Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[Ronald David Bruno]

The Op rebuts this. Please address it instead of making an evasive presentation.

No, you think it does. You misinterpret scripture. Amillennials got it wrong. Aside from my speculative math and time frame between the two groups resurrection, the rest is sound. You'll find out soon enough.

 

[WPM]

Here you are flat out lying about me. I have no Premil mentors. Since I have a brain of my own I am perfectly capable of reasoning through things on my own, I then form my own conclusions first, then I sometimes check other sources to see if anyone else is coming to the same or similar conclusions.

For example. If I am forming the opinion that Daniel 7:21 is involving Revelation 13:5-7, and that I am forming the opinion that Daniel 7:22 is involving the beginning of the millennium, I might then check some cross ref sites to see if any of them are listing those passages as cross refs. And sure enough, they are. But you lie about me and say it's the other way around, that I am forming my opinions based on what cross ref sites my alleged Premil mentors use that they have led me to use. When that is not even true. That aside, since it's not even worth arguing about any more. Believe what you want about me, in regards to the above, I don't care anymore.

It is apparent to some of us, though you claim you use Scripture to interpret Scripture, that you really don't. Your post here alone proves that, the fact you are demanding that what was hidden in the OT until revealed in the NT is not supposed to be hidden in the OT at all. You are contradicting yourself here by asking, where does Daniel 7:22 mention the 2nd coming? You are looking foolish if your position is, that things are hidden in the OT, revealed in the NT, then demanding, where does it say that that in that verse, so on and so on. How about in the NT? Duh! After all, prior to the NT the 2nd coming would initially be hidden in Daniel 7:22. Duh! again.

I'm convinced some of you don't even have a clue as to how to properly interpret Scripture with Scripture in a lot of cases, because all most of you are doing is using the NT alone rather than both testaments combined. If you were interpreting Scripture with Scripture you would notice per the NT that what is recorded in Revelation 13:5-7 this is what precedes the 2nd coming of Christ. The 2nd coming of Christ is what puts an end to that 42 month reign and the persecuting and martyring of saints. Revelation 13:5-7 is involving the same time period that Daniel 7:21 is involving.

The coming in Daniel 7:22 is what puts an end to this percecution taking place per verse 21, also meaning Revelation 13:5-7 according to the NT. Therefore, it stands to reason that Daniel 7:22 must be involving the 2nd coming. It is plain silly otherwise, that if according to the NT the 2nd coming is at the end of the beast's 42 month reign, and that Daniel 7:21 is also involving this same 42 month reign, and that Daniel 7:22 is meaning after Daniel 7:21 is fulfilled, that the coming in verse 22 is not even the 2nd coming, though in the NT the 2nd coming follows the 42 month reign.

On a different note, there are times that you argue with Preterists about the coming meant in Matthew 24, except you need to quit arguing with Preterists about something like that when you have no room to talk, the fact you are doing here the same thing they are doing, changing the 2nd coming to be meaning the first coming because of doctrinal bias, then criticizing them for doing that but giving yourself a free pass when you do it, such as you are doing per Daniel 7.

I have no desire to lie or hurt you. I apologize if i have misrepresented you. But, as per usual you avoided my rebuttal above.

 

[WPM]

No, you think it does. You misinterpret scripture. Amillennials got it wrong. Aside from my speculative math and time frame between the two groups resurrection, the rest is sound. You'll find out soon enough.

I think that you think that if you keep repeating your faulty opinion that it will suddenly will become a fact. That is not the way it works. The Op actually stands unchallenged so far.

 

[WPM]

I know who the beast is and the people who followed after it.
I also know the name of the people who are beheaded for their witness of Jesus and who do not worship the beast,it's image nor receive it's mark.

Revelation 20:4-9 is perfect just as it is written and you should stop taking one or two verses out of context if you truly want to understand it.


Revelation, 20:4-9
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

This is not true.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Never. I can't believe how many lies I see on this Christian forum. Have churches started preaching that lying is not a sin these days?

WPM began this thread with a misrepresentation of the Premillennial position. Seems like the strawman argument is par for the course.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, you think it does. You misinterpret scripture. Amillennials got it wrong. Aside from my speculative math and time frame between the two groups resurrection, the rest is sound. You'll find out soon enough.

1948 defeated Amillennialism a long time ago.

 

[Ritajanice]

This resurrection has to be spiritual “in Christ.” Notably, this promise in Revelation 20:6 is in the present tense, thus supporting the Amil interpretation. Basically, this is not simply a future hope, it is a present reality for the redeemed. When we get saved, all the redeemed of all times (without exception) partake in this glorious resurrection. This therefore gives them a current ongoing everlasting victory over eternal punishment (as repeatedly taught in Scripture)


Amen!,to the above..

@WPM said.

Those who have eyes to see and have ears to hear will get it.


RJ says, yes, when we are Born Again ,we receive those spiritual eyes and ears, they need to be developed,....forever developing our eyes and ears, once Born Again,just my thoughts.

[16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. [17] For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

 

[tailgator]

I don't know what you're on, but it is confusing you. This is delusional.

There is nothing delusional about this .
If you would stop taking verses out of context ,then you might not be so confused.The chapter is perfect just as it is written.
It is very self explanatory.


Revelation, 20:4-9
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Revelation 20:6 tells us: "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

The first resurrection is shown throughout the Word to be Christ’s resurrection

This is your big mistake.
The above verse is not describing Christ,
AS IF it is informing us that Christ is blessed and holy and will not suffer a second death.
Reading the next words tells you who this is talking about and what we will be doing " but they shall be priests of God andnof Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

It is truly a mental block that you cannot discern that scripture and heaven knows how many others!

