There is only one true church

[Brakelite]

Your sarcasm aside I, unlike you, didn't obtain my "Celtic church" history from an anti-Catholic historian to learn the real history of the "Celtic church". I researched multiple, reliable and unbiased historians. You should try it sometime and put your sarcasm and degrading quips in the trash. I think you can do a lot better than that.

Mary

Actually, I learn from historians who use multiple resources, both Catholic and non Catholic: the one i referred you to was one of many, for example, one historian who i trust and whose work I reference often refers to Alphonse Mingana ( “Early Spread of Christianity,” Bulletin of John Ryland’s Library). He said,
"Mingana proves that as early as A.D. 225 there existed large bishoprics or conferences of the Church of the East stretching from Palestine to, and surrounding, India. In 370 Abyssinian Christianity (a Sabbathkeeping church) was so popular that its famous director, Musaeus, traveled extensively in the East promoting the church in Arabia, Persia, India, and China. In 410 Isaac, supreme director of the Church of the East, held a world council, — stimulated, some think, by the trip of Musaeus, — attended by eastern delegates from forty grand metropolitan divisions. In 411 he appointed a metropolitan director for China. These churches were sanctifying the seventh day, as can be seen by the famous testimonies of Socrates and Sozomen, Roman Catholic historians (c. A.D. 450), that all the churches throughout the world sanctified Saturday except Rome and Alexandria, which two alone exalted Sunday. A century later (c. A.D. 540) Cosmas, the celebrated world traveler, a member of the great Church of the East, testified to the multiplied number of churches of his faith he had seen in India and central Asia and to those he had learned about in Scythia and China. I have often written of the Sabbathkeeping Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and English Churches in the British Isles during these same centuries and down to 1200. Others have dwelt upon the Paulicians, Petrobrusians, Passagians, Waldenses, Insabbatati, as great Sabbathkeeping bodies of Europe down to 1250. They write of the sabbatarians in Bohemia, Transylvania, England, and Holland between 1250 and 1600, as authenticated by Cox, Jones, Allix, and William of Neuburg. The innumerable Sabbath-keeping churches among the Greeks, Abyssinians, Armenians, Maronites, Jacobites, Scythians, and the great Church of the East (also from A.D. 1250 to 1600) with supporting evidence from competent authorities. The doctrines of all these Sabbathkeeping bodies throughout the centuries were comparatively pure, and the lives of their members were simple and holy. They were free from the unscriptural ceremonies which arose from the following of tradition. They received the Old Testament, and the whole Bible was their authority."

Catholicism, as now expressed in the teachings and traditions of the Roman Church, was never the one and only shop in town. And while some historians may have a bias against Catholicism for any number of reasons, that does not account for the multitude of historians whose testimony overwhelmingly supports the truth that the Roman church since the 4th to the 6th centuries morphed into a separate and distinct entity from the rest of the Christian world by fraternizing with the kings and queens of this world and uniting faith with politics. Being truthful doesn't mean being 'anti Catholic'.
Today, an image to this mediaeval union of church and state is being erected in the United States. They also have now abandoned faith in Christ and placing the trust in politicians and the rule of law to establish righteousness in the world. And they, like Rome, in their quest for global governance will a brief period succeed, but will ultimately fail, and when Jesus comes, be destroyed along with the rest of the Babylonian apostasy.
It's time to broaden your education and outlook, and obtain a different mindset than the rose tinted spectacles you and your Catholic friends here choose to use when studying religious history, prophecy, and current affairs.

As an example of the wide base of information used, here are the footnotes of just one chapter in one book I have read... note the variety of sources, note that among those sources there are Catholic and non Catholic representatives... as you will notice, the author also visited various sites and spoke with locals and studied the archaeology of the various regions he wrote about.

