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covenantee

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We are talking about the fact that God chose a race of people
You are talking about the myth that God "chose a race of people".

God never "chose a race of people", because Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles throughout its existence. Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22

Your zionist racism is a bankrupt vacuity both Scripturally and scientifically.

Genetically, you and I and everyone on the planet are both Jew and Gentile, because after thousands of years of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, Jewish DNA is ubiquitous throughout humanity, and Gentile DNA is ubiquitous throughout humanity.

It matters not to God, because God is not a racist. Acts 10:34,35

He cannot be contorted into one, despite your most desperate efforts.

Corroborated empirically by the Jewish community itself (identified today by culture and religion, not by genetics).

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places
Jewish-Roots Arabs in Israel
Tracing the lost tribes to Jewish communities in Africa
Nigeria's Igbo Jews: 'Lost tribe' of Israel? - CNN
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Demonstrated mathematically.

Example of ancestral genetic ubiquity:

Charlemagne’s DNA and Our Universal Royalty

BY CARL ZIMMER

Nobody in my past was hugely famous, at least that I know of. I vaguely recall that an ancestor of mine who shipped over on the Mayflower distinguished himself by falling out of the ship and having to get fished out of the water. He might be notable, I guess, but hardly famous. It is much more fun to think that I am a bloodline descendant of Charlemagne. And in 1999, Joseph Chang gave me permission to think that way.

Chang was not a genealogist who had decided to make me his personal project. Instead, he is a statistician at Yale who likes to think of genealogy as a mathematical problem. When you draw your genealogy, you make two lines from yourself back to each of your parents. Then you have to draw two lines for each of them, back to your four grandparents. And then eight great-grandparents, sixteen great-great-grandparents, and so on. But not so on for very long. If you go back to the time of Charlemagne, forty generations or so, you should get to a generation of a trillion ancestors. That’s about two thousand times more people than existed on Earth when Charlemagne was alive.

The only way out of this paradox is to assume that our ancestors are not independent of one another. That is, if you trace their ancestry back, you loop back to a common ancestor. We’re not talking about first-cousin stuff here–more like twentieth-cousin. This means that instead of drawing a tree that fans out exponentially, we need to draw a web-like tapestry.

In a paper he published in 1999 [pdf], Chang analyzed this tapestry mathematically. If you look at the ancestry of a living population of people, he concluded, you’ll eventually find a common ancestor of all of them. That’s not to say that a single mythical woman somehow produced every European by magically laying a clutch of eggs. All this means is that as you move back through time, sooner or later some of the lines in the genealogy will cross, meeting at a single person.

As you go back further in time, more of those lines cross as you encounter more common ancestors of the living population. And then something really interesting happens. There comes a point at which, Chang wrote, “all individuals who have any descendants among the present-day individuals are actually ancestors of all present-day individuals.”

In 2002, the journalist Steven Olson wrote an article in the Atlantic about Chang’s work. To put some empirical meat on the abstract bones of Chang’s research, Olson considered a group of real people–living Europeans.

The most recent common ancestor of every European today (except for recent immigrants to the Continent) was someone who lived in Europe in the surprisingly recent past—only about 600 years ago. In other words, all Europeans alive today have among their ancestors the same man or woman who lived around 1400. Before that date, according to Chang’s model, the number of ancestors common to all Europeans today increased, until, about a thousand years ago, a peculiar situation prevailed: 20 percent of the adult Europeans alive in 1000 would turn out to be the ancestors of no one living today (that is, they had no children or all their descendants eventually died childless); each of the remaining 80 percent would turn out to be a direct ancestor of every European living today.

Suddenly, my pedigree looked classier: I am a descendant of Charlemagne. Of course, so is every other European. By the way, I’m also a descendant of Nefertiti. And so are you, and everyone else on Earth today. Chang figured that out by expanding his model from living Europeans to living humans, and getting an estimate of 3400 years instead of a thousand for the all-ancestor generation.

Things have changed a lot in the fourteen years since Chang published his first paper on ancestry. Scientists have amassed huge databases of genetic information about people all over the world. These may not be the same thing as a complete genealogy of the human race, but geneticists can still use them to tackle some of the same questions that intrigued Chang.

