Doctrine as a god - bow down before the one you serve...
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
Naturally, the person who pulls you of the water is how you are saved (from drowning). You are not saved by his teachings.
Correct me if I'm wrong, @St. SteVen, but I believe this thread is about IDOLATRY of doctrine.
No....
TS2009 (The Scriptures 2009)
Before that it was
ISR'98 (Institute of Scripture Research 1998)
I have a hard copy of ISR98 but only an electronic copy of TS2009. Not many changes. They tend to know all the old Talmud, Sifre, and etc from the Jewish extra-biblical literature in Israel before it was destroyed in 70AD....
And a lot of the New Testament writers refer to those religious lessons as well as Old Testament scriptures....often during the translation process these concepts and pieces of literature were unknown....especially by Erasmus and Tyndale. And Erasmus was more concerned with his translation matching the Catechisms and Prayer books that the Catholic Church put out. He did follow most every formula for translating that Martin Luther established when translating the Latin into German....but German is not English either. (Grammar is different and so is vocabulary)
Tyndale focused his work on the Old Testament which Erasmus did not do much of at all. Because it wasn't until a century after King James's-Oxford/Cambridge translation was created that the Bible itself was actually used in Protestant Churches. (They finally got away from the book of Prayers, Catechisms, and Psalter)
Where they did use the Evangelion (selections of scriptures from the Gospels) it really was never the focus of church services.
The KJV (which is the Oxford/Cambridge translation for the CoE) never really became popular until a massive marketing campaign started shortly after WW1. Until that time it had been largely abandoned. But since the royalties were expired it could be published for cheaper than more modern translations could. Meh....
The MOST influential English Bible translation was of course the Geneva Bible. Created by Calvinists in Switzerland who had escaped Bloody Mary's return to Catholicism, Elizabeth allowed them to pump bibles into England for a fraction of what they otherwise would cost. A common man could actually, for the first time, have a copy of the Bible....only a week's wages is all it cost.
It standardized the spellings and grammar across all the UK, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, and England. Unheard of before this time. People used it to learn to read and write. (Whether the priests would consent to teach them or not)
King James sought to continue this notion in 1611 by having Bibles chained up in every Town Square and available to all....but by this point the concept was moot. Everyone interested could learn to read and write. Geneva Bibles already were everywhere. They might be old and tattered and older language used....but still just as effective. So it never became popular. Same with the later Oxford/Cambridge....they named it after King James in hopes of issuing a more standardized Bible that everyone would use....but England was in the midst of a huge "brain drain" as the Great Migration was in process. And the ESV is what the people brought with them for life in the New Land.
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Not to knock the TS2009 but some negative reviews from Messianics as I'm sure you are well aware of--I have it on my e Sword.
What's the Best Bible Translation? And More Importantly, Why? - Berean Patriot
This article won't be a quick read because it's an in-depth treatment of the topic, not a gloss. Deciding on the best Bible translation is...
www.bereanpatriot.com
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with Elohim.
Joh 1:3 All came to be through Him,a and without Him not even one came to be that came to be. Footnote: a Eph_3:9, Col_1:16, Heb_1:2, Heb_11:3, 2Pe_3:5, Psa_33:6.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from Elohim, whose name was Yoḥanan.
TS2009
Give me your review on this translation--
BESURAS HAGEULAH
ACCORDING TO
YOCHANAN
Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:1], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with) Hashem [MISHLE 8:30; 30:4], and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13]
Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
All things through him came to be, and without him came to be not one thing which came into being. [Ps 33:6,9; Prov 30:4]
In him was Chayyim (Life) and the Chayyim (Life) was the Ohr (Light) of Bnei Adam. [TEHILLIM 36:10 (9)]
And the Ohr shines in the choshech [TEHILLIM 18:28], and the choshech did not grasp it. [YESHAYAH 9:1]
There came an ish haElohim (a man of G-d), having been sent from Hashem. His name was Yochanan.
This Yochanan came for an eidus (witness), that he might give solemn edut (testimony) about the Ohr, that kol Bnei Adam might have emunah through him.
This ish haElohim was not the Ohr, but he came that he might give solemn edut (testimony) about the Ohr.
