What is the basis for the unbeliever's condemnation?

[KUWN]

I have intentionally made the topic rather vague to bring out the two aspects of condemnation. There are two, distinct condemnations mentioned in Scripture. The first condemnation is called 'positional' condemnation. This is given to each person born into the world. In other words, it is the condemnation of being "in Adam." See Romans 5 for the contrast between Christ and Adam's positional truth. God condemns each person who enters this world with positional condemnation (i.e., in Adam). With this positional condemnation, we are immediately born qualified to be the recipients of God's grace and mercy. This is illustrated in Rom 11.32.

The other condemnation is 'eternal' condemnation. This is what happens when a person rejects Christ as Savior, see Matt 12.37. A person is eternally condemned by rejecting Jesus as Savior. It is by his words that he is condemned. The important thing to remember is nobody is born eternally condemned, only positional condemnation. As an illustration of this, see 2 Sam 12. David's new born child died and went to Paradise. This is why David says he will see his son again, because there is no basic for the child's eternal condemnation, only positional condemnation.

Another important point to bring out is that unbelievers are not eternally condemned for their personal sins. All sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross. That is why the gospel is the good news to unbelievers. The issue is no longer sin, but a Son. Go to any judgment passage for believers or unbelievers, you will not see the word sin mentioned. For the believer, he goes to the Rewards Ceremony (mistranslated Judgment Seat of Christ) after being rewarded for his works. For the unbeliever, he goes to the Lake of Fire based on his works (his works will not get him into heaven). Not by works of righteousness which we have done...

I will reread this post after I get back tonight. Didn't have time to edit it yet.

 

[St. SteVen]

The other condemnation is 'eternal' condemnation. This is what happens when a person rejects Christ as Savior, see Matt 12.37. A person is eternally condemned by rejecting Jesus as Savior. It is by his words that he is condemned. The important thing to remember is nobody is born eternally condemned, only positional condemnation.

Interesting topic, thanks.

This view of "eternal" condemnation is most troubling. If true, it seems to be the most dangerous thing imaginable to share Christ with anyone, thus putting them in eternal peril if they refuse the "free gift" of salvation. ???

What a heartless offer if we know full well that if they aren't interested they will burn for all eternity. Is this what God is about? His plan for humankind? To send a savior that he might damn the majority, knowing full well they will not receive Him.

--- PARODY ---

Person #1: Receive the free gift of eternal life.
Person #2: No thanks.
Person #1: I said it was free.
Person #2: There must be some strings attached.
Person #1: Well, of course.
Person #2: It's not a free gift then, right?
Person #1: You had better take it... or else!
Person #2: Say what?
Person #1: Otherwise you will be incinerated!
Person #2: What sort of free gift is that?

Indeed.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

What a heartless offer if we know full well that if they aren't interested they will burn for all eternity. Is this what God is about? His plan for humankind? To send a savior that he might damn the majority, knowing full well they will not receive Him.

Even more troubling is the perception most would have that they are being asked to join the church.
There are plenty of good reasons to not want to have ANYTHING to do with the institutional church and Christians in general.
So, it seems that "rejecting" Christ is cloaked in rejecting the church. With eternal condemnation as the consequence.

Furthermore, most Christians would shrug this off, saying: "That's just the way it is."
(I've got mine; to hell with everyone else.) I can't imagine that God would honor that attitude.