Recently, two geneticists, Peter Ralph of the University of Southern California and Graham Coop of the University of California at Davis, decided to look at the ancestry of Europe. They took advantage of a compilation of information about 2257 people from across the continent. Scientists had examined half a million sites in each person’s DNA, creating a distinctive list of genetic markers for each of them.

You can use this kind of genetic information to make some genealogical inferences, but you have to know what you’re dealing with. Your DNA is not a carbon copy of your parents’. Each time they made eggs or sperm, they shuffled the two copies of each of their chromosomes and put one in the cell. Just as a new deck gets more scrambled the more times you shuffle it, chromosomes get more shuffled from one generation to the next.

This means that if you compare two people’s DNA, you will find some chunks that are identical in sequence. The more closely related people are, the bigger the chunks you’ll find. This diagram shows how two first cousins share a piece of DNA that’s identical by descent (IBD for short).

Ralph and Coop identified 1.9 million of these long shared segments of DNA shared by at least two people in their study. They then used the length of each segment to estimate how long ago it arose from a common ancestor of the living Europeans.

Their results, published today in PLOS Biology, both confirm Chang’s mathematical approach and enrich it. Even within the past thousand years, Ralph and Coop found, people on opposite sides of the continent share a lot of segments in common–so many, in fact, that it’s statistically impossible for them to have gotten them all from a single ancestor. Instead, someone in Turkey and someone in England have to share a lot of ancestors. In fact, as Chang suspected, the only way to explain the DNA is to conclude that everyone who lived a thousand years ago who has any descendants today is an ancestor of every European. Charlemagne for everyone!

If you compare two people in Turkey, you’ll find bigger shared segments of DNA, which isn’t surprising. Since they live in the same country, chances are they have more recent ancestors, and more of them. But there is a rich, intriguing pattern to the number of shared segments among Europeans. People across Eastern Europe, for example, have a larger set of shared segments than people from within single countries in Western Europe. That difference may be the signature of a big expansion of the Slavs.

Ralph and Coop’s study may provide a new tool for reconstructing the history of humans on every continent.


How does God distinguish genetic Jews from genetic Jews?

It matters not one whit.

Because God has only two covenant criteria.

Two spiritual genes.

Faith and obedience.

Abraham's Spiritual DNA.

And nothing else.
 
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CadyandZoe

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More than you and I.

I agree.

Their adoption didn't save them from hell.
You misunderstand. Paul coined the term "adoption as sons" to indicate salvation. He tells the Ephesians that "the adoption as sons" (Eph. 1:5) becomes evident in those whom God has poured out his Holy Spirit as a down payment. (Eph. 1:1-14) Glorification is our inheritance. (Eph. 1:11)

In his letter to the Romans, Paul states that the "adoption as sons" (meaning eternal life) is for his fellow Israelites (Romans 9:4). Since not all of Israel was being saved during Paul's time, he raises the question of God's faithfulness (Romans 9:6). He then spends the next few chapters explaining how God will fulfill his promise to Israel.

In chapter 11, Paul asks and answers two key questions: Did God abandon his people, the Jews? (Rom. 11:1) And did God abandon national Israel? (Rom. 11:11) The answer to both questions is no. God still has a place and a purpose for Israel in our future when he removes ungodliness from Jacob. (Rom 11:25-27)
 

CadyandZoe

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You are talking about the myth that God "chose a race of people".
It is not a myth. The idea that God chose a race of people is an unambiguous teaching of the Bible.
God never "chose a race of people", because Israel was comprised of both Jews and Gentiles throughout its existence.
Israel was NEVER comprised of Gentiles since one could not enter the people of Israel apart from naturalization, which included a dedication to Moses and loyalty to the nation. Salvation was promised to Israel, which is undoubtedly the reason why some argued that a person couldn't be saved unless they kept Moses.
Genetically, you and I and everyone on the planet are both Jew and Gentile, because after thousands of years of natural genetic dispersion and diffusion, Jewish DNA is ubiquitous throughout humanity, and Gentile DNA is ubiquitous throughout humanity.
That doesn't matter. None of that is relevant to the question, "Did God, at some point in history choose a people for himself?" The answer is yes. Deuteronomy 4:20.
It matters not to God, because God is not a racist. Acts 10:34,35
God's impartiality does not defeat his covenant faithfulness.