If you're looking for a commentary that incorporates the Targums (ancient Aramaic paraphrases of the Hebrew Bible) and historical rabbinical writings, several key works and collections stand out. Here are a few that are highly respected:
1. Mikraot Gedolot ("Rabbinic Bible")
Description: This traditional Jewish commentary, also known as the "Great Scriptures," includes the Hebrew text of the Bible, major Targums (such as Targum Onkelos and Targum Jonathan), and commentaries from prominent medieval Jewish scholars, including Rashi (Rabbi S
mo Yitzchaki), Ibn Ezra, and Ramban (Nachmanides).Usefulness: It is one of the most comprehensive collections for understanding how classical rabbinical scholars interpreted the text in light of earlier Jewish traditions.
2. The Torah: A Modern Commentary
Description: Edited by Rabbi W. Gunther Plaut, this commentary provides the Hebrew text alongside English translation and commentary that integrates traditional rabbinical insights as well as modern scholarship.
Usefulness: While it is not solely focused on the Targums, it includes references to classical rabbinic writings and is widely used in both scholarly and congregational settings.
3. ArtScroll Stone Edition Chumash
Description: This is a popular Torah commentary that provides a modern English translation alongside the traditional Hebrew text and Rashi’s commentary. It also includes insights from the Talmud, Midrash, and various rabbinical sources.
Usefulness: It is widely respected for its thoroughness and accessibility, bringing together classical Jewish exegesis with an emphasis on traditional rabbinic interpretations.
4. The JPS Torah Commentary
Description: Published by the Jewish Publication Society, this series of commentaries on the Torah (five books of Moses) is scholarly and includes references to rabbinic literature, Targums, and historical context.
Usefulness: It is respected for its balance of traditional Jewish interpretation with modern academic research and is particularly valuable for those looking to study the Torah with a blend of these perspectives.
5. Targum Onkelos: The First Five Books of the Bible
Description: This work provides an English translation and commentary on Targum Onkelos, one of the most important and widely used Targums. It often includes comparisons with other rabbinical writings.
Usefulness: It is especially valuable for those interested in the nuances of how the Aramaic Targum interprets the Hebrew text.
6. The Anchor Bible Series
Description: Although not exclusively Jewish, this ecumenical series offers extensive commentary on each book of the Bible, drawing from a wide range of sources, including the Targums and rabbinic literature.
Usefulness: It is beneficial for those seeking a comprehensive scholarly approach that includes Jewish, Christian, and secular academic perspectives.
Each of these commentaries has its strengths depending on whether you are looking for a traditional Jewish perspective, a modern academic approach, or a blend of both. The Mikraot Gedolot is particularly significant for its inclusion of both Targumic and rabbinic commentary, making it a valuable resource for in-depth study.
Thanks.
J.
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Agree.
From the OP.
Doctrolatry (to coin a term)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(doctrine + idolatry = Doctrolatry) ??? Doctrinolatry? ???
[
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
If I use the word "belief," would that make any difference? Is it the word that offends you or its meaning?
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
Doctrine based solely on the whole of Scripture is correct. Point out one doctrine in Calvinism that you think is unbiblical, and let's discuss it. I prefer to get specific.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
@St. SteVen agreed.
There is no salvation in doctrine. Only God can save.
--- Agree or disagree? ---
Doctrine explains how we are saved/ Born Again by the Spirit Of God..
It’s a Living spirit birth as you well know, you don’t need any bible reading for God by his Spirit...to birth our spirit into His.
It’s by divine revelation that we become Born Again....not by reading the Bible,on saying that, God could birth someone in the spirit while they are reading the Bible, becoming Born Again is an act of God.
Great to see someone speaking in the spirit.
There is no salvation in doctrine. Only God can save.
--- Agree or disagree? ---
Doctrine explains how we are saved/ Born Again by the Spirit Of God..
It’s a Living spirit birth as you well know, you don’t need any bible reading for God by his Spirit...to birth our spirit into His.
It’s by divine revelation that we become Born Again....not by reading the Bible,on saying that, God could birth someone in the spirit while they are reading the Bible, becoming Born Again is an act of God.
Great to see someone speaking in the spirit.