--- PARODY ---

Christian: Do you know Jesus? (a very good question)
Prospect: I've heard of him. (I need to get away fast)
Christian: But do you know him personally? (another good question)
Prospect: I've heard of that too. (I don't like where this is going)
Christian: You need to invite him into your life. (smooth)
Prospect: Why would I want to do that? (shields up, battle mode)
Christian: Because of your sin. (Careful. get ready to sink the hook)
Prospect: My sin? (run feet, run)
Christian: Yes. We are all born sinners in need of forgiveness. (steady...)
Prospect: I've heard of that too. (feet, why aren't you running?)
Christian: Jesus died to pay for our sin. (keep going)
Prospect: Okay, hang on... do you want me to join a church? (regaining control)
Christian: Well, that's part of it. But let's not jump ahead... (careful...)
Prospect: If it involves joining a church, I am not interested. (there, I said it)
Christian: Why would that be a problem? (this is going down hill fast)
Prospect: I don't want to join a church, or be a "Christian".
Christian: So, you are rejecting Christ? (gotcha)
Prospect: No. I am rejecting Christianity. (Yes, I will escape this encounter)
Christian: But... rejecting Christianity is the same as rejecting Christ. (???)
Prospect: I think Gandhi got it right. (now you are toast)
Christian: Say what? (Houston, we have a problem)
Prospect: Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. ..." (gotcha)
Christian: Well, you should focus on Jesus, not on Christians. (Mayday, Mayday...)
Prospect: Christianity obviously doesn't work. (winning this argument)
Christian: Well, it can... (going down fast)
Prospect: Sorry, I'm not interested. (ha, made short work of this)
Christian: There are consequences for rejecting Christ. (last ditch effort)
Prospect: Like going to hell? (I'm so done with this)
Christian: Well, yes... (gulp)
Prospect: I'm so done with this. Goodbye. (and good riddance)
Christian: (sigh)

[

 

[Bob Estey]

I have intentionally made the topic rather vague to bring out the two aspects of condemnation. There are two, distinct condemnations mentioned in Scripture. The first condemnation is called 'positional' condemnation. This is given to each person born into the world. In other words, it is the condemnation of being "in Adam." See Romans 5 for the contrast between Christ and Adam's positional truth. God condemns each person who enters this world with positional condemnation (i.e., in Adam). With this positional condemnation, we are immediately born qualified to be the recipients of God's grace and mercy. This is illustrated in Rom 11.32.

The other condemnation is 'eternal' condemnation. This is what happens when a person rejects Christ as Savior, see Matt 12.37. A person is eternally condemned by rejecting Jesus as Savior. It is by his words that he is condemned. The important thing to remember is nobody is born eternally condemned, only positional condemnation. As an illustration of this, see 2 Sam 12. David's new born child died and went to Paradise. This is why David says he will see his son again, because there is no basic for the child's eternal condemnation, only positional condemnation.

Another important point to bring out is that unbelievers are not eternally condemned for their personal sins. All sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross. That is why the gospel is the good news to unbelievers. The issue is no longer sin, but a Son. Go to any judgment passage for believers or unbelievers, you will not see the word sin mentioned. For the believer, he goes to the Rewards Ceremony (mistranslated Judgment Seat of Christ) after being rewarded for his works. For the unbeliever, he goes to the Lake of Fire based on his works (his works will not get him into heaven). Not by works of righteousness which we have done...

I will reread this post after I get back tonight. Didn't have time to edit it yet.

Life can be most unpleasant, if we make the wrong choices in life. The Lord instructs how to avoid those choices. Then we choose whether or not to obey his instructions.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

I have intentionally made the topic rather vague to bring out the two aspects of condemnation. There are two, distinct condemnations mentioned in Scripture. The first condemnation is called 'positional' condemnation. This is given to each person born into the world. In other words, it is the condemnation of being "in Adam." See Romans 5 for the contrast between Christ and Adam's positional truth. God condemns each person who enters this world with positional condemnation (i.e., in Adam). With this positional condemnation, we are immediately born qualified to be the recipients of God's grace and mercy. This is illustrated in Rom 11.32.

The other condemnation is 'eternal' condemnation. This is what happens when a person rejects Christ as Savior, see Matt 12.37. A person is eternally condemned by rejecting Jesus as Savior. It is by his words that he is condemned. The important thing to remember is nobody is born eternally condemned, only positional condemnation. As an illustration of this, see 2 Sam 12. David's new born child died and went to Paradise. This is why David says he will see his son again, because there is no basic for the child's eternal condemnation, only positional condemnation.