He cannot be contorted into one, despite your most desperate efforts.
Read and believe the Bible.
 

CadyandZoe

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What prophet says that God will use "national Israel" to vindicate His holy name? How does the fact that Israel became a nation again prove that they nationally will be blessed by God more so than any other peoples of the earth?
You couldn't spend 10 minutes to read Ezekiel 36?

Okay. I'll explain how I came to understand it. One day, while studying the book of Romans, I pondered the following verses.

Romans 2:23-24
You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

Paul is reminding the religious leaders of his time that the name of God is being blasphemed among the Gentiles because of their actions. He claims that his knowledge comes from the scriptures, stating "just as it is written." So I went looking in the scriptures for a reference to that.

Isaiah 52:4-6
For thus says the Lord God, “My people went down at the first into Egypt to reside there; then the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. Now therefore, what do I have here,” declares the Lord, “seeing that My people have been taken away without cause?” Again the Lord declares, “Those who rule over them howl, and My name is continually blasphemed all day long. Therefore My people shall know My name; therefore in that day I am the one who is speaking, ‘Here I am.’”
The fact that God's people were taken into Egypt and Assyria, belies God's promise to his people, "I will be a God for you." Isaiah implicates Assyria, who continually blasphemed the name of God all day long.

Ezekiel gives a more full account here.

Ezekiel 36:16-21
Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, “Son of man, when the house of Israel was living in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds; their way before Me was like the uncleanness of a woman in her impurity. Therefore I poured out My wrath on them for the blood which they had shed on the land, because they had defiled it with their idols. Also I scattered them among the nations and they were dispersed throughout the lands. According to their ways and their deeds I judged them. When they came to the nations where they went, they profaned My holy name, because it was said of them, ‘These are the people of the Lord; yet they have come out of His land.’ But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations where they went.
The House of Israel dishonored God's name in several ways. First, because the Lord allowed his people to be taken into exile, it seemed like God was either unwilling or unable to fulfill his promise to protect them from their enemies. Second, the exile made it seem like Yahweh didn't really exist. According to the Lord, the exile caused God to be mocked by the Gentiles, which was a desecration of his holy name.

Jesus taught his disciples, including us, to pray "hallowed be thy name," which means "make your name holy again among the Gentiles." How will God do that? If God brings the Gentiles against Israel and defeats Israel's enemies, it will restore the holiness of his name among the Gentiles.

Please read the entire chapter of Ezekiel 36, but allow it to suffice here that I quote a few more verses.

Ezekiel 36:22-23
“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Lord God, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.

God will vindicate his holy name by bringing his people back into the land; he will clean them up; he will bring Israel's enemies against her; he will defeat their enemies. He will prove himself holy.
 

Stewardofthemystery

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THOSE…select FEW….(bodily dead, bodily alive)….ARE NOT “present” ON the face of the earth, during God tribulations and wrath sent down from Heaven….THEY ARE forgiven, covered, cleansed, Saved, Quickened, Sanctified, and Raised up WHOLE…body, soul, spirit….BEFORE Gods tribulations and wrath ARE sent down from Heaven.
That is not “called” a resurrection, rather is called The Rapture, exclusive to and for the members of Christ’s Church to meet their Lord IN the air.
The elect saints are on earth during the tribulation/wrath of God and are not resurrected/changed until the last trump at the last day.

Matthew 24:21-22

King James Version

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

CadyandZoe

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Why do you single out the nation of Israel above every other nation of the earth? What promises of God has the nation of Israel not exclusively received?
God promised to grant eternal life to that nation. He has yet to do that. Also, God declared that through that nation, God would vindicate his holy name. In order to do that, according to him, he must bring his people back to the land, establish them once again as a nation, circumcise their hearts, and protect them from his enemies -- all in view of the rest of the world.
If you believe that Israel exclusively is yet to be blessed by God, you are a Zionist!
You can call me whatever you like. I am speaking the truth about God's history with Israel and his future plans for Israel.

You are a Zionist Dispensationalist. Christian Zionism nor Dispensationalism is NOT the friend of Israelites in unbelief.