1 Burgon and Miller, The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospel, p. 123.
2 Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, vol. 1, p. 396.
3 The writer, in examining this Samaritan manuscript when he visited Samaria, was surprised to find it in so good a condition, considering its great age.
4 Geddes, The Church History of Ethiopia, p. 9.
5 O’Leary, The Syriac Church and Fathers, p. 21.
6 Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, vol. 1, p. 74. Also Schurer, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Christ, 2d div., vol. 2, p. 271.
7 See the author’s discussion in Chapter 4, entitled, “The Silent Cities of Syria.”
8 Gordon, “World Healers,” p. 450, note 2.
9 Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews, ch. 7, found in Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pp. 157, 158.
10 Newman, A Manual of Church History, vol. 1, p. 297. 11 Bigg, The Origins of Christianity, pp. 143, 144.
12 Burgon, The Revision Revised, p. 9; Burkitt, Early Eastern Christianity, p. 41.
13 Menzies, Saint Columba of Iona, pp 11-13, see ch. 11, note 5; Fitzpatrick, Ireland and the Making of Britain, p. 160.
14 Ridgeway, The Early Age of Greece, vol. 1, p. 356.
15 Fitzpatrick, Ireland and the Making of Britain, p. 30.
16 Gordon, “World Healers,” p. 78.
17 O’Leary, The Syriac Church and Fathers, p. 32. 20.
18 Stokes, Ireland and the Celtic Church, p. 3.
19 Warner, The Albigensian Heresy, vol. 1, p. 19.
20 Hyde, A Literary History of Ireland, pp. 6, 7.
21 Stokes, Ireland and the Celtic Church, pp. 27, 28; Gilly, Vigilantius and His Times, p. 116; Smith and Wace, A Dictionary of Christian Biography, art. Patricius”; Nolan, The Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, p. 17; Warner, The Albigensian Heresy, vol. 1, p. 12; Betham, Irish Antiquarian Researches.
22 Milman, History of Latin Christianity, vol. 1, p. 1, Introduction.
23 Westcott and Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek, vol. 2, p. 142.
24 Cubberley, The History of Education, p. 138.
25 Jones, The History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, p. 294.
26 Westcott and Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek, vol. 2, p. 142.
27 Burgon and Miller, The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels, p. 145.
28 This can be read in the last chapter of Acts and in the second epistle to Timothy.
29 Michael the Syrian, Chronique de Michel le Syrien, vol. 1, pp. 247-253.
30 To sum it up, Dr. Adam Clarke says: “After considering all that has been said by learned men and critics on this place, I am quite of the opinion that the apostle does not mean Babylon in Egypt, nor Jerusalem, nor Rome as figurative Babylon, but the ancient celebrated Babylon in Assyria, which was, as Dr. Benson observes, the metropolis of the eastern dispersion of the Jews; but as I have said so much on this subject in the preface, I beg leave to refer the reader to that place.” — Commentary, on 1 Peter 5:13.
31 Abul Faraj, Chronography, vol. 1, p. 50.
32 Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, b. 3, ch. 1, found in Nicene and PostNicene Fathers. 33 Adeney, The Greek and Eastern Churches, pp. 297, 298. 34 Fisher, History of the Christian Church, p. 45; Gordon, “World Healers,” p. 243.
35 Rawlinson, The Seven Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World (Sixth Monarchy), vol. 3, p. 225.
36 This conclusion has its opponents, but many scholarly and dependable writers have ceased to be in doubt about this and have settled it to their own satisfaction that the apostle Thomas laid the foundation of Christianity in India. See the author’s discussion in Chapter 14, “The St. Thomas Christians of India.”
37 Adeney, The Greek and Eastern Churches, p. 296.
38 Burgon, The Revision Revised, p. 27.
39 Yohannan, The Death of a Nation, p. 39.

 

[Brakelite]

Sabbatarians challenge from Scripture:

John 20:1
Acts 20:7
1 Corinthians 16:2
Revelation 1:10

Sabbatarians ignore (twist) Scripture.

Sabbatarians challenge from Christian history:

The Didache
The Epistle of Barnabas
Ignatius of Antioch
Justin Martyr


Sabbatarians ignore the writings of the men who lived closest to the time of Christ and instead choose to listen to men who lived 1,600 years later.

That is why Sabbatarians make up such a small percentage of Christianity because neither Scripture nor Christian history is on their side and most people are not easily fooled.

With that said I know the facts I have just presented will not change your mind. But my goal was not to change your mind.....It is to reveal the Truth: John 8:32

Noted, and answered.