Another important point to bring out is that unbelievers are not eternally condemned for their personal sins. All sins were paid for by Christ on the Cross. That is why the gospel is the good news to unbelievers. The issue is no longer sin, but a Son. Go to any judgment passage for believers or unbelievers, you will not see the word sin mentioned. For the believer, he goes to the Rewards Ceremony (mistranslated Judgment Seat of Christ) after being rewarded for his works. For the unbeliever, he goes to the Lake of Fire based on his works (his works will not get him into heaven). Not by works of righteousness which we have done...

I will reread this post after I get back tonight. Didn't have time to edit it yet.

Fellow Christian, where did you get these categories, which I've never heard of? I prefer those categories of Paul, who says that our rejection as humans of our Creator condemns all of us (Romans 1:18--3:20), the Father's condemnation is lifted and put on Jesus on the cross by grace through his gift of faith (Romans 3:21--11:36), and our lives lived for the Father's glory in gratitude for Jesus' victory demonstrate that he no longer condemns us as our Judge (Romans 12-16).

 

[Johann]

Fellow Christian, where did you get these categories, which I've never heard of? I prefer those categories of Paul, who says that our rejection as humans of our Creator condemns all of us (Romans 1:18--3:20), the Father's condemnation is lifted and put on Jesus on the cross by grace through his gift of faith (Romans 3:21--11:36), and our lives lived for the Father's glory in gratitude for Jesus' victory demonstrate that he no longer condemns us as our Judge (Romans 12-16).

It is what is called-"Pontificating"

J.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

It is what is called-"Pontificating"

J.

What do you mean, Johann? I would love to discuss it, but I don't get your response.

 

[Johann]

What do you mean, Johann? I would love to discuss it, but I don't get your response.

Wasn't addressed to you brother.

J.

 

[Johann]

What do you mean, Johann? I would love to discuss it, but I don't get your response.

Always ready to discuss anything-would you say Calvin and his Institutes holds water?

J.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Wasn't addressed to you brother.

J.

Okay.

 

[quietthinker]

What is the basis for the unbeliever's condemnation?​

Their determined wilfulness in rejecting God's judgement.
.....and what is God's judgement? is it not to exonerate the fallen race....not because they deserve it or earned it or are worthy in any form. They are justified by his Grace

 

[Johann]

What is the basis for the unbeliever's condemnation?​

Their determined wilfulness in rejecting God's judgement.
.....and what is God's judgement? is it not to exonerate the fallen race....not because they deserve it or earned it or are worthy in any form. They are justified by his Grace

Joh 3:36 The one trusting in the son has [life eternal]; but the one resisting the son shall not see the life, but the anger/wrath of God remains upon him.
He that believeth not (ὁ ἀπειθῶν)
More correctly, as Rev., obeyeth not. Disbelief is regarded in its active manifestation, disobedience. The verb πείθω means to persuade, to cause belief, to induce one to do something by persuading, and so runs into the meaning of to obey, properly as the result of persuasion. See on Act_5:29. Compare 1Pe_4:17; Rom_2:8; Rom_11:30, Rom_11:31. Obedience, however, includes faith. Compare Rom_1:5, the obedience of faith.

Shall not see (οὐκ ὄψεται)

Compare the future tense with the present “hath eternal life,” and the simple life with the fully developed idea eternal life. He who believes is within the circle of the life of God, which is essentially eternal. His life “is hid with Christ in God.” Life eternal is to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent. Hence, to such an one, eternal life is not merely something future. It is a present possession. He hath it.

The unbelieving and disobedient, instead of having eternal life, shall not have life: shall not even see it (compare see the kingdom of God, Joh_3:3). He shall have no perception of life simply considered, much less of eternal life, the full and complex development of life.

The wrath of God (ὀργὴ τοῦ Θεοῦ)

Both ὀργὴ and θυμός are used in the New Testament for wrath or anger, and without any commonly observed distinction. Ὁργη denotes a deeper and more permanent sentiment; a settled habit of mind; while θυμός is a more turbulent, but temporary agitation.

