It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We can escape all these things which come to pass during the tribulation shown in Luke 21, Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

LOL. You know what we know: there is no trib period in 1 Thess 4. It is a Pretrib invention. You divert to Luke 21, that also doesn't have a trib period following. You are unable to quote any trib detail in these. That is because it does not exist. You force your false teaching into the text where there is no mention of a trib.

In Luke 21:33-36 Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

So, "they (the wicked) shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that accompanies Christ's return, but we (the redeemed) are "accounted worthy to escape." It will come upon the rebel "unawares." This is describing the same climactic event. It is the end. Men are either ready or caught unexpectedly; they are caught up or caught on. They are either saved or lost. It is now eternal bliss or eternal torment.

Christ is exhorting His listeners here to be ready for His return, and warning that He will pour out His wrath upon all mankind who are not prepared, ready and rescued. This is the time when the heavens and the earth shall pass away.

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the wicked and current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:9 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the sudden destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

 

[WPM]

In Noah's day, Noah enters the ark and all are surviving until the flood which is the wrath of God.
In Lot's day, the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

The day each were rescued total destruction came. Hello! You are fighting with the text. They are both likened onto Christ's one-and-only return. Pretribbers are seeing double all the time. Their vision is impaired through false teaching.

 

[The Light]

LOL. You know what we know: there is no trib period in 1 Thess 4. It is a Pretrib invention. You divert to Luke 21, that also doesn't have a trib period following. You are unable to quote any trib detail in these. That is because it does not exist. You force your false teaching into the text where there is no mention of a trib.

What are you talking about? There is a great tribulation that the Church will escape and there is a wrath of God that will begin when the 7th seal is opened.

In Luke 21:33-36 Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

So, "they (the wicked) shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that accompanies Christ's return, but we (the redeemed) are "accounted worthy to escape." It will come upon the rebel "unawares." This is describing the same climactic event. It is the end. Men are either ready or caught unexpectedly; they are caught up or caught on. They are either saved or lost. It is now eternal bliss or eternal torment.

Here is the sudden destruction that will occur during the one year wrath of God.

Rev 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Christ is exhorting His listeners here to be ready for His return, and warning that He will pour out His wrath upon all mankind who are not prepared, ready and rescued. This is the time when the heavens and the earth shall pass away.

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the wicked and current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:9 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the sudden destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world. The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.

Got no time for you tomorrow so it can be your chance to claim avoidance. I haven't been posting as much during the week when the markets are open. I was wasting too much time on your nonsense and not enough time working. All is well now.

 

[The Light]

The day each were rescued total destruction came. Hello! You are fighting with the text. They are both likened onto Christ's one-and-only return. Pretribbers are seeing double all the time. Their vision is impaired through false teaching.

Just try explaining the two times Christ come in Revelation 14 and fit that into your one and only coming.

 

[WPM]

What are you talking about? There is a great tribulation that the Church will escape and there is a wrath of God that will begin when the 7th seal is opened.



Here is the sudden destruction that will occur during the one year wrath of God.

Rev 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.



Got no time for you tomorrow so it can be your chance to claim avoidance. I haven't been posting as much during the week when the markets are open. I was wasting too much time on your nonsense and not enough time working. All is well now.

We all believe in a great trib. What you cannot do is show us is a rapture passage that teachers that this occurs after our gathering to Jesus. You have nothing.

Where in the Bible does it teach "There is a great tribulation that the Church will escape"? You confuse the tribulation of God's people from Satan, which is ongoing, and will intensify at the end, with the wrath of God that destroys all the wicked when Jesus comes.

Where does it say there is "the one year wrath of God"?

This sums your beliefs up, it is all invented extra-biblical theories.

 

[WPM]

Just try explaining the two times Christ come in Revelation 14 and fit that into your one and only coming.

More avoidance. That is all you have.

 

[rebuilder 454]

More avoidance. That is all you have.

Lol
You just avoided his challenge to reconcile Rev 14 with your "one coming" theory.

You can not make this stuff up.
Irony blue ribbon award.
This has gone on for years.
Walking around with all that egg on your face and pretending it's not there. Man this is so hilarious

 

[WPM]

Lol
You just avoided his challenge to reconcile Rev 14 with your "one coming" theory.

You can not make this stuff up.
Irony blue ribbon award.
This has gone on for years.
Walking around with all that egg on your face and pretending it's not there. Man this is so hilarious

I already did that in #1921, and he already avoided the evidence that refutes Pretrib. That is his (and your) MO. I already responded to you the same and you avoided: MORE PROOF OF THE PRETRIB RAPTURE

 

[rebuilder 454]

This is not a local or limited harvest. This is an all-inclusive global harvest of the earth. Only a bias observer would think otherwise.

