tailgator
Well-Known Member
Yes that's on the day after the Lords Sabbath.
Revelation 21
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
No mortals will survive the second coming of Christ
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Revelation 21
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
This is the Pretrib and Premil norm today. Why? Because the debate has been long won. They cannot engage on NT territory because they know that clear NT passage after passage forbids their error. They must default to the long-fulfilled and obscure texts to formulate their paradigm.
Be encouraged. They can pin nothing on the Op. If they could they would have done it. This is becoming a notable habit!
LOL. What a lie. I addressed the topic in detail in my original post and in other posts as well. You are the one avoiding what I said in the original post. You haven't specifically addressed any of those passages. You've only vaguely mentioned them without exegeting anything. Talk about amusing!
That is not talking bout something that happens after Christ's second coming. Hello? Are you somehow not aware that I'm an amillenniliast even though it's amils who believe that all mortals are destroyed when Christ returns? Why are you so ignorant?
Please tell me exactly how you interpret this passage:
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Be specific, please. No more vague, incoherent responses. Tell me exactly how you interpret this passage with specific detail and then we can discuss why your interpretation is wrong.
Absolutely right. It is very noticeable how they are not willing to specifically address any of the passages referenced in the OP. They know that they cannot reconcile premil with any of them. So, they resort to using passages like Zechariah 14 without caring that their interpretation of that passage contradicts other scripture.
I corrected another premil in another thread who tried to claim that Zechariah 13 is about the second coming. I showed him how Zechariah 13:7 is quoted by Jesus in a first coming context in Matthew 26:31. So, what does he do? He resorts to claiming that the subject changes completely in the next verse (Zech 13:8). That's the kind of thing premils do whenever their false doctrine is exposed.
The problem is that you weren't quoting from modern translations. You quoted from the KJV which is among the ones you listed. I'll show it again for you: Revelation 11:15 (KJV) And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
There are kingdoms of this world, but there is only ONE Kingdom of God. Christ began to reign over the kingdoms of this world SPIRITUALLY as people from every kingdom of the world hear the Gospel and enter into His Kingdom when they are eternally saved through the Spirit of Christ in them.
That's why after the war in heaven between Michael and his angels and Satan and his angels, when Satan and his angels were cast from heaven to the earth, the angels in heaven rejoice, saying:
Revelation 12:10-14 (KJV) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The spiritual battle began in earnest after Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven when Christ was born. Notice how salvation, strength AND the KINGDOM OF GOD and POWER of HIS CHRIST had come to the earth. That's because the birth of Christ ushered in this age we have been living in since His coming, and through His Gospel Christ is robbing the strong man, and building the Kingdom of God through those who were in darkness and death, but have turned to Christ (been born again through His Spirit) for everlasting life. The kingdoms of this world have been invaded by the forces of good, Satan's power has been bound.
I didn't say it was. It's a parallel passage to Matthew 8:11-12. The reason I brought it up was just to expose your ridiculous thing about people traveling only from the east and west to the kingdom of heaven even though Luke recorded Jesus as referencing people from the north and south as well, which Matthew did not record.
I think we both would agree that there are no believers who fight against Jerusalem in Zechariah 14:12, they are unbelievers. So in Zechariah 14:16 those who are left that came against Jerusalem would be unbelievers only, which would mean that the statements that follow are referring to unbelievers only (verses 16-19).
I really don’t see a reason why these verses couldn’t be pertaining to eternity, the unbelievers could be required to worship God or suffer no rain for eternity. I personally don’t believe in complete annihilation of unbelievers.
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
That is not what those scriptures are saying happens to the nations when he comes again.
They suffer eternal separation and damnation.
Matt 25
31 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and majesty and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
32 All the nations will be gathered before Him [for judgment]; and He will separate them from one another, as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right [the place of honor], and the goats on His left [the place of rejection].
34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father [you favored of God, appointed to eternal salvation], inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world
41 “Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Leave Me, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels
All the unbelieving nations eternally perish. Do you believe what Jesus is saying in Matt 13 and 25?
Do you believe Paul, when he taught this...,
5 This is a positive proof of the righteous judgment of God [a sign of His fair verdict], so that you will be considered worthy of His kingdom, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with distress those who distress you, 7 and to give relief to you who are so distressed and to us as well when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in a flame of fire, 8 dealing out [full and complete] vengeance to those who do not [seek to] know God and to those who ignore and refuse to obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus [by choosing not to respond to Him]. 9 These people will pay the penalty and endure the punishment of everlasting destruction, banished from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day [that is, glorified through the changed lives of those who have accepted Him as Savior and have been set apart for His purpose], and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed and trusted [and confirmed in your lives].
