Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

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David in NJ

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They call the Rapture of the Church both those dead and alive in Christ. We are told that we the church (those who are spirtually part of) willl not go through God's wrath as described in Rev. 6-19. It is supposed to be the Blessed Hope (Titus 2:13). trying to live through the Horror that is to come i Daniel's 70th week, is not a Blessed Hope.
We all AGREE and FIRMLY BELIEVE and are BLESSED to know that we have PEACE and Pre-Wrath Deliverance in the Lord Jesus Christ.

@Bladerunner @amigo de christo = Watch how the Holy Spirit Book Ends His Truth = 1 Thess 1:10 and 1 Thess 5:9

1 Thessalonians 1:10 "wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead—Jesus our deliverer from the coming wrath.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
These are the first and last chapters of 1 Thessalonians

@Bladerunner, ask yourself and Brother @amigo de christo as to what Truth is between the Book Ends of the Holy Spirit in 1 Thess
 
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Atarah

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That is correct. Just look at Romans 9:6-8, Ephesians 2:11-22 and Galatians 6:15-16 to see the criteria for being a spiritual Israelite. It's equated to being a child of God and of the promise which all Christians are.


I don't understand your question. The two have already become one new man according to scripture and it happened by way of the shed blood of Christ. How can any Christian not understand this elementary concept?

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

How much more clear can this be that the two (Jew and Gentile believers) have already become one new man? It says Jesus "has made the two groups one" and that we are now "fellow citizens" in the church with Jesus as the chief cornerstone.


You are mistaken. Read Ephesians 2:11-22 which explicitly teaches that the two have already been made one. How can you not understand this? The New Testament repeatedly teaches how there is "neither Jew nor Gentile" in the church and there is no difference between them in the church and that we are all one in Christ Jesus. You need to ask God for wisdom and start reading the New Testament.


That is absolutely false. That contradicts a ton of New Testament scripture, including Ephesians 2:11-22.

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Galatians 3:26 So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

1 Corinthians 12:Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

Colossians 3:11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. 12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.
None of your scripture references say we become Israelites.

You wrote, "How much more clear can this be that the two (Jew and Gentile believers) have already become one new man? It says Jesus "has made the two groups one" and that we are now "fellow citizens" in the church with Jesus as the chief cornerstone."

Your position is that we don't become one new man, but we all become part of the original old man.
 
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David in NJ

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None of your scripture references say we become Israelites.

You wrote, "How much more clear can this be that the two (Jew and Gentile believers) have already become one new man? It says Jesus "has made the two groups one" and that we are now "fellow citizens" in the church with Jesus as the chief cornerstone."

Your position is that we don't become one new man, but we all become part of the original old man.
ALL of scripture says BELIEVERS in the WORD become Israelites beginning in Genesis chapter 3

Exodus ch12 -
And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it. 44But every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it. 45A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it. 46In one house it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones. 47All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.
49One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.
 
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amigo de christo

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None of your scripture references say we become Israelites.

You wrote, "How much more clear can this be that the two (Jew and Gentile believers) have already become one new man? It says Jesus "has made the two groups one" and that we are now "fellow citizens" in the church with Jesus as the chief cornerstone."

Your position is that we don't become one new man, but we all become part of the original old man.
Not even close my near and dear friend . that aint saying UNBELIEVERS , it means BLEIEVING JEWS and GENTILES .
they the one new man in CHRIST . everything else , is under the power and sway of darkness .
SO i suggest to all , whether a hebrew or a gentile , WE GETS REAL BUSY pointing to GOD , and when i say GOD
that MEAN HIS CHRIST JESUS friend .
Here is a reminder from SAID JESUS to unbelieving jews , IF GOD WERE YOUR FATHER you would have LOVED ME
here is another reminder to them same unbeliving jews who said WE HAVE ONE FATHER ITS GOD ,
JESUS said ye are of your ................wait for it , father the DEVIL . yeah ITS GOSPEL PREACHING TIME
, TIME to remind any and all of the dire and i do mean DIRE and ABSOLUTE NEED TO BELIEVE ON JESUS THE CHRIST and
lets do this fast too .
 

amigo de christo

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ALL of scripture says BELIEVERS in the WORD become Israelites beginning in Genesis chapter 3

Exodus ch12 -
And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it. 44But every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it. 45A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it. 46In one house it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones. 47All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48And when a stranger [dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.
49One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.
many seem not to understand that not all of israel be OF ISRAEL .
so lets sum this up real fast . ANY AND ALL who do not BELIEVE the TESTIMONY OF GOD that HE GAVE OF CHRIST JESUS
THEY AINT OF ISRAEL at all . they in BONDAGE . now lift those hands up david , ITS LORD PRAISING TIME in the building .
 

