It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

Revelation 14

1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

And what do you do with this coming? Pretend it's not there?

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

This is not a local or limited harvest. This is an all-inclusive global harvest of the earth. Only a bias observer would think otherwise.

• This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” (Revelation 14:15), not of small Israel or of the 144,000.
• The “sickle” is “thrust” in “on the earth,” (Revelation 14:15), not just physical Israel, or of the 144,000.
• This results in “the earth” being “reaped” (Revelation 14:16).
• Christ gathers “the vine of the earth” (Revelation 14:18), not ethnic Israel, or of the 144,000.
• What happens to the recipients? Read: "the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.” They are destroyed! Is this what happens to your 144,000?

 

[The Light]

Why do you divert away from the actual passage of the discussion to more Scripture that forbids your error? That's what you do all the time when your doctrine is exposed. It is impossible to get you to stay on topic.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

Jesus simply mentions these two days in history to show us what His one final climactic return will look like. There is no suggestion of 2 raptures in Jesus teaching. That belongs to your Left Behind novels. That is invented nonsense. The word rapture is not even in the Bible - in the original or the English. Pretribs force it in there to support their error.

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

After all, this is the actual subject that Christ is speaking of.

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

What happens before the wrath of God? There is a great multitude in heaven.

I guess if you leave out 2/3 of prophecy you could make your beliefs work. But how do you explain the nation of Israel being reborn? Pretend it didn't happen?

 

[The Light]

This is not a local or limited harvest. This is an all-inclusive global harvest of the earth. Only a bias observer would think otherwise.

• This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” (Revelation 14:15), not of small Israel or of the 144,000.
• The “sickle” is “thrust” in “on the earth,” (Revelation 14:15), not just physical Israel, or of the 144,000.
• This results in “the earth” being “reaped” (Revelation 14:16).
• Christ gathers “the vine of the earth” (Revelation 14:18), not ethnic Israel, or of the 144,000.
• What happens to the recipients? Read: "the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.” They are destroyed! Is this what happens to your 144,000?

It's the gathering from heaven and earth prior to the wrath of God.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

What happens before the wrath of God? There is a great multitude in heaven.

I guess if you leave out 2/3 of prophecy you could make your beliefs work. But how do you explain the nation of Israel being reborn? Pretend it didn't happen?

A great multitude of souls in heaven. John saw the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven, not anyone with immortal bodies (Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 20:4). Do you believe in soul sleep? Is that why you can't recognize that it's talking about their souls being in heaven?

 

[WPM]

It's the gathering from heaven and earth prior to the wrath of God.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

So, I prove your thesis wrong on 1 Thessalonians 4, and what do you do? You move to Luke 17:26-30. Prove that wrong, what do you do? You move to Revelation 14. Prove that wrong, what do you do? You move to 2 Thessalonians 2. The reality is, you cannot deal with any text, because none of them teach your doctrine, and all of them forbid it. That is why you duck, weave and avoid every counter-argument.

 

[WPM]

Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

What happens before the wrath of God? There is a great multitude in heaven.

I guess if you leave out 2/3 of prophecy you could make your beliefs work. But how do you explain the nation of Israel being reborn? Pretend it didn't happen?

Deal with Luke 17:26-30.

 

[The Light]

A great multitude of souls in heaven. John saw the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven, not anyone with immortal bodies (Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 20:4).

The great multitude has new bodies. However, you can't possibly understand that because you think the 6th seal happens after the 7th seal..........I THINK.

Do you believe in soul sleep?

No.

Is that why you can't recognize that it's talking about their souls being in heaven?

Since my prior answer was no, this is also a no.

 

[The Light]

So, I prove your thesis wrong on 1 Thessalonians 4

Oh. I must have missed this post. What post number is this that you are referring to?

, and what do you do? You move to Luke 17:26-30. Prove that wrong, what do you do? You move to Revelation 14.

You said the Lord was coming only once. I posted scriptures that prove you are in error, again. Of course you are unable to address the scriptures that I posted so you roll out the usual tactics.

Why not try addressing the scriptures in my post????????????????????????

Prove that wrong, what do you do?

Lol. Please find any post you have made that proves what I have said is incorrect.

I'm still waiting for you to show me where the 1st 5 trumpets have occurred. You clam they have occurred but you can never post evidence of such.

You move to 2 Thessalonians 2. The reality is, you cannot deal with any text, because none of them teach your doctrine, and all of them forbid it. That is why you duck, weave and avoid every counter-argument.

I am posting the scriptures that prove you are in error such as the two coming of Jesus we see in Revelation 14.

Of course you are unable to address these scriptures so you just babble on about avoidance and such things. Just ONCE I would like to see you disprove what I am saying WITH SCRIPTURE.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Op Note

Most of us know that there is no rebuttal to the truth of God. That is why Pretribbers have no answer to the Op. It is near impossible to get them to address a text, exegete a text, and flesh out a text. That is because no Scripture supports their error. It forbids Pretrib. The Bible depicts the coming of Christ as climactic. It is the end!

All they can do is duck and dive around the inspired pages and blatant truth. We have had another month of avoidance, another month of personal attacks on Posttribbers. That is all they have. The reader can go back and observe the continuous avoidance of all the multiple holes in the Pretrib theory on this thread. They can also note the extensive unaddressed detailed biblical posts of Posttribbers.

The reality is: Pretrib is dead. It is time to give it a decent burial.

Yawn
Yes the second coming on white horses postrib is climactic .
Pretribbers believe that.

No, it is not the end.
Where did that bizarre theory come from?