• This is indeed “the harvest of the earth” (Revelation 14:15), not of small Israel or of the 144,000.
• The “sickle” is “thrust” in “on the earth,” (Revelation 14:15), not just physical Israel, or of the 144,000.
• This results in “the earth” being “reaped” (Revelation 14:16).
• Christ gathers “the vine of the earth” (Revelation 14:18), not ethnic Israel, or of the 144,000.
• What happens to the recipients? Read: "the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.” They are destroyed! Is this what happens to your 144,000?

Well looky here

what we have here is a prime example of how we can torture the Bible to make it say most anything we want.
Now I wonder what the word first fruits means?
Would you care to take a crack at that one?Because, if you leave that out and then start your guessing game as you just demonstrated, we have a theory from a very distorted starting place.
Now a quick little teaching on first fruits would be, that there's no such thing as first fruits without a harvest .

main Harvest always follows first fruits. Then when you look at that limited amount of 144,000 ETHNIC JEWS, vividly described, and the tribes that they originated from, your entire deal Falls completely apart.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Note that ONLY the 144k ETHNIC JEWS ARE SEALED.
Postribbers hammer that around to reshape it to somehow fit their theory.
They need that to be redone to force fit it.

They tell me we are all sealed.
They are correct.
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit as property of heaven.

Now here is their dilemma;
The 144k are ALREADY SEALED in the same fashion as ANY BELIEVER.
SO, RIGHT THERE, their ENTIRE DEAL falls completely apart.

The blatant falsehoods of that foolish postrib rapture doctrine is so incredibly on display.
A babe in Christ with a Bible can easily see the ridiculousness of it.
Like shooting ducks in a barrel.

 

[WPM]

Well looky here

what we have here is a prime example of how we can torture the Bible to make it say most anything we want.
Now I wonder what the word first fruits means?
Would you care to take a crack at that one?Because, if you leave that out and then start your guessing game as you just demonstrated, we have a theory from a very distorted starting place.
Now a quick little teaching on first fruits would be, that there's no such thing as first fruits without a harvest .

main Harvest always follows first fruits. Then when you look at that limited amount of 144,000 ETHNIC JEWS, vividly described, and the tribes that they originated from, your entire deal Falls completely apart.

Revelation 14:1, 3-5 describes: “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads ... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

Let us start with a few absolutes.

1. As the redeemed of God, the 144,000 belong to Christ, and therefore His body the Church. We see that this company are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." They are before the Lamb. It says that "these are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." These are Christians! These are followers of Christ. They have a new song because of the new birth. Like us, these are they who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus.
2. This text is speaking of the heavenly "mount Sion." The 144,000 are “before the throne.” His throne is not on earth. It is in heaven. Jesus is definitely not physically on earth now. He is physically in heaven. The 144,000 are also said to be the “redeemed from the earth.” They have been caught up upon death to be with their Saviour. They are now "without fault before the throne of God.” Their earthly struggle with sin is now over. Their earthly sojourn is completed.
3. This scene occurs well before the Second Advent, not after.
4. The 144,000 thousand are "the firstfruits." You have obviously overlooked that important issue. You make them “the last-fruits” in order to make Premil fit. But it doesn't. This must surely point us to the 1st century. It would seem wrong to place them in some type of end time tribulation, which would render them the last-fruits and not the firstfruits.

Hebrews 12:18, 22-23 says of God’s people, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest…but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Mount Sion is heavenly. They are delivered from the earth. This is "the heavenly Jerusalem" not earthly Jerusalem as you imagine. The 144,000 are here found (in total) in heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The great multitude has new bodies. However, you can't possibly understand that because you think the 6th seal happens after the 7th seal..........I THINK.

It doesn't say they have new bodies. As for saying you think I have the 6th seal happening after the 7th seal...total nonsense. How can I have a reasonable discussion with someone who thinks I would believe that nonsense? You're not talking to someone like Douggg here who has the 7th trumpet sounding before the 5th trumpet.

No.

So, why can't you recognize that the great multitude are the souls of the dead in Christ? In Revelation 6:9-11 he talks about having seen the souls of those who were slain for the word of God. Why can't the great multitude he saw be the souls of the dead in Christ? He only ever mentions seeing the souls of believers in heaven (Rev 6:9-11, Rev 20:4) and not anyone with new bodies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In Noah's day, Noah enters the ark and all are surviving until the flood which is the wrath of God.
In Lot's day, the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

No unbelievers survived the flood or in Sodom. Jesus said it will be like that when He comes (Luke 17:26-30). But, you have some unbelievers surviving His wrath, which contradicts what Jesus indicated by comparing the wrath at His coming to the wrath in Noah's day by way of the flood and the wrath of Lot's day by way of fire upon Sodom.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

We can escape all these things which come to pass during the tribulation shown in Luke 21, Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

Which verses exactly in Luke 21 do you think describe "all these things which come to pass during the tribulation"?

Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. 29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Can you see here that Jesus indicated that we would still be here when "these things" that He talked about up to this point occur? That's why He said "when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.". If we were already taken off of the earth before that, then He wouldn't talk about us seeing these things come to pass. It seems that you think "these things which come to pass during the tribulation" include these things that Jesus said we would see come to pass, which does not make any sense.

Instead, it is the following things that Jesus said would come to pass that we should pray to be worthy to escape:

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Again, Jesus would not tell us to pray to escape the things that He said we would see come to pass, so it has to be that He's talking about the day that heaven and earth shall pass away and escaping that day when His wrath will come down "on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth". He's not saying to pray to escape the things that will happen before that day of His coming, but to escape His wrath that will come on that day. In other words, He is saying that we should pray to escape the "sudden destruction" from which unbelievers "shall not escape" on the day Christ returns, as Paul wrote about in 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3. That will involve the passing away of heaven and earth, as Peter taught in 2 Peter 3:10-12.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Revelation 14:1, 3-5 describes: “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads ... And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.”

Let us start with a few absolutes.

1. As the redeemed of God, the 144,000 belong to Christ, and therefore His body the Church. We see that this company are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." They are before the Lamb. It says that "these are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." These are Christians! These are followers of Christ. They have a new song because of the new birth. Like us, these are they who have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus.
2. This text is speaking of the heavenly "mount Sion." The 144,000 are “before the throne.” His throne is not on earth. It is in heaven. Jesus is definitely not physically on earth now. He is physically in heaven. The 144,000 are also said to be the “redeemed from the earth.” They have been caught up upon death to be with their Saviour. They are now "without fault before the throne of God.” Their earthly struggle with sin is now over. Their earthly sojourn is completed.
3. This scene occurs well before the Second Advent, not after.
4. The 144,000 thousand are "the firstfruits." You have obviously overlooked that important issue. You make them “the last-fruits” in order to make Premil fit. But it doesn't. This must surely point us to the 1st century. It would seem wrong to place them in some type of end time tribulation, which would render them the last-fruits and not the firstfruits.

Hebrews 12:18, 22-23 says of God’s people, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest…but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.”

Mount Sion is heavenly. They are delivered from the earth. This is "the heavenly Jerusalem" not earthly Jerusalem as you imagine. The 144,000 are here found (in total) in heaven.

Firstfuit JEWS.
Jesus is the firstfruits OF THE NEW COVENANT.
SO...KEEP STUDYING

 

[WPM]

Firstfuit JEWS.
Jesus is the firstfruits OF THE NEW COVENANT.
SO...KEEP STUDYING

The NT harvest has been ongoing for 2000 years. These were the firstfruits. Check it out. This forbids what you are teaching.

 

[WPM]

Note that ONLY the 144k ETHNIC JEWS ARE SEALED.
Postribbers hammer that around to reshape it to somehow fit their theory.
They need that to be redone to force fit it.

They tell me we are all sealed.
They are correct.
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit as property of heaven.

Now here is their dilemma;
The 144k are ALREADY SEALED in the same fashion as ANY BELIEVER.
SO, RIGHT THERE, their ENTIRE DEAL falls completely apart.

The blatant falsehoods of that foolish postrib rapture doctrine is so incredibly on display.
A babe in Christ with a Bible can easily see the ridiculousness of it.
Like shooting ducks in a barrel.

This is all personal opinion! You cannot address the very simple arguments that are presented to you. Stop avoiding and address what I wrote. It forbids your thesis.

 

[covenantee]

A babe in Christ with a Bible can easily see the ridiculousness of it.

A babe in Christ can easily see the risibility of 144K sex-crazed Jews trying to keep their minds on evangelism.

Toss your Darby/Scofield/dispen back in the round file from whence it came.

The Church and the 144,000

Revelation 7:3-4 describe the 144,000 as “sealed.” That description is reserved in the NT for believers in Christ – His Body and Bride – His Church:

2 Corinthians 1:21-22
Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge.

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30
Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.


