.g. Ephesians 1-2

On the other... that isn't what Revelation 20 is about. The context demands that it's talking about martyrs, and even with Revelation's visions and symbols, there isn't a way to interpret martyrs to be new believers. That just doesn't work.

There are two pivotal resurrections spoken about in the NT. There is our initial spiritual resurrection "in Christ," upon salvation, where we are raised to newness of life. At conversion, the Christian dies to the desires, control and governance of the “old man” or the old nature, and enters into the new man – Christ. He loses all rights to self-rule and yields to the impulses and authority of the Holy Spirit, who’s office it is to conform us to the image of Christ.

What results from this great eternal transaction is our eventual physical resurrection, where we are delivered from this body of death, from corruption to incorruption, and transformed into the glorious likeness of Christ, when Jesus returns at the end.

Revelation 20:6 simply says, “Blessed and holy is he ‘that hath part’ (present active particle) in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power.”

This is an ongoing current reality for the believer in salvation. Experiencing eternal life delivers us from eternal punishment.

The Greek word for "first" (as in first resurrection) is protos. It is a contracted superlative meaning foremost (in time, place, order and/or importance). So which is the "first" (or protos) resurrection - Christ's or the resurrection that occurs at the second coming? This is a pretty simply question.

• Which is the foremost resurrection in time?
• Which is the foremost resurrection in place?
• Which is the foremost resurrection in order?
• Which is the foremost resurrection in importance?

Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in time.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in place.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in order.
Christ's resurrection is the "first" or foremost resurrection in importance.

Many overlook the phrase "hath part." Whatever that refers to will seal this debate. The unfortunate thing for Premils is that it is present tense. So whatever resurrection it is speaking of, believers currently have their "part" in it. Whatever “the first resurrection” is, participation in it qualifies humans’ to escape the horrors of eternal punishment (the second death). In this experience Christians identify with Christ’s victorious resurrection.