It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[David in NJ]

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. We are not appointed to wrath. Tribulation is not wrath.

Do you think that the 7 trumpets of wrath have occurred? Do you think any of the trumpets have occurred?

While i am eating BF, did you read post #1217 ?

 

[MA2444]

The church is being attacked here, and the ones helping to attack it, in this case, are Pretribbers.

That's kind of harsh, dont you think? What kind of heart do you have, to accuse Brothers in Christ of attacking the church with pre trib teachings ?

Can't refute the issues on the topic so shoot the messenger, huh? How could you think to be so crassly hostile to Believers who Believe slighty different than you do? A divided Kingdom can not stand. Dont you think we know that? Dont you think we love the same Jesus as you do?

For shame brother. If you cant discuss bible issues with more scholarly intent than that seems to be, then perhaps you should step down as a teacher and a scholar until you better versed in the topic. Us pre tribbers do not see you post trib/amil types as the enemy in normal discouse. They still taught having some class when I was a kid.

Accusing us of being Traitors! Maan! That's bad. Very bad.

 

[David in NJ]

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. We are not appointed to wrath. Tribulation is not wrath.

Do you think that the 7 trumpets of wrath have occurred? Do you think any of the trumpets have occurred?

in prayer right now for us who love the Savior our Redeemer and the Comforter

please watch this short video on the error of stubborness, rock throwing and the POWER of Love

 

[David in NJ]

That's kind of harsh, dont you think? What kind of heart do you have, to accuse Brothers in Christ of attacking the church with pre trib teachings ?

Can't refute the issues on the topic so shoot the messenger, huh? How could you think to be so crassly hostile to Believers who Believe slighty different than you do? A divided Kingdom can not stand. Dont you think we know that? Dont you think we love the same Jesus as you do?

For shame brother. If you cant discuss bible issues with more scholarly intent than that seems to be, then perhaps you should step down as a teacher and a scholar until you better versed in the topic. Us pre tribbers do not see you post trib/amil types as the enemy in normal discouse. They still taught having some class when I was a kid.

Accusing us of being Traitors! Maan! That's bad. Very bad.

Accusing us of being Traitors! Maan! That's bad. Very bad.

There is no mention of "traitors" in his post

i thought you were able to handle his open heart of sorrow over the division that pre-trib has created

They are rebelling against God's will that the church must go through great tribulation.

GOSPEL TRUTH

If you ask me to PROVE this i will show you where JESUS said this.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

in prayer right now for us who love the Savior our Redeemer and the Comforter

please watch this short video on the error of stubborness, rock throwing and the POWER of Love

Great song. Now there's something we can all agree on (I hope).

 

[MA2444]

There is no mention of "traitors" in his post

i thought you were able to handle his open heart of sorrow over the division that pre-trib has created

He accuses pre tribbers of attacking their own church with pre trib teachings.

What else do you call someone who attacks his own people? So he didnt say the word Traitors, but he did accuse us of being Traitors.

I've always reacted strongly to being accused of doing something that I did not do, and to stand up for all of my Pre trib brothers to this wrongness that the man was so casual about. Nevertheless, point well taken.

GOSPEL TRUTH

If you ask me to PROVE this i will show you where JESUS said this.

We are not in rebellion to God house! You merely disagree with us on timing of the rapture. I disagree with your view, but I havent accused you of being Traitor!

We're just talking and bickering and name calling and accusations have no part in any scholorly debate. So we disagree on the issue so let's degrade into accusations? That's utterly ridiculous.

I think I speak for all pre tribbers (but who know) but at least I am of the mind that we do not attack or rebel. We truely believe the pre trip rapture (theory lol) to be true and that while we will be raotured, they could miss it! They would have to go through the gret trib! Not fun! So I speak in warning and not in attack or rebellion. I have a certain sense of duty about it.

And all of will know when it happens, who was right in their theory.
For those that disagree with pre trib, just for a moment as an exercise imagine that on the very very very far fetched prolly aint true issue, what if we did have it right and you chose not to beieve it? We would be gone at the biggest BBQ the universe has ever seen, and they would be hunting for you to behead you, and you cant get your momma's medicine because you didnt take the mark? What a difference that will be!