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

1948 defeated Amillennialism a long time ago.

Good point. The Millennial Kingdom also a promise, covenants made in the Old Testament and New that have not been fulfilled.

Thread 'The Millennial Kingdom' The Millennial Kingdom

 

[WPM]

WPM began this thread with a misrepresentation of the Premillennial position. Seems like the strawman argument is par for the course.

The testimony of its veracity is seen in the fact that you (or no Premil) have not been able to rebut any of it.

 

[WPM]

This is your big mistake.
The above verse is not describing Christ,
AS IF it is informing us that Christ is blessed and holy and will not suffer a second death.
Reading the next words tells you who this is talking about and what we will be doing " but they shall be priests of God andnof Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years."

It is truly a mental block that you cannot discern that scripture and heaven knows how many others!

It is heretical to deny the physical resurrection of Christ. He was first to conquer the grave.

Premils ignore the most important resurrection to let their opinion fit. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[WPM]

1948 defeated Amillennialism a long time ago.

Really? In what way?

 

[WPM]

WPM began this thread with a misrepresentation of the Premillennial position. Seems like the strawman argument is par for the course.

Where did i misrepresent the Premillennial position?

 

[WPM]

The biblical means by which we escape the second death is remaining faithful untill death.

Revelation 2
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

This has already started then. It is ongoing. It refers to eternal life that we receive upon salvation.

 

[Ritajanice]

QUESTION

​

What is the realm of the Spirit (Romans 8:9)?​

ANSWER

In Romans 8:9, Paul says that a mark of believers is that they live “in the realm of the Spirit.” Here is a look at the context of this statement:

In Romans 8:1, the apostle Paul declares, “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.” This verse establishes the central theme of the eighth chapter, namely, the assurance of salvation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Believers are free from the condemnation of sin because they have been united with Christ through faith.

Romans 8:2 explains why there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. The law of the Spirit of life has set believers free from the law of sin and death. In other words, the Holy Spirit empowers believers to obey God’s moral law rather than being enslaved to the power of sin and death.

Romans 8:3 explains that the Law of Moses, which was given to Israel, was powerless to save people from sin because of human frailty. However, God sent His own Son to become a human being and offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin (cf. John 10:18). In doing so, God condemned sin in the flesh and freed believers from the power of sin.

Romans 8:4 explains that Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin to fulfill the requirements of the law—the requirements being perfect obedience to God (cf. Matthew 5:17). Those who have been saved by grace through faith in Christ (cf. Ephesians 2:89) are empowered to walk according to the Spirit and fulfill the requirements of the law through the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:5 contrasts those who live according to the flesh and those who live according to the Spirit. Those who live according to the flesh set their minds on sinful things, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on heavenly things.

Romans 8:6 distinguishes between a mind set on the flesh, which leads to death, and a mind set on the Spirit, which leads to life and peace. Believers are urged to set their minds on the things of the Spirit and have life and peace (cf. Colossians 3:1–4).

Romans 8:7 explains that a mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God and cannot obey His law. This is because the flesh is corrupted by sin and is unable to please God (cf. James 4:4).

Romans 8:8 bluntly states that those who are in the flesh cannot please God. In other words, those who live according to their own sinful desires and not according to the Spirit are unable to please God. It is only through faith in Christ and the work of the Holy Spirit that believers can please God (cf. Colossians 1:10 and 1 John 3:22).

Romans 8:9 contrasts the realm of the flesh with the realm of the Spirit. The NIV translation uses the word realm to describe two different spheres: the sphere of the flesh and the sphere of the Spirit. A realm is where a person operates, whether it is the area influenced by the flesh or the area influenced by the Spirit. If a person has the Spirit of God within, then he is living in the realm of the Spirit, which is the domain of the Holy Spirit. But if a person does not have the Spirit of God, then he remains in the realm of the flesh and does not belong to God.

The New Living Translation of Romans 8:9 associates the realm of the Spirit with living under the Spirit’s control: “But you are not controlled by your sinful nature. You are controlled by the Spirit if you have the Spirit of God living in you. (And remember that those who do not have the Spirit of Christ living in them do not belong to him at all.)”

Romans 8 reminds us that salvation is primarily a work of God in us. It is the Holy Spirit who indwells and sanctifies us to be more like Christ. We cannot do it on our own. We must allow ourselves to be controlled by the sway, power, and influence of the Holy Spirit

 

[rwb]

Exactly.
The resurected saints in Revelation 20:4 are all the same saints through 20:9.

They don't get it .They take one verse out of context and claim they have been resurected without first being killed.

It's rediculous.

You make zero sense! Why would resurrected saints be called "the dead"? Why were the martyred saints killed? You're right! This opinion is ridiculous!

 

[rwb]

Where did i misrepresent the Premillennial position?

Amils don't have to misrepresent the Premillennial position, the Word of God does this for us, as it proves Premillennialism is formulated on contradictions and confusion!

 

[tailgator]

This has already started then. It is ongoing. It refers to eternal life that we receive upon salvation.

False
It means remain faithful untill death.
Can you not understand revelation 2:10-11,or are you just ignoring it?


Revelation 2
10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

 

[tailgator]

You make zero sense! Why would resurrected saints be called "the dead"? Why were the martyred saints killed? You're right! This opinion is ridiculous!

The resurected saints in revelation 20:4-9 are resurected from.the dead after they were beheaded for their witness of Jesus.

Why do you have such a hard time understanding revelation 20:4?
This is a very simple 6 verses about the martyrs of Christ and what takes place after their resurrection.

Revelation 20:4

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



If you claim that you are one of these resurected saints ,then who was it that beheaded you ?