 

[Hobie]

Don't limit God. He can give life to the dead. He can start a new congregation, even a denomination, and better still, a movement of Spirit filled God led born again converts to righteousness with earnest and loving hearts toward lost sinners, and having a yearning for the gospel to be taught throughout the world, changing lives and building the kingdom of God. He doesn't need you or me, your church or mine. He can do that from rocks.
But in His grace and mercy, He has chosen individuals to share the last message of mercy to mankind before He comes to take His people home. Those individuals He has brought together, and are the only true global Christian church teaching the truth. They are called Seventh Day Adventists. That doesn't mean there aren't true Christians belonging to other denominations, not excluding your own. But there is only one that has a truly prophetic message, presenting the pure gospel of grace by faith, righteousness by faith, and presenting unarguable evidence from scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ, presently ministering in the heavenly sanctuary as our High Priest, is soon to return. Before then however, is a crisis. A clash of minds. On the one hand is a movement trusting in Christ and Him alone to build His kingdom. On the other hand, there are genuine sincere Christians who are seeking to accomplish the establishment of righteousness in the world using politics and worldly power. There are yet many in the middle, undecided, perhaps not sure of where to take their stand, but who must be informed before it's too late. Because in the end, there are only two sides. Babylon the Great with her adulterous relationship with the kings of the earth, and her most hated enemy, the other woman of Revelation 12, God's people, spiritual Israel, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus, which is the spirit of prophecy.
Yes. God does have a one true church. But the one centered in Rome is not as old as you would like to believe. There are older churches than the RCC. The Assyrian church of the East, founded by missionaries from Antioch and Syria, before Peter or Paul went to Rome. The Celtic church of northern Italy, southern France, and Britain, founded by Celtic missionaries that were converted by Paul and Barnabas and friends in Galatia. Those churches, which in turn gave rise to the Albigenses and the Waldenses, were truly Apostolic. The early Roman church was also Apostolic. But in the 6th century, adopted politics as the means by which to spread its doctrines around the world. Through that act of treachery, became divorced from Christ, and became Antichrist.
Today, sadly, we witness the Protestant churches in America doing that same thing, adopting politics, fornicating with the kings of this world, creating an image to the medieval papacy.

And the only true globally protesting church to these acts of apostasy and treachery is the Seventh Day Adventist church. It is now time to come out of Babylon. That ancient persecuting power is doomed and destined to destruction. She may claim to be God's church, that she is no widow, and has power and authority over all the kings of the earth, but God says,
"Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. ”
Revelation 18:4 KJV

Very true, God has a chosen people who have a relationship with Christ built on love and obedience to Christ, these others who reject Him and the truth given in His Word, will find out their road only leads to perdition.

 

[Brakelite]

There were lawss pertaining to morals, which are timeless.

So now it is up to you to prove that keeping Sunday, a tradition of the Catholic Church, is more moral than obeying a specific commandment of God.
Also, I would be interested if you care to defend Sunday as merely "ceremonial"? No-one I know, either Jewish or Seventh Day Adventist or Seventh Day Baptist, thinks the Sabbath is, or ever was, "ceremonial".

 

[Marymog]

Noted, and answered.

Responded too does not = answered

 

[Marymog]