If you do believe those teachings, then you know you need to adjust your thinking in regard to the book of Revelation. Not doing so leaves you contradicting and undermining the Lords own teaching...not wise.
Revelation 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
On another note. I don't know about you, but I can see verse 4 maybe leading to what is recorded in Zechariah 14:16-19. Surely the final days of this age is meant here where verse 4 is then saying, for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Except Amil has no one remaining of any nations in order to fulfill this. These judgments are not upon the saved. Therefore, Amil can't insist only the saved are meant by this-- for all nations shall come and worship before thee--since the saved are already doing that to begin with, except they are doing it spiritually for the time being.
How then can verse 4 ever get fulfilled if Amil has every single unsaved person on the planet wiped out when Revelation 19 is meaning?
Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Which eventually leads to this after the vials of wrath have been poured out and completed.
Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.
Which will then be involving this.
Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Which then means this.
Isaiah 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
Where that is then fulfilled here.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
Here is the resurection of the dead when they come out of their graves
Ezekiel 37
12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord.
Here is Christ reigning over the resurected saints forever.
Ezekiel 37
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
Here is Gog coming against the resurected saints just like revelation 20.
Ezekiel 38
38 And the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4 And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5 Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
7 Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
8 After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
Here is fire coming down from heaven from God upon Gog just like revelation 20.
Ezekiel 38
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
jeffweeder
Well-Known Member
Seriously, it is saying they will come from all nations.
.
That would be the Jerusalem that is above in the Kingdom of Heaven,
In other words it is the place prepared from the foundation of the earth (matt 25) .... Eden.
So we are looking at the NHNE and the New Jerusalem
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels [in festive gathering], 23 and to the general assembly and assembly of the firstborn who are registered [as citizens] in heaven, and to God, who is Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous (the redeemed in heaven) who have been made perfect [bringing them to their final glory], 24 and to Jesus, the Mediator of a new covenant [uniting God and man], and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks [of mercy], a better and nobler and more gracious message than the blood of Abel [which cried out for vengeance].
25 See to it that you do not refuse [to listen to] Him who is speaking [to you now]. For if those [sons of Israel] did not escape when they refused [to listen to] him who warned them on earth [revealing God’s will], how much less will we escape if we turn our backs on Him who warns from heaven? 26 His voice shook the earth [at Mount Sinai] then, but now He has given a promise, saying, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the [starry] heaven.” 27 Now this [expression], “Yet once more,” indicates the removal and final transformation of all those things which can be shaken—that is, of that which has been created—so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, and offer to God pleasing service and acceptable worship with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is [indeed] a consuming fire.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
False
Gog and the nations which come against the resurected saints are consumed by fire coming down out of heaven from God.This does not take place at Christs coming.It takes place 1000 years after he has already come and resurected the saints who have died for their testimony of Jesus.
You should read the whole chapter if you don't understand it
Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
You apparently believe this age does not end when Jesus returns and think it will end 1,000+ years later instead? Is that correct? I ask that because you seem to be saying that you believe Zechariah 14:16-19 is referring to the final days of this age and I know you believe Zech 14:16-19 occurs after Christ returns.
Matthew 24:3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
Do you see the disciples asking "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" as being 2 separate questions about 2 entirely different times?
tailgator
Well-Known Member
You answered all.incorrectly.
Jesus is not saying all nations.He said from the east and west.If you keep changing what Jesus says then you will never know the truth.
Mathew 8:11
I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.
Abraham was promised the land of Canaan for an everlasting possession.
Genesis 17:8
The whole land of Canaan, where you now reside as a foreigner, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.”
The land of Canaan is where New Jerusalem comes down too.You should read Ezekiel 40-48.You can read about the river of the water of life in the land of Canaan running down to the dead sea and all the fish being caught out of the dead sea.
Did I say otherwise? Are you purposely missing the point? He also said north and south. Is that hard for you to understand?
Luke 13:28 “There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. 29 People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God.
Do you understand that each gospel account does not contain all the same details? Sometimes details are included in one gospel account, but not the others. For example, there is only one Olivet Discourse and it's recorded in Matthew 24-25, Mark 13 and Luke 21. But, they don't all contain all of the same details. They don't all contain everything that Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse. So, you have to look at them all to see everything He said. That's the case for Matthew 8:11-12 as well. Luke included details about what Jesus said there that Matthew did not. Including that those in the kingdom of heaven/God would not only come from the east and west, but also the north and south. That is a figurative way of saying that people in the kingdom of heaven/God are from all over the world.
tailgator
Well-Known Member
You said that I said.
Those were not my words.They were Jesus's words.
If you have a problem with Jesus words,take it up with Jesus
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