Someone had made the remark, I forget who, that, we somehow think we can or have to earn our right to be raptured? Something like that, and it aint about that, however, Luke does comment on the subject when he is speaking about the rapture.

Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.../KJV Look it up!

Worthy to "escape" these things that shall come to pass? It doesnt say, "endure"...it says, Escape. Have post tribbers made God a liar? I mean, created a contradiction that needs explained?

If everyone including the church has to endure the 7 year tribulatin period, then who is escaping anything? No one!

Come on Brother! Let's exegete this verse from Luke!

Attack & Rebellion indeed! Ha!

 

[MA2444]

Great song. Now there's something we can all agree on (I hope).

Lol! I agree. That's a great song.

 

[David in NJ]

He accuses pre tribbers of attacking their own church with pre trib teachings.

What else do you call someone who attacks his own people? So he didnt say the word Traitors, but he did accuse us of being Traitors.

I've always reacted strongly to being accused of doing something that I did not do, and to stand up for all of my Pre trib brothers to this wrongness that the man was so casual about. Nevertheless, point well taken.



We are not in rebellion to God house! You merely disagree with us on timing of the rapture. I disagree with your view, but I havent accused you of being Traitor!

We're just talking and bickering and name calling and accusations have no part in any scholorly debate. So we disagree on the issue so let's degrade into accusations? That's utterly ridiculous.

I think I speak for all pre tribbers (but who know) but at least I am of the mind that we do not attack or rebel. We truely believe the pre trip rapture (theory lol) to be true and that while we will be raotured, they could miss it! They would have to go through the gret trib! Not fun! So I speak in warning and not in attack or rebellion. I have a certain sense of duty about it.

And all of will know when it happens, who was right in their theory.
For those that disagree with pre trib, just for a moment as an exercise imagine that on the very very very far fetched prolly aint true issue, what if we did have it right and you chose not to beieve it? We would be gone at the biggest BBQ the universe has ever seen, and they would be hunting for you to behead you, and you cant get your momma's medicine because you didnt take the mark? What a difference that will be!

Someone had made the remark, I forget who, that, we somehow think we can or have to earn our right to be raptured? Something like that, and it aint about that, however, Luke does comment on the subject when he is speaking about the rapture.

Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.../KJV Look it up!

Worthy to "escape" these things that shall come to pass? It doesnt say, "endure"...it says, Escape. Have post tribbers made God a liar? I mean, created a contradiction that needs explained?

If everyone including the church has to endure the 7 year tribulatin period, then who is escaping anything? No one!

Come on Brother! Let's exegete this verse from Luke!

Attack & Rebellion indeed! Ha!

LUKE chapter 21 NEVER mentions, NEVER, a single pre-trib word = not a single one.

OPEN you heart to receive the TRUTH of what JESUS and the Apostles and the OT prophets are WARNING you of!

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

LUKE chapter 21 NEVER mentions, NEVER, a single pre-trib word = not a single one.

Right. Not even close. What are we to pray to be worthy to escape? A 7 year time period of tribulation as pretribs believe? No. We should pray to be worthy to escape the wrath that will come down when Jesus comes.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So, the context of verse 36 is in relation to verses 33 to 36 and not to everything that Jesus had previously said. He was talking about escaping what will happen unexpectedly on "that day" He returns because "as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth".

We will escape His wrath on that day, but unbelievers will not, as Paul taught:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Paul was talking here about the same thing Jesus did in Luke 21:33-36 because he was talking about the day of the Lord coming unexpectedly. Jesus said to pray to be worthy to escape His wrath that will come down on that day because unbelievers will have "sudden destruction" come upon them and they "shall not escape".

 

[MA2444]

LUKE chapter 21 NEVER mentions, NEVER, a single pre-trib word = not a single one.

What can I say Brother? The Lord did not write intros to His subject which said "Lets talk about the pre trib rapture now....He just didnt. I didnt write it.

Nevertheless, perhaps I have it completely wrong for the sake of argument. WHat is He talking about? Escaping what if the rapture is post trib? There's nothing to escape from at that point.