Actually, I learn from historians who use multiple resources, both Catholic and non Catholic: the one i referred you to was one of many, for example, one historian who i trust and whose work I reference often refers to Alphonse Mingana ( “Early Spread of Christianity,” Bulletin of John Ryland’s Library). He said,
"Mingana proves that as early as A.D. 225 there existed large bishoprics or conferences of the Church of the East stretching from Palestine to, and surrounding, India. In 370 Abyssinian Christianity (a Sabbathkeeping church) was so popular that its famous director, Musaeus, traveled extensively in the East promoting the church in Arabia, Persia, India, and China. In 410 Isaac, supreme director of the Church of the East, held a world council, — stimulated, some think, by the trip of Musaeus, — attended by eastern delegates from forty grand metropolitan divisions. In 411 he appointed a metropolitan director for China. These churches were sanctifying the seventh day, as can be seen by the famous testimonies of Socrates and Sozomen, Roman Catholic historians (c. A.D. 450), that all the churches throughout the world sanctified Saturday except Rome and Alexandria, which two alone exalted Sunday. A century later (c. A.D. 540) Cosmas, the celebrated world traveler, a member of the great Church of the East, testified to the multiplied number of churches of his faith he had seen in India and central Asia and to those he had learned about in Scythia and China. I have often written of the Sabbathkeeping Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and English Churches in the British Isles during these same centuries and down to 1200. Others have dwelt upon the Paulicians, Petrobrusians, Passagians, Waldenses, Insabbatati, as great Sabbathkeeping bodies of Europe down to 1250. They write of the sabbatarians in Bohemia, Transylvania, England, and Holland between 1250 and 1600, as authenticated by Cox, Jones, Allix, and William of Neuburg. The innumerable Sabbath-keeping churches among the Greeks, Abyssinians, Armenians, Maronites, Jacobites, Scythians, and the great Church of the East (also from A.D. 1250 to 1600) with supporting evidence from competent authorities. The doctrines of all these Sabbathkeeping bodies throughout the centuries were comparatively pure, and the lives of their members were simple and holy. They were free from the unscriptural ceremonies which arose from the following of tradition. They received the Old Testament, and the whole Bible was their authority."

Catholicism, as now expressed in the teachings and traditions of the Roman Church, was never the one and only shop in town. And while some historians may have a bias against Catholicism for any number of reasons, that does not account for the multitude of historians whose testimony overwhelmingly supports the truth that the Roman church since the 4th to the 6th centuries morphed into a separate and distinct entity from the rest of the Christian world by fraternizing with the kings and queens of this world and uniting faith with politics. Being truthful doesn't mean being 'anti Catholic'.
Today, an image to this mediaeval union of church and state is being erected in the United States. They also have now abandoned faith in Christ and placing the trust in politicians and the rule of law to establish righteousness in the world. And they, like Rome, in their quest for global governance will a brief period succeed, but will ultimately fail, and when Jesus comes, be destroyed along with the rest of the Babylonian apostasy.
It's time to broaden your education and outlook, and obtain a different mindset than the rose tinted spectacles you and your Catholic friends here choose to use when studying religious history, prophecy, and current affairs.

As an example of the wide base of information used, here are the footnotes of just one chapter in one book I have read... note the variety of sources, note that among those sources there are Catholic and non Catholic representatives... as you will notice, the author also visited various sites and spoke with locals and studied the archaeology of the various regions he wrote about.

