Getting to the heart of the Amil confusion

[Ritajanice]

Before one can be bodily resurrected ,they must also be resurrected in their spirit/ regenerated/ Born Again...no Born Again, no bodily resurrection....without God’s Spirit ,we are none of His, according to his word.

Only a Born Again can see the Kingdom Of God.

Jesus is described as the "firstborn from the dead", prōtotokos, the first to be raised from the dead, thereby acquiring the "special status of the firstborn as the preeminent son and heir". His resurrection is also the guarantee that all the Christian dead will be resurrected at Christ's parousia

 

[WPM]

The root of the Amil confusion is in thinking Jesus alone is the entire first resurrection/harvest of those who physically died in the faith.

The first fruit is not the entire harvest that is yet to be harvested/ reaped at the last day.

Jesus is the first fruits.

 

[grafted branch]

1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

What 1 Corinthians 15:23 is pointing to is Revelation 19:11-16 where Christ, on the white horse, is ranked first and the armies in heaven that follow Him on their horses are ranked next. The word “order” in 1 Corinthians 15:23 is meant as a military ranking which agrees with Revelation 19. Also 1 Corinthians 15:24 say “then cometh the end”, meaning the end comes in Revelation 19:17-21.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here is why Amils believe the first resurrection as is mentioned in Rev. 20:5-6 is past

Scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection. We all agree that is past, but this does NOT mean we are saying that everyone who will have part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection) already had part in it in the past.

Also, you believe that the first resurrection refers to the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ. You falsely and deceptively try to make people believe that we claim that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ happened in the past and we do NOT believe that! We believe it will happen when Jesus comes again in the FUTURE.

 

[Ritajanice]

@WPM ...said Jesus is the first fruits.

RJ..Amen!

In 1 Corinthians 15:20, Paul mentions Christ as the “first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.” Jesus was God's first fruits—his one and only son, and the best that humanity had to offer. God gave Jesus, who was raised from the dead, up for us, in the same way that we sacrifice the best we have for him

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Here's my thinking on it, right or wrong. It obviously can't be involving what is recorded in Revelation 20 pertaining to the first resurrection if John hadn't even seen these visions yet. Duh! Right? IOW, they couldn't be trying to confuse anyone about Revelation 20 if Revelation 20 didn't even exist yet. Therefore, we can rule that out. What I'm thinking then, is this.

Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


This resurrection event included Christ rising from the dead and also included many bodies of the saints rising from the dead. This is the resurrection event they are saying is in the past. The err is not with that since they would be correct that this resurrection event was in the past. The err would be that they were teaching no other bodily resurrection needs to take place in the future as well since it already took place in the past, thus fulfilled entirely.

Whether I'm right or wrong that's what tends to make the most sense to me. Therefore, assuming I might be right, one can't apply 2 Timothy 2:18 to anyone in our day and time except for maybe full Preterists. Certainly not to Amils, since Amils, regardless how they are interpreting Revelation 20:4-6, keeping in mind also, that when 2 Timothy 2:18 is meaning Revelation 20 didn't even exist yet, Amils are not even remotely insisting there is not a bodily resurrection event in the future, because it was already entirely fulfilled in the past when Christ and when the many bodies of saints rose, therefore, no one needs to also bodily rise in the future because everyone that was to rise bodily already rose 2000 years ago.

Thanks for providing some sanity to this thread from the premil perspective, David. I appreciate your honesty which is in stark contrast to the dishonesty of Stewardofthemystery who wickedly and deceptively tries to make people think we claim that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ already happened in the past. He's not content with just agreeing to disagree with us, he insists on repeatedly misrepresenting our view. That says a lot about him as a person completely lacking in integrity.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It is what I have heard myself from several Amil believers on this forum.

You only tell part of the story. You act as if we say that the first resurrection only relates to Jesus and that's it. Not so. We believe that His resurrection was the first bodily resurrection from the dead because scripture explicitly teaches that.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

But, when it comes to having part in the first resurrection, we believe that all who belong to Christ have part in it. That's the part you always leave out because you are evil and purposely misrepresent what we believe.

Passages like the following are how we believe people have part in the first resurrection (Christ's resurrection):

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

We spiritually have part in His resurrection by way of going from being spiritually dead in our sins to spiritually alive in Christ. So, in our view, all believers have part in the first resurrection while that is not the case for premil. The way I understand Revelation 20:6, a person MUST have part in the first resurrection in order for the second death to not have power over them. In that case, it can't refer to the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ because then those who are alive when Christ returns would have no way of avoiding the second death since they will not die and be resurrected.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

1 Corinthians 15:23 is an incomplete list of all those who are resurrected. The word “order” <5001> means ranking, as in Christ is ranked first then those who are Christ’s at His coming are ranked next.

Christ is the head, the members being many make up the rest of the body. The body is not complete until all the members are resurrected and made perfect in One.

1 Corinthians 12:12
For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

Unbelievers are not shown in this ranking

Unbelievers are not a part of the body/ first resurrection/ harvest.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@WPM ...said Jesus is the first fruits.