It creates a contradiction in the post trib theory.

 

[David in NJ]

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. We are not appointed to wrath. Tribulation is not wrath.

Do you think that the 7 trumpets of wrath have occurred? Do you think any of the trumpets have occurred?

Just returned home now.

VERY BUSY morning and have not forgotten you.

OK let's take a look.

 

[David in NJ]

The tribulation is over at the 6th seal. Then the wrath of God begins. We are not appointed to wrath. Tribulation is not wrath.

Do you think that the 7 trumpets of wrath have occurred? Do you think any of the trumpets have occurred?

Quick read thru:

#1 - ALL 6 Seals have already been opened.

#2 - the 7th Seal also has been opened.

#3 - i do not, at present , SEE any of the Trumpets being actuated/implemented/performed.

 

[David in NJ]

Good Morning and EXCELLENT question(s) - thank you

i am having breakfast so grant some time

i do not, at present , SEE any of the Trumpets being actuated/implemented/performed.

 

[The Light]

Quick read thru:

#1 - ALL 6 Seals have already been opened.

#2 - the 7th Seal also has been opened.

#3 - i do not, at present , SEE any of the Trumpets being actuated/implemented/performed.

If all 6 seals have been opened why have we not seen Jesus in the clouds.

You seem to realize that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal as you have quoted IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

And yet why have we not seen Jesus.

and NO seals have been opened.

 

[Douggg]

If all 6 seals have been opened why have we not seen Jesus in the clouds.

You seem to realize that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal as you have quoted IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

And yet why have we not seen Jesus.

and NO seals have been opened.

There are seven seals on the book (Revelation 5:1). Nonetheless, I understand the intent of what you are saying as being - none of the events of the seven seals have taken place yet. I suggest you phrase it like that.

Jesus opened all of the seals on the book back when John was taken to heaven. Otherwise, John could not have written down what he saw and was told when Jesus opened each seal.

 

[The Light]

There are seven seals on the book (Revelation 5:1). Nonetheless, I understand the intent of what you are saying as being - none of the events of the seven seals have taken place yet. I suggest you phrase it like that.

Jesus opened all of the seals on the book back when John was taken to heaven. Otherwise, John could not have written down what he saw and was told when Jesus opened each seal.

John saw a vision of the seals being opened.

As of today, none of the seals have been opened.

 

[David in NJ]

If all 6 seals have been opened why have we not seen Jesus in the clouds.

You seem to realize that the tribulation is over at the 6th seal as you have quoted IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS.

And yet why have we not seen Jesus.

and NO seals have been opened.

Revelation 1:1 -"The revelation......"

[ This is the ] revelation
Ἀποκάλυψις (Apokalypsis)
Noun - Nominative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 602: An unveiling, uncovering, revealing, revelation. From apokalupto; disclosure.

Because they are NOT actuations of the VISION/REVEALINGS/PROPHECY

Some are REVEALINGS of things that ARE and things yet to COME

Revelation 22:18 - "....of this prophecy"

prophecy
προφητείας (prophēteias)
Noun - Genitive Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 4394: Prophecy, prophesying; the gift of communicating and enforcing revealed truth. From prophetes; prediction.

 

[David in NJ]

John saw a vision of the seals being opened.

As of today, none of the seals have been opened.

John saw a vision of the seals being opened.

100% CORRECT

 

[Douggg]

John saw a vision of the seals being opened.

As of today, none of the seals have been opened.

John did not see "a vision" of the seals being opened. John saw Jesus open the seals on the book, the day John was taken to heaven.

When the seals were opened by Jesus- John saw what was in the book. The things in the book were visions of what would take place in the future.

For example, when Jesus opened the first seal in Revelation 5:1, one of the four beasts present said "Come and see". What John then saw was a vision of the rider on the white horse that would take place in the future. Still unfulfilled.

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So instead of saying none of the seals have been opened.... instead say - none of the events in the visions of the book, hidden until Jesus opened the seals on it, have happen yet. Such as, the rider on the white horse.

 

[David in NJ]

John saw a vision of the seals being opened.

As of today, none of the seals have been opened.

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