Both words are used in the phrase wrath of God, which commonly denotes a distinct manifestation of God's judgment (Rom_1:18; Rom_3:5; Rom_9:22; Rom_12:19). Ὁργὴ (not θυμός) also appears in the phrase the wrath to come (Mat_3:7; Luk_3:7; 1Th_2:16, etc.). Compare wrath of the Lamb (Rev_6:16).

Abideth (μένει)
The present tense.

As the believer hath life, so the unbeliever hath wrath abiding on him. He lives continually in an economy which is alienated from God, and which, in itself, must be habitually the subject of God's displeasure and indignation.
Vincent.

Since the natural man, however gifted, moral, or refined, is absolutely blind to spiritual truth and impotent to enter the kingdom, a new birth through Christ as the channel and the Holy Spirit as the power is an absolute necessity. Heaven is a prepared place for a prepared people. The only gateway to it is—Jesus.

J.

 

[KUWN]

Fellow Christian, where did you get these categories, which I've never heard of? I prefer those categories of Paul, who says that our rejection as humans of our Creator condemns all of us (Romans 1:18--3:20), the Father's condemnation is lifted and put on Jesus on the cross by grace through his gift of faith (Romans 3:21--11:36), and our lives lived for the Father's glory in gratitude for Jesus' victory demonstrate that he no longer condemns us as our Judge (Romans 12-16).

Bruce-Leiter
We are miles apart. I can't make heads or tails out of your post. Yes, unbelievers are eternally condemned for rejecting the Creator. Can't make out the rest of what you say. The terms I am using are common terms in academia. Sorry I didn't make much sense.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

What is the basis for the unbeliever's condemnation?​

Their determined wilfulness in rejecting God's judgement.
.....and what is God's judgement? is it not to exonerate the fallen race....not because they deserve it or earned it or are worthy in any form. They are justified by his Grace

Where do you find that basis in the Bible?

 

[Johann]

Where do you find that basis in the Bible?

Ultimate Universalism.

J.

 

[KUWN]

Ultimate Universalism.

J.

I must admit I chuckled when I saw this answer. No, not Universalism. Far from it

 

[Johann]

I must admit I chuckled when I saw this answer. No, not Universalism. Far from it

Why don't you ask @St. SteVen @KUWN?

J.

 

[quietthinker]

Where do you find that basis in the Bible?

Roman 3:23-24
'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus'.

Titus 3:7.
'Because of his grace he made us right in his sight and gave us confidence that we will inherit eternal life'

There are many others Bruce. Two will suffice for now.

 

[Bruce-Leiter]

Roman 3:23-24
'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus'.

Titus 3:7.
'Because of his grace he made us right in his sight and gave us confidence that we will inherit eternal life'

There are many others Bruce. Two will suffice for now.

What does the second "all" mean in contrast to the first one? Every single individual or all believers? When you compare other Scriptures with Romans 3:23-24, the "all" has to mean all believers are justified. Do you think that God is only a God of love and grace or also a God who dispenses justice in punishing unbelief as the just Judge of all humans? He has both qualities, to which many passages attest.

 

[quietthinker]

What does the second "all" mean in contrast to the first one? Every single individual or all believers? When you compare other Scriptures with Romans 3:23-24, the "all" has to mean all believers are justified. Do you think that God is only a God of love and grace or also a God who dispenses justice in punishing unbelief as the just Judge of all humans? He has both qualities, to which many passages attest.

All means All Bruce. Believers are the ones who take advantage. Unbelievers refuse what has been done for them and given to them.

God's justice is deliverance. Man's justice is payback, to put it roughly.

Paul went to the Gentile communities announcing Salvation IN Jesus. It was good news for the alienated.....and the 'alienated' were all Gentiles and those deemed 'sinners' by those who considered themselves privileged.

Unbelief in God's gob smacking generosity is the great sin which alienates men from God rather than God from men

It was 'while we were yet sinners that Christ died for the ungodly' ie, unbelievers in the goodness, generosity and kindness of the greatest lover in Eternity. It totally nullifies Satans claim that God needs and requires appeasing in some form.