1 Burgon and Miller, The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospel, p. 123.
2 Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, vol. 1, p. 396.
3 The writer, in examining this Samaritan manuscript when he visited Samaria, was surprised to find it in so good a condition, considering its great age.
4 Geddes, The Church History of Ethiopia, p. 9.
5 O’Leary, The Syriac Church and Fathers, p. 21.
6 Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, vol. 1, p. 74. Also Schurer, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Christ, 2d div., vol. 2, p. 271.
7 See the author’s discussion in Chapter 4, entitled, “The Silent Cities of Syria.”
8 Gordon, “World Healers,” p. 450, note 2.
9 Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews, ch. 7, found in Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pp. 157, 158.
10 Newman, A Manual of Church History, vol. 1, p. 297. 11 Bigg, The Origins of Christianity, pp. 143, 144.
12 Burgon, The Revision Revised, p. 9; Burkitt, Early Eastern Christianity, p. 41.
13 Menzies, Saint Columba of Iona, pp 11-13, see ch. 11, note 5; Fitzpatrick, Ireland and the Making of Britain, p. 160.
14 Ridgeway, The Early Age of Greece, vol. 1, p. 356.
15 Fitzpatrick, Ireland and the Making of Britain, p. 30.
16 Gordon, “World Healers,” p. 78.
17 O’Leary, The Syriac Church and Fathers, p. 32. 20.
18 Stokes, Ireland and the Celtic Church, p. 3.
19 Warner, The Albigensian Heresy, vol. 1, p. 19.
20 Hyde, A Literary History of Ireland, pp. 6, 7.
21 Stokes, Ireland and the Celtic Church, pp. 27, 28; Gilly, Vigilantius and His Times, p. 116; Smith and Wace, A Dictionary of Christian Biography, art. Patricius”; Nolan, The Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, p. 17; Warner, The Albigensian Heresy, vol. 1, p. 12; Betham, Irish Antiquarian Researches.
22 Milman, History of Latin Christianity, vol. 1, p. 1, Introduction.
23 Westcott and Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek, vol. 2, p. 142.
24 Cubberley, The History of Education, p. 138.
25 Jones, The History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, p. 294.
26 Westcott and Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek, vol. 2, p. 142.
27 Burgon and Miller, The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels, p. 145.
28 This can be read in the last chapter of Acts and in the second epistle to Timothy.
29 Michael the Syrian, Chronique de Michel le Syrien, vol. 1, pp. 247-253.
30 To sum it up, Dr. Adam Clarke says: “After considering all that has been said by learned men and critics on this place, I am quite of the opinion that the apostle does not mean Babylon in Egypt, nor Jerusalem, nor Rome as figurative Babylon, but the ancient celebrated Babylon in Assyria, which was, as Dr. Benson observes, the metropolis of the eastern dispersion of the Jews; but as I have said so much on this subject in the preface, I beg leave to refer the reader to that place.” — Commentary, on 1 Peter 5:13.
31 Abul Faraj, Chronography, vol. 1, p. 50.
32 Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, b. 3, ch. 1, found in Nicene and PostNicene Fathers. 33 Adeney, The Greek and Eastern Churches, pp. 297, 298. 34 Fisher, History of the Christian Church, p. 45; Gordon, “World Healers,” p. 243.
35 Rawlinson, The Seven Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World (Sixth Monarchy), vol. 3, p. 225.
36 This conclusion has its opponents, but many scholarly and dependable writers have ceased to be in doubt about this and have settled it to their own satisfaction that the apostle Thomas laid the foundation of Christianity in India. See the author’s discussion in Chapter 14, “The St. Thomas Christians of India.”
37 Adeney, The Greek and Eastern Churches, p. 296.
38 Burgon, The Revision Revised, p. 27.
39 Yohannan, The Death of a Nation, p. 39.

Brakelite,

I have never said that there were not any sabbath keeping churches in early Christianity. Historically we know there was, but a majority were not. The Church, via Church Councils, addressed that issue. But you already know that.

Also, you said, "here are the footnotes of just one chapter in one book I have read". What book was that? Footnotes in a book is not evidence of predominate Sabbath keeping by Christians.

Two of those people in your footnotes, Eusebius and Tertullian, wrote how Sunday worship was the norm for Christianity.

Mary

 

[RedFan]

Actually, I learn from historians who use multiple resources, both Catholic and non Catholic: the one i referred you to was one of many, for example, one historian who i trust and whose work I reference often refers to Alphonse Mingana ( “Early Spread of Christianity,” Bulletin of John Ryland’s Library). He said,
"Mingana proves that as early as A.D. 225 there existed large bishoprics or conferences of the Church of the East stretching from Palestine to, and surrounding, India. In 370 Abyssinian Christianity (a Sabbathkeeping church) was so popular that its famous director, Musaeus, traveled extensively in the East promoting the church in Arabia, Persia, India, and China. In 410 Isaac, supreme director of the Church of the East, held a world council, — stimulated, some think, by the trip of Musaeus, — attended by eastern delegates from forty grand metropolitan divisions. In 411 he appointed a metropolitan director for China. These churches were sanctifying the seventh day, as can be seen by the famous testimonies of Socrates and Sozomen, Roman Catholic historians (c. A.D. 450), that all the churches throughout the world sanctified Saturday except Rome and Alexandria, which two alone exalted Sunday. A century later (c. A.D. 540) Cosmas, the celebrated world traveler, a member of the great Church of the East, testified to the multiplied number of churches of his faith he had seen in India and central Asia and to those he had learned about in Scythia and China. I have often written of the Sabbathkeeping Irish, Scottish, Welsh, and English Churches in the British Isles during these same centuries and down to 1200. Others have dwelt upon the Paulicians, Petrobrusians, Passagians, Waldenses, Insabbatati, as great Sabbathkeeping bodies of Europe down to 1250. They write of the sabbatarians in Bohemia, Transylvania, England, and Holland between 1250 and 1600, as authenticated by Cox, Jones, Allix, and William of Neuburg. The innumerable Sabbath-keeping churches among the Greeks, Abyssinians, Armenians, Maronites, Jacobites, Scythians, and the great Church of the East (also from A.D. 1250 to 1600) with supporting evidence from competent authorities. The doctrines of all these Sabbathkeeping bodies throughout the centuries were comparatively pure, and the lives of their members were simple and holy. They were free from the unscriptural ceremonies which arose from the following of tradition. They received the Old Testament, and the whole Bible was their authority."