David in NJ

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many seem not to understand that not all of israel be OF ISRAEL .
so lets sum this up real fast . ANY AND ALL who do not BELIEVE the TESTIMONY OF GOD that HE GAVE OF CHRIST JESUS
THEY AINT OF ISRAEL at all . they in BONDAGE . now lift those hands up david , ITS LORD PRAISING TIME in the building .
Did you SEE Exodus 12:43-49
this includes Brother @marks and @Atarah

Even under the OT Law a "stranger/Gentile" can become an Israelite.
How did a stranger/Gentile become a Israelite Citizen of the Commonwealth of Covenant???

PASSOVER = the Blood of the Passover Lamb = One Law for the Jew and the Gentile

How much more are we Eternally BIRTHED into the Israel of God by the BLOOD of JESUS the MESSIAH

My Birth-RIGHT is in Heaven Above, in the New Jerusalem at the Right Hand of God.

HalleluYAH
 
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amigo de christo

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ALL of scripture says BELIEVERS in the WORD become Israelites beginning in Genesis chapter 3

Exodus ch12 -
And the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it. 44But every man’s servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it. 45A sojourner and a hired servant shall not eat it. 46In one house it shall be eaten; you shall not carry any of the flesh outside the house, nor shall you break one of its bones. 47All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. 48And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.
49One law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you.
HERE is the LAW we do heed , trust and obey .
THIS IS MY BELOVED SON in whom i am well pleased , HEAR HIM . HEAR HIM . HEAR HIM .
the law is spiritual . Even the very law testified , as did the prophets and others OF THE COMING SAVOIR .
Let all that has breath praise and thank the glorious LORD and always remember THE JESUS is no minstir of sin
so if ones jesus seemeth to be an approver of sins , THEN please know and understand WHY that jesus gets NOT CAPS .
CAUSE IT AINT JESUS . Now let all that has breath both praise and thank the GLorious RISEN KING JESUS
LET all that draws breath Lift those hands in thunderous praise and many thanksgivings .
He who honors the SON , HONORS the FATHER .
 

amigo de christo

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Did you SEE Exodus 12:43-49
this includes Brother @marks and @Atarah

Even under the OT Law a "stranger/Gentile" can become an Israelite.
How did a stranger/Gentile become a Israelite Citizen of the Commonwealth of Covenant???

PASSOVER = the Blood of the Passover Lamb = One Law for the Jew and the Gentile

How much more are we Eternally BIRTHED into the Israel of God by the BLOOD of JESUS the MESSIAH

My Birth-RIGHT is in Heaven Above, in the New Jerusalem at the Right Hand of God.

HalleluYAH
exactly . ephraim and mannesah had a gentile mama .
KING david himself had a gentile grandmother who bore Obed and Obed sired JESSE and jesse , david .
Ruth was told by noami , go back to your peoples and etc
RUTH said your GOD IS MY GOD your people MY people . Rahab the harlot became tied into the lineage of Israel too .
AND SHE was a gentile . Folks forget things , or more so they dont even read the bible .
 

David in NJ

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exactly . ephraim and mannesah had a gentile mama .
KING david himself had a gentile grandmother who bore Obed and Obed sired JESSE and jesse , david .
Ruth was told by noami , go back to your peoples and etc
RUTH said your GOD IS MY GOD your people MY people . Rahab the harlot became tied into the lineage of Israel too .
AND SHE was a gentile . Folks forget things , or more so they dont even read the bible .
HalleluYAH
 

David in NJ

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exactly . ephraim and mannesah had a gentile mama .
KING david himself had a gentile grandmother who bore Obed and Obed sired JESSE and jesse , david .
Ruth was told by noami , go back to your peoples and etc
RUTH said your GOD IS MY GOD your people MY people . Rahab the harlot became tied into the lineage of Israel too .
AND SHE was a gentile . Folks forget things , or more so they dont even read the bible .
ONE Law foretells and leads us to ONE Savior and ONE Gospel for the Jew & Gentile
 

David in NJ

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exactly . ephraim and mannesah had a gentile mama .
KING david himself had a gentile grandmother who bore Obed and Obed sired JESSE and jesse , david .
Ruth was told by noami , go back to your peoples and etc
RUTH said your GOD IS MY GOD your people MY people . Rahab the harlot became tied into the lineage of Israel too .
AND SHE was a gentile . Folks forget things , or more so they dont even read the bible .
OH YEAH, it's Holy Spirit Praise and Rejoice Time
 