RJ..Amen!

In 1 Corinthians 15:20, Paul mentions Christ as the “first fruits of those who have fallen asleep.” Jesus was God's first fruits—his one and only son, and the best that humanity had to offer. God gave Jesus, who was raised from the dead, up for us, in the same way that we sacrifice the best we have for him

Yes. That means He was the first to rise from the dead unto bodily immortality, thereby ensuring that when He comes again, the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected unto immortality as well. So, this is why some amils, like myself, see Christ's resurrection as the first resurrection and see the reference to having part in the first resurrection as a case of spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection by way of being born again/saved. Other amils would say that being born again/saved, which involves going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ, itself is the first resurrection. Regardless, all amils agree on how someone has part in the first resurrection.

The liar who created this thread tries to make it as if amils believe that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ, which he believes is the first resurrection, happened in the past, but that is not true. We believe that the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected when Jesus comes in the future.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Jesus is the first fruits.

Yes, Jesus is the first fruits OF the first resurrection/ harvest.

One fruit is not the entire harvest of many fruits.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

We do NOT claim

I know what you claim, it’s all on the World Wide Web for all to see.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know what you claim, it’s all on the World Wide Web for all to see.

You falsely represent what we claim, liar. You try to make it as if we claim the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ happened in the past already and we do NOT claim that. The bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur in the FUTURE when Jesus returns.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Spiritual Israelite ..said

. We believe that the dead in Christ will be bodily resurrected when Jesus comes in the future.

RJ ,says...yes, I agree.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection.

Scripture teaches that Jesus was the first to be resurrected from the dead unto Eternal Life. Jesus is the first fruits OF the first resurrection, but the first resurrection/ harvest is not complete until ALL the fruits of the harvest are reaped.

I think you Amils need to take a gardening class and learn about how the first fruit of a harvest is not the entire harvest.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

The bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ will occur in the FUTURE when Jesus returns.

Which when asked, you said the dead in Christ are raised at the second resurrection. This is because you believe the first resurrection is past.

I told the truth about what you said. You can apologize anytime now, but I won’t hold my breath.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I don't know who said so, but I don't think that's a typical amil belief. A quick internet search yields this, which is in line with what I've heard in the past...

Right. Not all amils believe that Christ's resurrection itself is the first resurrection and that having part in the first resurrection means spiritually have part in Christ's resurrection, but some of us do. Either way, all amils agree that the way we have part in the first resurrection is by being spiritually born again/saved by way of going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive with Christ. The main reason I don't see it the way what you call "the typical amil belief" does is because there is scripture which describes Christ's resurrection itself as being the first resurrection from the dead and because being born (again) and being resurrected are not the same thing. But, I don't really have a problem with them seeing it that way since I can see going from being spiritually dead in sins to spiritually alive in Christ as a spiritual type of resurrection.

 

[Ritajanice]

@Spiritual Israelite short commentary.

In this resurrection, those who have died in Christ will have their redeemed souls and spirits united with a body similar to Christ's glorified body. Christians living at the time of this event will not die, but will be changed to be like Christ

Romans 6:8-11KJV. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Scripture teaches that Jesus was the first to be resurrected from the dead unto Eternal Life.

Exactly. So, how many first resurrections from the dead are there in scripture? Just one in my view. Two in yours.

Jesus is the first fruits OF the first resurrection, but the first resurrection/ harvest is not complete until ALL the fruits of the harvest are reaped.

I think you Amils need to take a gardening class and learn about how the first fruit of a harvest is not the entire harvest.

You need to take a Bible class and learn how to interpret it. You also need to take a class on integrity so you learn that lying, which you do about what amils believe, is a sin. Paul taught that Christ's resurrection itself was the first in order. That's why in Acts 26:23 he specifically points out that Christ was the first to rise from the dead (implying the first to rise unto bodily immortality). He said next in order are those who belong to Christ at His second coming.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul said there is an order to the resurrections of the dead unto bodily immortality. That imples more than one resurrection unto bodily immortality. He said Christ's resurrection was first in order. Next in order are "they that are Chirst's at his coming". So, the resurrection of the dead in Christ is the second resurrection in order, not the first.

Remind me again of how many hours you think are coming when all of the dead will be raised?

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

@Spiritual Israelite short commentary.

In this resurrection, those who have died in Christ will have their redeemed souls and spirits united with a body similar to Christ's glorified body. Christians living at the time of this event will not die, but will be changed to be like Christ

Romans 6:8-11KJV. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him

In which resurrection? I do believe what you described will happen when Jesus comes again in the future.

 

[Stewardofthemystery]

Another lie from you. We only say that Christ's resurrection is past,

But you also say Jesus’ resurrection ALONE IS the first resurrection, which is defined in Rev. 20:5-6.

So by adding up all these statements you are really saying the first resurrection is past. You don’t have to be Sherlock Holmes to figure this out.