It seems like we've got an apologist in the room-great to see that! Calvin and his Institutes have been largely debunked by most people here, but you seem ready to engage and give thoughtful answers. It could get interesting if anyone's up for a dialogue with you.
J.
You should probably tiptoe through the TULIPs with someone that is better informed about Calvinism than I. - LOL
[ cc: @Johann
My point is that doctrine is man-made and there is no consensus across the board as to its meaning.
To claim that a doctrine is "biblical" is really pretty meaningless. (but many do it)
Two opposing doctrines are both biblical and contradictory.
How then could there be salvation in doctrine?
[
It is not the doctrines themselves that save, but the doctrines reveal and point to the truth of salvation through faith in Christ. Salvation is secured through believing in the person and work of Jesus Christ as revealed in the Scriptures.
J.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
@St. SteVen many come to the Lord having never read a Bible.
The Bible I believe is there to help us grow in the spirit, our spirit needs to grow and mature in Christ.
If one is Born Again, then all of the above will happen, but, only in Gods timing and by His Spirit.
That is why we must be Born Again by divine revelation.
The Bible I believe is there to help us grow in the spirit, our spirit needs to grow and mature in Christ.
If one is Born Again, then all of the above will happen, but, only in Gods timing and by His Spirit.
That is why we must be Born Again by divine revelation.
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The doctrine about Jesus explains how we can be saved. The act of saving us was done by Jesus himself.
But the concept isn't as inane as the inanimate carbon rod saving us from nuclear disaster. The word of God is alive and active. The spirit of Christ is in the word itself. Not going to pretend I understand how that is, but I stand by the assertions in 1 John.
But the concept isn't as inane as the inanimate carbon rod saving us from nuclear disaster. The word of God is alive and active. The spirit of Christ is in the word itself. Not going to pretend I understand how that is, but I stand by the assertions in 1 John.
A nice dodge.
DODGE, v.i. doj. [from some root signifying to shoot, dart or start.]
1. To start suddenly aside; to shift place by a sudden start.
2. To play tricks; to be evasive; to use tergiversation; to play fast and loose; to raise expectations and disappoint them; to quibble.
DODGE, v.t. To evade by a sudden shift of place; to escape by starting aside; as, to dodge a blow aimed; to dodge a canon ball. [This is a common word, very expressive and useful, but not admissible in solemn discourse or elegant composition.]
Webster.
You come across as someone with a lighthearted and humorous personality. Any depth?
J.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
I still don't see why you object to doctrine. Doctrines are to me beliefs based solely on the Bible. When we come to believe them, God works in our heart the new birth by the Holy Spirit through Jesus' death and resurrection. Doctrines aren't bad unless they're based on other ideas than the Scripture.
Bruce-Leiter
Well-Known Member
But God uses the gospel to save us by his revelation of the Bible:
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.”
He did that in my life.
Ritajanice
Born-Again
@Bruce-Leiter
I still don't see why you object to doctrine. Doctrines are to me beliefs based solely on the Bible. When we come to believe them, God works in our heart the new birth by the Holy Spirit through Jesus' death and resurrection. Doctrines aren't bad unless they're based on other ideas than the Scripture.
I don’t object to doctrine, that’s where I grow and mature in Christ.
My becoming Born Again, is very different to yours...
I became Born Again having never read a Bible...
We became Born Again very differently.
We are Born Again Gods way, not mans way.
You must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God!....
Amen! In Jesus Name.
I still don't see why you object to doctrine. Doctrines are to me beliefs based solely on the Bible. When we come to believe them, God works in our heart the new birth by the Holy Spirit through Jesus' death and resurrection. Doctrines aren't bad unless they're based on other ideas than the Scripture.
I don’t object to doctrine, that’s where I grow and mature in Christ.
My becoming Born Again, is very different to yours...
I became Born Again having never read a Bible...
We became Born Again very differently.
We are Born Again Gods way, not mans way.
You must be Born Again to see the Kingdom Of God!....
Amen! In Jesus Name.
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Ritajanice
Born-Again
He doesn’t give birth to everyone’s spirit that way, by reading a bible.
Gods word is Alive and Active and is everywhere, His Spirit does the birthing not the Bible.
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