amigo de christo

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ONE Law foretells and leads us to ONE Savior and ONE Gospel
notice what it says in genesis , abraham KEPT MY LAW . when the law itself had not yet even been given by moses .
Abraham , BELIEVED GOD .
and IF GOD said do HE DID and GOD SHOWED abraham something
on that there moutain
JESUS later says something about mr abraham, HE SEEN MY DAY , HE SAW MY DAY HE SAW MY DAY
and HE rejoiced and was GLAD . go back and read the words GOD tells To abraham
when abraham did not withhold HIS ONLY SON . AND then REMEMBER THE NAME abraham GAVE that MOUTIAIN .
JEHOVAH JIREH . IN the MOUNT of the LORD it shall be seen , shall be PROVIDED . TO abraham WAS THE GOSPEL preached .
YES Indeed my friend . YES INDEED . TO THE LORD GOD ALL MIGHTY be all GLOR Y and ALL HONOR .
HE HAS SAVED HIS PEOPLES and made the two folds ONE . PRAISE BE TO THE KING OF KINGS and LORD of LORDS .
oh , and always remember INTERFAITH cometh of ANTI CHRIST . keep that in mind cause its gonna get worse .
 

Bladerunner

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OF course my dear friend . OF course we wont go through the wrath of GOD . BUT I SPEAK OF THE ALL OUT
wrath of the beast . WHO DO COME AGAINST the saints .
Yes and No! The wrath of GOD (not the beast) for He is sovereign and the beast can only do what he is allowed to do. The Church (His Body, His Bride) both living and the dead members will not go through Daniel's 70th week. There are Saints that will go through this period and they are call the tribulation saints as seen in Rev 6:9.....Notice, God tells them :"that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Everyone of the Tribulation Saints will have to die at the hand of the beast while being 'in Christ'. Notice that in Rev 4:4.."Around about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." These elders represent the millions of members of the Church that was started at Pentecost. In Mat 16:18.."And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Pentecost, fifty days after the Resurrection of Christ, Acts 2:1.."And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place." Acts 2:41.."Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

you said: I never said WE go through the wrath of GOD

The Wrath of GOD is Daniel's 70th week..Rev 6:1.."And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see." The Lamb of GOD opens every seal and brings forth the four horsemen. The first is the Anti-christ to conquer through peace, etc. Yes, it is all of God's Wrath and Judgements.
 

amigo de christo

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Yes and No! The wrath of GOD (not the beast) for He is sovereign and the beast can only do what he is allowed to do. The Church (His Body, His Bride) both living and the dead members will not go through Daniel's 70th week. There are Saints that will go through this period and they are call the tribulation saints as seen in Rev 6:9.....Notice, God tells them :"that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled." Everyone of the Tribulation Saints will have to die at the hand of the beast while being 'in Christ'. Notice that in Rev 4:4.."Around about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold." These elders represent the millions of members of the Church that was started at Pentecost. In Mat 16:18.."And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Pentecost, fifty days after the Resurrection of Christ, Acts 2:1.."And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place." Acts 2:41.."Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."

you said: I never said WE go through the wrath of GOD

The Wrath of GOD is Daniel's 70th week..Rev 6:1.."And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see." The Lamb of GOD opens every seal and brings forth the four horsemen. The first is the Anti-christ to conquer through peace, etc. Yes, it is all of God's Wrath and Judgements.
sorry you had to write all that , but dont expect me to buy it .
PRE tribbers call them TRIBULATION saints to help support ITS OWN VIEW . you do realize that .... right , maybe , oh i hope so .
Did you know you can actually see how clear it is
specially , wait for it , when you read the second letter to the thessalonians pay close attention to THE FIRST CHAPTER . most miss it . .
You gonna see it real clear . ITS A ONE TIME EVENT . one time event . he cometh for HIS CHURCH
and lays down HIS WRATH against the ungodly , who persecuted the church friend . PAUL knew it was a one time event .
Even peter knew it . THEY all did . pre trib dont . BUT JESUS TAUGHT IT , pre trib dont , but the apostels taught it
Are
 

Bladerunner

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yeah , rather odd . JESUS said BLESSED are YOU when men persecute you ,
not to mention , look at all those tribulations since the days the church began till now .
LOTS OF BLOOD flow . rather odd today folks seem to think THAT AINT FOR US . NO , we BLESSED
we TOO BLESSED to be persecuted for GOD . something has went dead wrong with many people .
BLESSED are you WHEN men shall hate you , persecute you , EVEN KILL you for my name sake .
Guess peter , paul , james and others DIDNT KNOW A THING about THE BLESSED HOPE . yeah right .
THINK .
men are deceiving us . THEY aint preparing anyone for anything , rather in truth most have already
been headed right into and towards the very LIE . this is not good friend . I just want to help you .
You go to the bible and enjoy reading it again for yourself . THings will clear up in time .
we all have tribulations on earth everyday and twice on Sunday for some.Yet the Wrath of GOD that I am speaking of is so terrible that over half of the earth's population will die before the scroll and trumpet judgements are finished. I know you have been taught otherwise but look at Revelation, It is in Chronological order for beginning to the end. If one reads it literally they cannot come to any other conclusion.
 

