Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

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rebuilder 454

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Right in other words they were not saved by believing in Jesus. When 10 women get suddenly woke up in the night, they have no time to do anything much. If this was the Rapture that happens in a moment of time, then they *the foolish) would be found lacking. I don't see how one could apply that to saved believers. Yes, some believers lack works that merit great reward and have less reward. That does not mean they are forsaken and left behind in the resurrection in the last day of the living and the dead.
Not only do we see plainly they are all 10 believers, we see them martyred right away and in heaven as an innumerable number.
The innumerable number had dirty robes that had to be washed.
I already educated you that Paul and Jesus showed us 2 classes of believers .
That is all you are seeing in all that.
The wise are taken as the bride

The foolish carnal saints are martyred and found in heaven later in their dirty robes that get washed.

Your doctrine leaves all that out.

What you are leaving out, also, is that not only are there two classes of believers, that Paul and Jesus vividly described, but there are also to separate covenants of God's people.
We have the Jew, which is the wife in Rebellion, or the wife gone a whoring.
We also have the bride of Christ, which is the Gentile bride, vividly portrayed in the Book of Ruth.
This all points to what Jesus said ,"that Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is completed".
Now the tribulation Is in fact "the time of the Gentiles completed", and God has turned his attention to his Covenant people, the Jewish Nation.
The tribulation has a purpose, it is "Jacob's trouble" which is also "Israel's trouble".

So what I'm saying is your Doctrine leaves every bit of that out.
 

dad

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Ok
you and Dave NJ are convinced that "their lamps went out during the night" proves they NEVER HAD OIL.

Let me start backing up from both of you.
You guys are not well if you connect the dots that way.

Woah.
Sorry if it rocks your boat mentally or whatever. You need more than attitude to make a case.
 

dad

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Not only do we see plainly they are all 10 believers, we see them martyred right away and in heaven as an innumerable number.
If you are still talking about the ten virgins, how is it that believers are called 'foolish'? Look at another parable to see what a foolish person is! The man that was foolish did not build his house on the rock. In the case of the foolish women who brought no oil, the same thing applies, they were foolish.
The innumerable number had dirty robes that had to be washed.
I already educated you that Paul and Jesus showed us 2 classes of believers .
That is all you are seeing in all that.
The wise are taken as the bride
You seem to have some verse in mind. Probably best to actually post it!
The foolish carnal saints are martyred and found in heaven later in their dirty robes that get washed.

Your doctrine leaves all that out.
Except you forgot the verse? We will see who leaves what out.
What you are leaving out, also, is that not only are there two classes of believers, that Paul and Jesus vividly described, but there are also to separate covenants of God's people.
Show me the verses Jesus described the 'class' of believer that would be doomed and not resurrected?
We have the Jew, which is the wife in Rebellion, or the wife gone a whoring.
One does not have to be a certain race to do that
We also have the bride of Christ, which is the Gentile bride, vividly portrayed in the Book of Ruth.
So? What about Ruth tells us she was low class or high class? Your theory ain't nothin but a hounddog so far:)
This all points to what Jesus said ,"that Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is completed".
By this all, you mean what? No verse was posted? Are we supposed to be mind readers? How does Ruth point to anyone not being Raptured? (which is what we were talking about)
Now the tribulation Is in fact "the time of the Gentiles completed", and God has turned his attention to his Covenant people, the Jewish Nation.
The tribulation has a purpose, it is "Jacob's trouble" which is also "Israel's trouble".
That is a purpose for sure. Not 'the' only purpose because untold millions, far greater than any Jewish population will be saved. That counts too!
So what I'm saying is your Doctrine leaves every bit of that out.
Every bit of what? Your little conception of how the last seven years is exclusively for the Jews? Your conception that Ruth somehow supports a leave most sheep behind in the rapture theory? Do tell?
 
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WPM

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Not only do we see plainly they are all 10 believers, we see them martyred right away and in heaven as an innumerable number.
The innumerable number had dirty robes that had to be washed.
I already educated you that Paul and Jesus showed us 2 classes of believers .
That is all you are seeing in all that.
The wise are taken as the bride

The foolish carnal saints are martyred and found in heaven later in their dirty robes that get washed.

Your doctrine leaves all that out.