The Revelation 7 passage is therefore conveying the insight that the OT Israelitish faithful obedient saints of God are included under the NT banner of the Church. This is further confirmed by the meanings of the names of the listed tribes and substitutes (Levi and Joseph replacing Dan and Ephraim), describing spiritual qualities and experiences of those who comprise the Church:
Judah means “praise” (Genesis 29:35)
Reuben means “see, a Son” (Genesis 29:32)
Gad means “fortunate” (Genesis 30:11)
Asher means “happy” (Genesis 30:13)
Naphtali means “wrestling” (Genesis 30:8)
Manasseh means “forgetting” (Genesis 41:51)
Simeon means “heard” (Genesis 29:33)
Levi means “attached” (Genesis 29:34)
Issachar means “wages” (Genesis 30:18)
Zebulon means “dwelling” (Genesis 30:20)
Joseph means “He will add” (Genesis 30:24)
Benjamin means “Son of the right hand” (Genesis 35:17–18)

Similarly, the meanings of the names of Dan and Ephraim convey the reasons for their exclusion:

Dan means “a serpent by the way”(Genesis 49:17)
Satan in the guise of the serpent was responsible for the fall of mankind in Genesis 3, and for the bruising of Messiah's heel in Scripture's first recorded prophecy of Genesis 3:15. It was the same serpent Satan whose head Messiah bruised at Calvary.

Ephraim means “fruitful in the land of mine affliction” (Genesis 41:52)
The reference to “the land of mine affliction” in Ephraim's name's meaning is to that of Egypt, which in Scripture is both a literal and spiritual reality and symbol of bondage. But the Church, God's Chosen People, do not inhabit a land of spiritual affliction and bondage. Rather, they inhabit the Heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Sion (Hebrews 12:22,23), located in the Heavenly Country that God has prepared for the faithful (Hebrews 11:16).

Of additional significance is the order in which the names are presented, differing from the usual presentation by order of birth. In particular, Judah appears first, in recognition of its role as the tribal progenitor of Christ, the Lion of Judah.

While rebellion and apostasy were repetitive afflictions of the OT Israelites, there were still thousands who remained faithful (1 Kings 19:18). Their number is depicted as 12, a scriptural value representing faithfulness; multiplied by 12, representing the faithful from each of the twelve tribes; multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number (Psalms 50:10; Psalms 91:7; Revelation 5:11) of the total faithful in Israel; thus, 144,000.

Revelation 14 continues the descriptions further reflecting the qualities and experiences of the redeemed – the Church. Absent here is any mention of tribal, ethnic, or other distinctions, thus conveying the reality of the inclusivity and unity of the NT Church which now embraces both Israelite and Gentile. Its number can also be depicted as 12, representing faithfulness; multipled by 12 representing the 12 faithful apostles, who with the prophets comprise the foundation of the NT church, with Christ as the Chief Cornerstone (Ephesians 2:20); multiplied by 1,000 representing the indeterminate but large number of the total faithful in the NT Church; thus, also 144,000.

The NT Church's inclusivity and unity are declared in the following:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall…

Colossians 3:11
Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.


The 144,00 are described as celibate, meaning that as the Bride of Christ, they are not defiled by adultery with the world (James 4:4). They sing a new song of deliverance and victory. They follow Christ wherever He goes. Their residence is heavenly Jerusalem on Mount Zion. (Hebrews 12:22)

No doubt about it…Christ and His Church are written all over the 144,000.

 

[The Light]

We all believe in a great trib. What you cannot do is show us is a rapture passage that teachers that this occurs after our gathering to Jesus.

Wow. You're right. This is shocking. I can't show you a rapture passage that teaches that the great tribulation occurs after our gathering to Jesus.

That of course is because the great tribulation occurs before the gathering from heaven and earth. Then the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God is the 7th seal. Tribulation is not wrath.

You have nothing.

I have the Word of God.

Where in the Bible does it teach "There is a great tribulation that the Church will escape"?

Matthew 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You confuse the tribulation of God's people from Satan, which is ongoing,

You confuse the great tribulation of those days, which happens during the 70 weeks of Daniel with tribulation that is ongoing.

and will intensify at the end, with the wrath of God that destroys all the wicked when Jesus comes.

Jesus comes first..............immediately after the tribulation of those days............at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. Tribulation is not wrath.

Where does it say there is "the one year wrath of God"?

How many times do I need to answer this question? This has to be at least the 5th time.

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

This occurs at the 6th seal.

Isiah 34
4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

This sums your beliefs up, it is all invented extra-biblical theories.

So what do you do with those two comings of Jesus shown in Revelation 14? Do we skip that chapter since you claim Jesus comes only once.

 

[Timtofly]

A great multitude of souls in heaven. John saw the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven, not anyone with immortal bodies (Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 20:4). Do you believe in soul sleep? Is that why you can't recognize that it's talking about their souls being in heaven?

Do you believe in the living dead? That is a soul walking around in heaven without a physical body? Lazarus came out of his grave with a physical body, and has had that same physical body since ascending to heaven on resurrection Sunday, when Jesus ascended after talking to Mary. All of the OT from Abraham's bosom physically ascended when Jesus arrived in heaven with the captivity led captive as the firstfruits in Paradise. No soul was left in Abraham's bosom, nor on earth, nor in heaven without a physical body. They did not physically die again, walking like you claim, around in a bodiless soul in Paradise.