Zionist - a supporter of Zionism; a person who believes in the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel:
As I say, I am not a Zionist Dispensationalist. Your labels do not represent what I believe.

This is where you appear to veer off the deep end. God's everlasting/eternal Covenant promises have never been to an ungodly, reprobate people of the earth.
I disagree. Where did you get that Idea?
The Covenant promise of God has always been to ALL people without distinction of ethnicity, who are of faith in Christ.
That isn't true. Jeremiah says that God will make a new Covenant with the House of Judah and the House of Israel. This is definitely an ethnic distinction.
The only promises to Israel of the flesh was the land of Cannan.
That isn't true. The land promise also includes the promise of eternal life. (Deuteronomy 5:33) Jesus agrees. He tells the rich young ruler,

Matthew 19:16-17
And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”

He tells the rich young ruler that if he wishes to enter into life, keep the commandments. That is also what Moses said. And that is also consistent with what God said. In the case of Israel, he will bring them back to the land, circumcise their hearts and THERE he will grant them eternal life.

That physical promise of land would have belonged to the nation forever IF they had not turned away from God to worship and serve the gods of this world.
But that isn't the end of the story. He is currently bringing them back to the land, forming them into a nation, and he will eventually pour out his spirit on them and circumcise their hearts. And they will eventually believe in Jesus Christ as the prophet Zechariah has spoken. (Zechariah 14:1-5)
It was true BEFORE Paul's time, and after Christ it is still true to Israel of faith, as Paul was. Because there has always been a remnant according to election of grace.
When the time comes, Israel will become a nation of faith.
No Paul does not! You imagine Paul argues against my view; however, you can only assume because you cannot prove what you allege.
I have proved it already. You simply ignore the proof.
If Paul argues the nation of Israel will be beneficiaries of the Covenant promises of God, then ignore everything Paul says, because your doctrine forces him to contradict himself. Why would you believe anything Paul or Christ for that matter says if they contradict each other and themselves???
There is no contradiction.

Where in this discourse does Paul say what you imagine?
What do you mean? His discourse is what I believe. Perhaps you don't understand what Paul is saying?
Yes, God will! But not nationally, as you imagine, rather according to His grace through faith!
You may have misunderstood my point of view. I am not saying that nationality will be the basis of their salvation. When God saves them as a nation, the basis will be grace through faith as it is for anyone else.
Ezekiel is fulfilled and being fulfilled since the first advent of Christ coming to earth a man.
That isn't true. Israel only became a nation in 1948 and God has yet to pour out his spirit on them and circumcise their hearts. At some point in our future, God will never again make Israel a reproach among the nations. (Joel 2:19)
If you're still looking for fulfillment of this prophecy, perhaps you too, like the pharisees of Old do not believe that Christ is the promised Messiah who was to come.
That isn't true. As I said before, you misunderstood my position since fulfillment of the prophecy depends on Christ the Messiah.
Your making distinctions between ethnic groups that Scripture does not.
It does make such distinctions. In Romans 11, Paul argues that God has not rejected his people -- the Israelites -- citing God's response to Elijah's complaint that they are killing all of Israel's prophets. This is an ethnic distinction.
Yes, they are the "human race"!
No. The Bible never suggests that God chose the human race.
People from every nation, tribe, kindred and tongue who believe have been chosen of God to be His Holy people through Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.
You are talking about being chosen for salvation. And I agree with what you say above. But when Peter names the diaspora "a chosen race" he isn't talking about being chosen for salvation. He is talking about being chosen to "proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. (1 Peter 2:9) That is/was their role as the people of God.
Yes, I agree! The holy linage of God through the SEED (Christ) of Jacob are ALL from the human race chosen from before the foundation of the world to be saved through Him. Yes, that is the only lineage from the whole human race that shall be eternally saved.
You are mistaken. Paul doesn't trace our spiritual lineage from Jacob, he traces it from Abraham.
 

Taken

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The elect saints are on earth during the tribulation/wrath of God and are not resurrected/changed until the last trump at the last day.