What you are leaving out, also, is that not only are there two classes of believers, that Paul and Jesus vividly described, but there are also to separate covenants of God's people.
We have the Jew, which is the wife in Rebellion, or the wife gone a whoring.
We also have the bride of Christ, which is the Gentile bride, vividly portrayed in the Book of Ruth.
This all points to what Jesus said ,"that Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles is completed".
Now the tribulation Is in fact "the time of the Gentiles completed", and God has turned his attention to his Covenant people, the Jewish Nation.
The tribulation has a purpose, it is "Jacob's trouble" which is also "Israel's trouble".

So what I'm saying is your Doctrine leaves every bit of that out.
Let me try and help you. Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready ‘went in’ with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Obviously, those left behind are unbelievers! Whether they are religious unbelievers, false professors within the visible church, or out-and-out heathens, is secondary. They simply do not belong to Jesus. They are lost. They miss the boat! Their day of opportunity is gone. All they have now is destruction. They are damned and doomed to a lost eternity.

The Lord similarly teaches in Luke 13:24-28, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

What an awful day this will be, when the wicked find themselves locked outside of God's eternal abode. They will be damned without hope or without Christ. This corresponds to the actual day that Noah entered into the ark in Genesis 7:16. It solemnly tells us of Noah and the ark door, “and the LORD shut him in.” What happened to those locked outside. They were totally and immediately destroyed.

The whole unsaved world will see Jesus return when He comes (Rev 1:7) and realize they have missed it. This is where they mourn and cry (or knock as the parable of the 10 virgins put it), but it is too late. Jesus then pours out His wrath on these rebels causing their immediate and total destruction. Jesus tells us that it will be like Noah's day when Jesus locked His elect in and those outside the door who missed the boat were immediately judged. He destroyed them all (Luke 17). It was same in the city of Sodom. He destroyed all the wicked after bringing His elect out (Luke 17).

The sentence that the wicked receive on this final day is solemn: “depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” This confirms that this is the end. It is the general judgment. It spells eternal damnation for every person left outside of the ark when Jesus comes. People are either ‘caught up’ or ‘caught on’. In fact, anytime Jesus employed these words it always referred to His coming and the solemn sentences that damned the ungodly. Jesus said of the goats in Matthew 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

Using Scripture to interpret Scripture, brings clarity to a subject, puts meat on the bones of any narrative and shows the continuity of God’s truth.

We see the same scene (and similar language) in Matthew 7:21-23: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Which “day” is Jesus talking about here - as in "that day"? His one and only glorious return. This is shown to be judgment day for the wicked. It is when they are brought to give account for their lives. This supports a general judgment when Jesus comes.

These wicked religious people are shown in this parable to be foolishly boasting to Jesus about their religious achievements: have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works?” From this statement we can take it: they expected to be in heaven. However, Jesus will say to them, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

There are many people like that in this world. They have religion in their head, but do not have Jesus in their hearts. They have religion, but not a real relationship. It says here: what they did in life was “in His name,” yet they were locked out.

How will these religious people handle these sobering words of Christ on that final day of judgement? They were foolish to swallow a religious lie. They sat under preaching that told them that they could get to heaven by their own good works. All their religious efforts were in vain. It was a sham. The foolish virgins are locked outside because they reject Christ; Christ then rejects them at the end. That is why He doesn’t know them. He has no relationship with them. Their religion is vain. It is bogus. They have missed their opportunity, now they must receive the judgment. This is just a parallel of all that were locked outside the ark at the flood. They are going to be banished into outer darkness – for all eternity with the rest of the wicked.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Not only do we see plainly they are all 10 believers, we see them martyred right away and in heaven as an innumerable number.
The innumerable number had dirty robes that had to be washed.
I already educated you that Paul and Jesus showed us 2 classes of believers .
That is all you are seeing in all that.
The wise are taken as the bride

The foolish carnal saints are martyred and found in heaven later in their dirty robes that get washed.
Please explain how it can be possible that Jesus would tell those "foolish carnal saints" that He doesn't know them, as we can see in Matthew 25:12?

Matthew 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

Since when can anyone be considered to be saved and be a saint if Jesus doesn't know them? The only way to be counted as a saint is to know Jesus personally.

Jesus didn't have this understanding of "2 classes of believers" that you have. He said this...