amigo de christo

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we all have tribulations on earth everyday and twice on Sunday for some.Yet the Wrath of GOD that I am speaking of is so terrible that over half of the earth's population will die before the scroll and trumpet judgements are finished. I know you have been taught otherwise but look at Revelation, It is in Chronological order for beginning to the end. If one reads it literally they cannot come to any other conclusion.
l was taught . and what church do you suppose taught me .
cause the last time i checked i simply read and read and read MY own bible .
Yes sir . i actually was not taught anything from the churches . do that suprise you my friend .
Here is my story .
Yes i had heard the gospel at age four by my mama , then again at age eight
at a church i had visited while waiting for my friends .
Then over the years i think at age fourteen i had been invited to a jay strack preaching .
Anyway years and years passed and went . THEN on may thirtieth
Suddenly a stirring began in me . And all of sudden i remembered the gospel and had this REAL DEEP
hunger for GOD . so He put me in the bible , and i read it every day , hours daily
a few times even eight hours a day , no sir i am not boasting in me just explaining .
Any way i have loved to read it and do so and have done so daily and even with others .
WOW may thirtieth . cant believe its been over EIGHTEEN years ago .
YOU know what , I SUGGEST you do the same for YOU and do not read it through mens stuff .
JUST read it for you . man i tell ya , the more you read it the more you just gonna enjoy reading it .
YOU be blessed now . and please understand i am not being mean when i tell you
I WONT be following pre trib . my advice to you , dont just believe that pre trib , , , just really love and read the bible for yourself .
 
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David in NJ

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we all have tribulations on earth everyday and twice on Sunday for some.Yet the Wrath of GOD that I am speaking of is so terrible that over half of the earth's population will die before the scroll and trumpet judgements are finished. I know you have been taught otherwise but look at Revelation, It is in Chronological order for beginning to the end. If one reads it literally they cannot come to any other conclusion.
Revelation repeats Itself

Revelation 6:12-17 is the SAME as Revelation 11:15-19 is the SAME as Revelation 19:19-21

Revelation has multiple revealings of the Second Coming just as the OT has multiple prophecies of His 1st and 2nd Comings

Did you SEE this - Revelation 1:9

I, John, your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance that are in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and my testimony about Jesus.
 

Bladerunner

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l was taught . and what church do you suppose taught me .
cause the last time i checked i simply read and read and read MY own bible .
Yes sir . i actually was not taught anything from the churches . do that suprise you my friend .
Here is my story .
Yes i had heard the gospel at age four by my mama , then again at age eight
at a church i had visited while waiting for my friends .
Then over the years i think at age fourteen i had been invited to a jay strack preaching .
Anyway years and years passed and went . THEN on may thirtieth
Suddenly a stirring began in me . And all of sudden i remembered the gospel and had this REAL DEEP
hunger for GOD . so He put me in the bible , and i read it every day , hours daily
a few times even eight hours a day , no sir i am not boasting in me just explaining .
Any way i have loved to read it and do so and have done so daily and even with others .
WOW may thirtieth . cant believe its been over EIGHTEEN years ago .
YOU know what , I SUGGEST you do the same for YOU and do not read it through mens stuff .
JUST read it for you . man i tell ya , the more you read it the more you just gonna enjoy reading it .
YOU be blessed now . and please understand i am not being mean when i tell you
I WONT be following pre trib . my advice to you , dont just believe that pre trib , , , just really love and read the bible for yourself .
rem, this when millions of People disappear from the earth. I pray God has touched your heart and brought you around to the "All of GOD and None of man" side before then. Good day.
 

amigo de christo

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rem, this when millions of People disappear from the earth. I pray God has touched your heart and brought you around to the "All of GOD and None of man" side before then. Good day.
Ya dont see me preaching interfaith common ground unity false love stuff .
I sure dont seems to see me hardly anyone helping me TO REMIND ALL about the DIRE NEED to BELIEVE
on JESUS the CHRIST . and when i expose interfaith , the social gospel , the finding common ground crap
the fact that all other religons are false . I SURE DO have some folks coming right after me .
YOU MIGHT KNOW SOME . it aint me preaching some other gospel and giving out some other hope
But thanks for the concern for my welfare , JUST MAKE SURE you aint one of those who follows
this interfaith , finding common ground , abraham peace accords , bridge builders , tearing down walls
doctrines that diivide crap . cause if you are , YOU are being led RIGHT TO THE LIE of ANTI CHRIST and HIS false love plan .
 
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