Yes………there shall BE “elect” saints ON the face of the Earth “DURING” the Tribulation/Wraths sent from Heaven…

THEIR presence is expressly taught…
THEIR allegiance to God is expressly revealed…
THEIR purpose service unto God is expressly revealed…
* TWO sent witnesses, with power, to preach in Jerusalem…until they shall be bodily killed.
* 144,000 sent (Tribesmen of Israel), SEALED with Gods MARK, preaching to the tribesmen OF Israel)….

* There SHALL be a “remnant” of “believers IN God, IN Jesus”….Mortals, who physically / bodily survive the tribulations and wrath. Who SHALL in their mortal flesh, begin repopulating the Earth, DURING Christ Jesus 1,000 year reign.

* There SHALL BE…ALL “IN” Christ…(having physically die or remaining physically alive)….WHO ARE Removed from the face of the Earth…risen up, WHOLE (glorified body, saved soul, quickened spirit) …. BEFORE the commencement OF tribulations and wrath sent down from heaven. Ie RAPTURE (gathering ) of Christ’s CHURCH members, PREPARED to return to Earth and Serve Christ Jesus during His 1,000 year reign.

Yes, ALL “others”….making commitments DURING the tribulation and wrath sent down from Heaven…and forward into the 1,000 year reign of Christ Jesus…SHALL be bodily raised up…in the First mass Resurrection…
And ALL rejectors bodily raised up … in the Second / Last Resurrection…

Glory to God,
Taken
 

covenantee

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Israel was NEVER comprised of Gentiles
So you disbelieve Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.

Who were those "not of thy seed" and "strangers" if not Gentiles?

And it is clear from the Scriptures that they were accorded every covenant right, privilege, and responsibility as native-born Israelites.

Which detonates your attempt to racialize God's Israel.
That doesn't matter. None of that is relevant to the question, "Did God, at some point in history choose a people for himself?" The answer is yes. Deuteronomy 4:20.
You claim that His choice is determined by DNA.

That today is the entirety of humanity.

You're both a Jew and a Gentile, I'm both a Jew and a Gentile, every individual alive is both a Jew and a Gentile.

And your zionist racism is demolished.

Whether you like it or not. :laughing:
 
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covenantee

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The idea that God chose a race of people is an unambiguous teaching of the Bible.
The idea that God chose a race of people is an unambiguous teaching of your Darby/Scofield racist dispensational zionism.
 
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CadyandZoe

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So you disbelieve Genesis 17:12; Exodus 12:48-49; Leviticus 19:34; Leviticus 24:22.
No, I think you misunderstood. Take Genesis 17:12 for example. It says that a male slave must be circumcised. In that case, the male slave ceases to be a Gentile and becomes one of the people.
And it is clear from the Scriptures that they were accorded every covenant right, privilege, and responsibility as native-born Israelites.
That is because they became Israelites.
Which detonates your attempt to racialize God's Israel.

You claim that His choice is determined by DNA.
God chose a race. That is clear from scripture.
That today is the entirety of humanity.
No. That is not true.
You're both a Jew and a Gentile, I'm both a Jew and a Gentile, every individual alive is both a Jew and a Gentile.
No that isn't true.
And your zionist racism is demolished.

Whether you like it or not. :laughing:
I am not a Zionist.
 

CadyandZoe

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The idea that God chose a race of people is an unambiguous teaching of your Darby/Scofield racist dispensational zionism.
No. The idea that God chose a race of people is Biblical teaching as I showed you many times. This is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact. If you chose to ignore the facts that is up to you.
 

covenantee

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No, I think you misunderstood. Take Genesis 17:12 for example. It says that a male slave must be circumcised. In that case, the male slave ceases to be a Gentile and becomes one of the people.
How did he cease to be a Gentile? Did his DNA get replaced? :laughing:
 
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rwb

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The idea that God chose a race of people is an unambiguous teaching of your Darby/Scofield racist dispensational zionism.

It's true! God did choose a race of people from before the foundation of the earth, they are the faithful race from HUMAN BEINGS! Those of faith throughout the whole human race were not chosen according to ethnicity, but according to God's grace through faith! I doubt C&Z have even the slightest understanding of what they have been taught, seeing they continue to deny being dispensational Zionist, of which they clearly are! May as well be posting to the wind!
 
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