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

He considered everyone to either be with Him or against Him. And, He certainly wouldn't tell anyone who was with Him that He doesn't know them.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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ALL HAD OIL

YOU NEED IT TO BE SOMETHING ELSE.
A 2 YEAR OLD CAN SEE IT.
You act like you have a strong understanding of that parable, but you don't even read it carefully and, in reality, you have no clue what it is about.

Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
 

David in NJ

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You act like you have a strong understanding of that parable, but you don't even read it carefully and, in reality, you have no clue what it is about.

Matthew 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
the foolish not taking oil with them leans toward that they were confident in their dead religion
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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the foolish not taking oil with them leans toward that they were confident in their dead religion
Agree. It shows they don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and have no personal relationship with Jesus. Which is why He will tell them He doesn't know them. To think they will then get a chance to repent and be saved is insane and clearly not what Jesus taught. Other scripture indicates that those who will say "Lord, Lord, open to us" on that day will have Jesus tell them He doesn't know them and they will be cast into the fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. This idea that people will get another chance to repent when Jesus comes is a doctrine of demons.
 
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TribulationSigns

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ALL HAD OIL

Nope. You do not read very carefully or receive the love of the Truth. Jesus did NOT say all virgins had the oil to begin with. Selah!

Mat 25:1-13
(1) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
(2) And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
(3) They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

Interestingly all ten virgins were guilty of falling asleep "when the bridegroom tarried," but it was five who God called wise because they had sufficient oil to light their way to the wedding when the appropriate cry was made. Wisdom, as God defines wisdom is spiritual good sense, sound judgment, and divine knowledge, rather than wisdom as defined by the world. So while you would look at the ten virgins as all good lamp carriers, but the "fact" is, five were foolish in that they slumbered without oil, which is a synonym for the Spirit. I think that there is a very good "allegorical" lesson there for the Church. The foolish virgins represent all ungenerated professed Christians because they lack the Holy Spirit. They are NOT saved and NOT God's chosen! God has called many into his Church but only some of them are chosen. The foolish virgins are NOT chosen or regenerated. They will not be knowledge by Lord Jesus Christ at the Second Coming.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear."

I just think that the Church has been conditioned over time to look at what is going on behind it's walls as normative, rather than to "see it" as the actions that are offensive to God? I find very few people who think that it's really all that important to deal with the spiritual truths, and I can't help ask myself if that is simply a benign neglect, or a lack of oil in the lamps, humm?
 
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David in NJ

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Agree. It shows they don't have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them and have no personal relationship with Jesus. Which is why He will tell them He doesn't know them. To think they will then get a chance to repent and be saved is insane and clearly not what Jesus taught. Other scripture indicates that those who will say "Lord, Lord, open to us" on that day will have Jesus tell them He doesn't know them and they will be cast into the fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. This idea that people will get another chance to repent when Jesus comes is a doctrine of demons.
YES, the LORD JESUS repeated His Truth and WARNINGS throughout His Gospel

HE did the same in Revelation
 
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David in NJ

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@rebuilder 454

the LORD loves you and so does everyone who is sharing with you

i used to believe in pre-trib for many years until i sought the LORD for His Truth on the subject

If JESUS had not said: "Immediately after the tribulation........I Come", this conversation would not be taking place.

Every Truth spoken by God has a SINGLE Foundation upon which it is Built = the WORD who was GOD in the Beginning

This is why JESUS says: I am the Way the Truth the Life

You can never go wrong believing His words = as long as we do not add to them or take away from them

Even BETTER is abandoning yourself to CHRIST so that HE will FILL your Lamp with Holy Spirit Anointing Oil.

The Apostles were filled at least twice, as recorded in Acts.

SHALOM
 

David in NJ

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Ok
you and Dave NJ are convinced that "their lamps went out during the night" proves they NEVER HAD OIL.

Let me start backing up from both of you.
You guys are not well if you connect the dots that way.

Woah.
Good Morning

Let your heart be CONVICNCED in THIS

 

rebuilder 454

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Nope. You do not read very carefully or receive the love of the Truth. Jesus did NOT say all virgins had the oil to begin with. Selah!