 

[The Light]

LOL. More avoidance!!! You know it is not there. It is an extra-biblical Jesuit invention foisted upon the sacred pages that you have bought into.

Yeah right.

I showed you where the verses of 1 Thes 4 conclude with.....Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

You ask impossible questions and then claim your usual avoidance nonsense. If you are unable to understand the conclusion statement, not my problem.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Oh. I must have missed this post. What post number is this that you are referring to?


You said the Lord was coming only once. I posted scriptures that prove you are in error, again. Of course you are unable to address the scriptures that I posted so you roll out the usual tactics.

Why not try addressing the my post????????????????????????


Lol. Please find any post you have made that proves what I have said is incorrect.

I'm still waiting for you to show me where the 1st 5 trumpets have occurred. You clam they have occurred but you can never post evidence of such.


I am posting the scriptures that prove you are in error such as the two coming of Jesus we see in Revelation 14.

Of course you are unable to address these scriptures so you just babble on about avoidance and such things. Just ONCE I would like to see you disprove what I am saying WITH SCRIPTURE.

That "one coming" fairy tale has them with 20 eggs on face.
Kinda comical.
But hilarious that they walk around in the party sipping anti Pretrib beverages trying to be poker faced about it.
( no win. If they pretend it isn't there it magnifies the humiliating embarrassment)
Now that is hilarious!!!!
Lol

 

[rebuilder 454]

Woah.
(Laying on the floor laughing)
Shaking so hard I cam baR~ely t~Ype.

 

[The Light]

Deal with Luke 17:26-30.

Be happy to. You act like this is a problem.

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

You claim that there is ONE coming of Jesus. You say the days of Noah and the days of Lot refer to the same ONE coming of Jesus. Scripture says different. Looking at the previous verses we see Jesus tells His disciples that they will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man. But they will not see it. That means there is more than one day when the Son of Man comes. In other word, the Son of man will come as lightning more than once. That's what the scripture says.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

 

[WPM]

Oh. I must have missed this post. What post number is this that you are referring to?


You said the Lord was coming only once. I posted scriptures that prove you are in error, again. Of course you are unable to address the scriptures that I posted so you roll out the usual tactics.

Why not try addressing the scriptures in my post????????????????????????


Lol. Please find any post you have made that proves what I have said is incorrect.

I'm still waiting for you to show me where the 1st 5 trumpets have occurred. You clam they have occurred but you can never post evidence of such.


I am posting the scriptures that prove you are in error such as the two coming of Jesus we see in Revelation 14.

Of course you are unable to address these scriptures so you just babble on about avoidance and such things. Just ONCE I would like to see you disprove what I am saying WITH SCRIPTURE.

Where is your trib mentioned in 1 Thess 4 after the rapture?

 

[WPM]

Be happy to. You act like this is a problem.

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

You claim that there is ONE coming of Jesus. You say the days of Noah and the days of Lot refer to the same ONE coming of Jesus. Scripture says different. Looking at the previous verses we see Jesus tells His disciples that they will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man. But they will not see it. That means there is more than one day when the Son of Man comes. In other word, the Son of man will come as lightning more than once. That's what the scripture says.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Read the text! He was on earth at the time and speaking about men seeing Him physically as they were in person. Hello! Stop forcing Pretribbism somewhere where it is not - namely all Scripture. You are yet to show a proof text.

What is more, it talks about "the days" (plural) of "the son of man" like "the days" (plural) of Lot and Noah, and then the individual day of total destruction. This is talking about the working of Christ as the One final future coming of Christ approaches.

This forbids your invented 2 comings that are separated by an imaginary tribulation period.

 

[WPM]

Be happy to. You act like this is a problem.

Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

You claim that there is ONE coming of Jesus. You say the days of Noah and the days of Lot refer to the same ONE coming of Jesus. Scripture says different. Looking at the previous verses we see Jesus tells His disciples that they will desire to see one of the days of the Son of man. But they will not see it. That means there is more than one day when the Son of Man comes. In other word, the Son of man will come as lightning more than once. That's what the scripture says.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.

24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

 

[WPM]

Yawn
Yes the second coming on white horses postrib is climactic .
Pretribbers believe that.

No, it is not the end.
Where did that bizarre theory come from?

You cannot seem to string a coherent sentence together. This is all gibberish. Do you not realize that Scripture gives varying detail on many events to give us a good overall panoramic view? This does not negate the fact that the detail is describing the same climatic event.

 

[The Light]

Where is your trib mentioned in 1 Thess 4 after the rapture?

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We can escape all these things which come to pass during the tribulation shown in Luke 21, Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

 

[The Light]

Read the text! He was on earth at the time and speaking about men seeing Him physically as they were in person. Hello! Stop forcing Pretribbism somewhere where it is not - namely all Scripture. You are yet to show a proof text.

What is more, it talks about "the days" (plural) of "the son of man" like "the days" (plural) of Lot and Noah, and then the individual day of total destruction. This is talking about the working of Christ as the One final future coming of Christ approaches.

This forbids your invented 2 comings that are separated by an imaginary tribulation period.

Nah.
Luke 21
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

The Son of man will be like lightning in His day................and yet.............He comes as lightning more than once as we see in scripture.

Luke 17
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

The sweet part is this is shown just before the days of Noah and Lot examples.

Two comings like lightning. Two harvest. Two raptures. The fig tree has two harvests. There is a grain and fruit harvest in the feasts of God.

I know you are unable to see these things as there must be foolish virgins that refuse to watch and be ready as our Lord instructed. He's coming. Comfort one another with these words.

 

[The Light]

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

In Noah's day, Noah enters the ark and all are surviving until the flood which is the wrath of God.
In Lot's day, the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.