Mat 25:1-13
(1) Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
(2) And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
(3) They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:

Interestingly all ten virgins were guilty of falling asleep "when the bridegroom tarried," but it was five who God called wise because they had sufficient oil to light their way to the wedding when the appropriate cry was made. Wisdom, as God defines wisdom is spiritual good sense, sound judgment, and divine knowledge, rather than wisdom as defined by the world. So while you would look at the ten virgins as all good lamp carriers, but the "fact" is, five were foolish in that they slumbered without oil, which is a synonym for the Spirit. I think that there is a very good "allegorical" lesson there for the Church. The foolish virgins represent all ungenerated professed Christians because they lack the Holy Spirit. They are NOT saved and NOT God's chosen! God has called many into his Church but only some of them are chosen. The foolish virgins are NOT chosen or regenerated. They will not be knowledge by Lord Jesus Christ at the Second Coming.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear."

I just think that the Church has been conditioned over time to look at what is going on behind it's walls as normative, rather than to "see it" as the actions that are offensive to God? I find very few people who think that it's really all that important to deal with the spiritual truths, and I can't help ask myself if that is simply a benign neglect, or a lack of oil in the lamps, humm?
Wow

All of those sentences and you leave out "....our lamps have gone out"

Then ALL OF YOU must be bewildered at "give us some of yours"
( as if salvation comes from other believers)
Acts has believers recieving the baptism in the Holy Ghost via the laying on of hands.
Never is salvation received via laying on of hands.

In the parable the foolish are asking for transference.
They are told "go buy from those that sell"
This is mirrored in Revelation in the seven letters to the seven churches. Jesus told those that lost their first love to "go buy gold refined in fire."
In both instances gold is representative as is oil in The Parables.
in both instances "buy" is representative.

in both analogies the foolish are told to "go buy" and Jesus tells the carnal believer to "go buy"

Postrib doctrine is unquestionably the champion of omission.

One of your colleagues told me a car that ran out of gas proves it never had any to begin with.
What does " we have run out of bread" mean?
Does the PROVE they never had any?
 
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rebuilder 454

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If you are still talking about the ten virgins, how is it that believers are called 'foolish'? Look at another parable to see what a foolish person is! The man that was foolish did not build his house on the rock. In the case of the foolish women who brought no oil, the same thing applies, they were foolish.

You seem to have some verse in mind. Probably best to actually post it!

Except you forgot the verse? We will see who leaves what out.

Show me the verses Jesus described the 'class' of believer that would be doomed and not resurrected?

One does not have to be a certain race to do that

So? What about Ruth tells us she was low class or high class? Your theory ain't nothin but a hounddog so far:)

By this all, you mean what? No verse was posted? Are we supposed to be mind readers? How does Ruth point to anyone not being Raptured? (which is what we were talking about)

That is a purpose for sure. Not 'the' only purpose because untold millions, far greater than any Jewish population will be saved. That counts too!

Every bit of what? Your little conception of how the last seven years is exclusively for the Jews? Your conception that Ruth somehow supports a leave most sheep behind in the rapture theory? Do tell?
No
Nothing in Ruth points to foolish left behind.
I never thought that or taught it.

You are unaware of the 2 classes of believers?
Read the 7 letters to the 7 churches.
Read 1 Corinthians.
Paul and Jesus taught us the 2 classes vividly.

That is the wise and foolish VIRGINS.

Someone might say there are smart dogs and stupid dogs. Now to be consistent we cannot say if they're not smart they cannot be dogs. That would be ridiculous. It is the same with the parable.
these are the same exact dynamic of believers.

You have wise Believers, and foolish believers.
What you are trying to convey is that all Christians are wise. But you go further to say it's impossible for a Christian to not be wise.
 

dad

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No
Nothing in Ruth points to foolish left behind.
I never thought that or taught it.
You brought up Ruth. You forgot to connect the dots as to how that supposedly supports your theory. So the question arises what was it you think it did support exactly?
You are unaware of the 2 classes of believers?
Read the 7 letters to the 7 churches.
Read 1 Corinthians.
Paul and Jesus taught us the 2 classes vividly.
You apparently are saying that in the churches in Rev 3 there are 2 classes of believers if I read you right.

I see it as an expose that that are believers and evil people and unbelievers in the groups of churches. Just like there are in what are called churches today. You need to support your claim that all the people in those churches are 'believers' (that you divide into a class system)
That is the wise and foolish VIRGINS.
Again, the foolish man that built his house on the sand and the foolish virgins were not saved that I can tell. One was clearly not built of Jesus, and the other clearly had no oil and missed the resurrection. Explain how saved believers do either? The bible does not consider those who came to Jesus 'foolish'. Nor evil for that matter. (as the unjust Stewart)
Someone might say there are smart dogs and stupid dogs. Now to be consistent we cannot say if they're not smart they cannot be dogs. That would be ridiculous. It is the same with the parable.
these are the same exact dynamic of believers.
No the dynamic is sheep and wolves. Not sorting out between dogs as to what breed they are etc
You have wise Believers, and foolish believers.
Oh? Name some foolish believers? Peter? David? Noah? Paul? Steven? let's see a little list of those clearly identified as believers that are foolish?
What you are trying to convey is that all Christians are wise. But you go further to say it's impossible for a Christian to not be wise.
Yes, it is wise to believe in and accept Jesus and get saved! It is foolish not to. Now if you want to talk about intelligence, or gifts, or education, or wealth, etc there are believers that are quite different. When it comes to the gift of God He gives all who come to Him, it is all the same! There is no male or female or rich or bond or etc for us.
 
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rebuilder 454

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You brought up Ruth. You forgot to connect the dots as to how that supposedly supports your theory. So the question arises what was it you think it did support exactly?

You apparently are saying that in the churches in Rev 3 there are 2 classes of believers if I read you right.

I see it as an expose that that are believers and evil people and unbelievers in the groups of churches. Just like there are in what are called churches today. You need to support your claim that all the people in those churches are 'believers' (that you divide into a class system)

Again, the foolish man that built his house on the sand and the foolish virgins were not saved that I can tell. One was clearly not built of Jesus, and the other clearly had no oil and missed the resurrection. Explain how saved believers do either? The bible does not consider those who came to Jesus 'foolish'. Nor evil for that matter. (as the unjust Stewart)

No the dynamic is sheep and wolves. Not sorting out between dogs as to what breed they are etc

Oh? Name some foolish believers? Peter? David? Noah? Paul? Steven? let's see a little list of those clearly identified as believers that are foolish?

Yes, it is wise to believe in and accept Jesus and get saved! It is foolish not to. Now if you want to talk about intelligence, or gifts, or education, or wealth, etc there are believers that are quite different. When it comes to the gift of God He gives all who come to Him, it is all the same! There is no male or female or rich or bond or etc for us.
If you want to pretend there are not carnal vs spiritual believers that is your business.
Maybe teach postribbers that running out of oil conclusively tells them they never had any, then tell them Jesus and Paul are incorrect depicting two classes of believers in Rev 4 and 1 Corinthians.
All believers are wise and spiritual. Roll eyes.
Teach them that, because they also need it to be so.
( give them other "truths" of the postrib workbook.
They already believe Jesus is wrong in Matthew's 2 comings, and Revelation 14: 14 is not really Jesus on a cloud with a sickle.)
Maybe become a watchtower follower.
They also are doctrine centered , as were the pharasees.
It does not matter to you guys what the Bible says.
It matters what you can make it say.

QUOTE
"""Oh? Name some foolish believers? Peter? David? Noah? Paul? Steven? let's see a little list of those clearly identified as believers that are foolish?"""
Where do we start?????
Thousands of solid believers voted for Obama. ( not only foolish, but stupid)
Thousands/millions Of solid believers voted for Biden.( pure foolishness)
No such thing as foolish believers?
Peter denied Jesus. According to you, that was wise.
Paul rebuked Peter for siding with the Jews.
According to you, that was wise of Peter.
1 Corinthians is a gold mine of foolish believers.
It even says that some are saved "as Through Fire", they're saved, but their works are burned up.
It says their works are wood, hay, and stubble.
According to your post-trib workbook of "Truth" those foolish believers are very wise.
 

rebuilder 454

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rebuilder 454 said:
Someone might say there are smart dogs and stupid dogs. Now to be consistent we cannot say if they're not smart they cannot be dogs. That would be ridiculous. It is the same with the parable.
these are the same exact dynamic of believers.


Dads QUOTE
"""No the dynamic is sheep and wolves. Not sorting out between dogs as to what breed they are etc"""

Totally and completely off.
The parable has 2 classes of virgins.
You are just wildy throwing out anything and changing the parable foolishly.

Ahem....not even realizing you foolishly used "breed", in your haste to sound wise.
Pssst...breed is in the same species.

You unwittingly made a case against your false doctrine.
Lol...yes 2 breeds in Christians.
As the Bible clearly teaches.
The book you are desperately going against.
 
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