Catholicism, as now expressed in the teachings and traditions of the Roman Church, was never the one and only shop in town. And while some historians may have a bias against Catholicism for any number of reasons, that does not account for the multitude of historians whose testimony overwhelmingly supports the truth that the Roman church since the 4th to the 6th centuries morphed into a separate and distinct entity from the rest of the Christian world by fraternizing with the kings and queens of this world and uniting faith with politics. Being truthful doesn't mean being 'anti Catholic'.
Today, an image to this mediaeval union of church and state is being erected in the United States. They also have now abandoned faith in Christ and placing the trust in politicians and the rule of law to establish righteousness in the world. And they, like Rome, in their quest for global governance will a brief period succeed, but will ultimately fail, and when Jesus comes, be destroyed along with the rest of the Babylonian apostasy.
It's time to broaden your education and outlook, and obtain a different mindset than the rose tinted spectacles you and your Catholic friends here choose to use when studying religious history, prophecy, and current affairs.

As an example of the wide base of information used, here are the footnotes of just one chapter in one book I have read... note the variety of sources, note that among those sources there are Catholic and non Catholic representatives... as you will notice, the author also visited various sites and spoke with locals and studied the archaeology of the various regions he wrote about.

1 Burgon and Miller, The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospel, p. 123.
2 Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, vol. 1, p. 396.
3 The writer, in examining this Samaritan manuscript when he visited Samaria, was surprised to find it in so good a condition, considering its great age.
4 Geddes, The Church History of Ethiopia, p. 9.
5 O’Leary, The Syriac Church and Fathers, p. 21.
6 Edersheim, The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, vol. 1, p. 74. Also Schurer, A History of the Jewish People in the Time of Christ, 2d div., vol. 2, p. 271.
7 See the author’s discussion in Chapter 4, entitled, “The Silent Cities of Syria.”
8 Gordon, “World Healers,” p. 450, note 2.
9 Tertullian, An Answer to the Jews, ch. 7, found in Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. 3, pp. 157, 158.
10 Newman, A Manual of Church History, vol. 1, p. 297. 11 Bigg, The Origins of Christianity, pp. 143, 144.
12 Burgon, The Revision Revised, p. 9; Burkitt, Early Eastern Christianity, p. 41.
13 Menzies, Saint Columba of Iona, pp 11-13, see ch. 11, note 5; Fitzpatrick, Ireland and the Making of Britain, p. 160.
14 Ridgeway, The Early Age of Greece, vol. 1, p. 356.
15 Fitzpatrick, Ireland and the Making of Britain, p. 30.
16 Gordon, “World Healers,” p. 78.
17 O’Leary, The Syriac Church and Fathers, p. 32. 20.
18 Stokes, Ireland and the Celtic Church, p. 3.
19 Warner, The Albigensian Heresy, vol. 1, p. 19.
20 Hyde, A Literary History of Ireland, pp. 6, 7.
21 Stokes, Ireland and the Celtic Church, pp. 27, 28; Gilly, Vigilantius and His Times, p. 116; Smith and Wace, A Dictionary of Christian Biography, art. Patricius”; Nolan, The Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, p. 17; Warner, The Albigensian Heresy, vol. 1, p. 12; Betham, Irish Antiquarian Researches.
22 Milman, History of Latin Christianity, vol. 1, p. 1, Introduction.
23 Westcott and Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek, vol. 2, p. 142.
24 Cubberley, The History of Education, p. 138.
25 Jones, The History of the Christian Church, vol. 2, p. 294.
26 Westcott and Hort, The New Testament in the Original Greek, vol. 2, p. 142.
27 Burgon and Miller, The Traditional Text of the Holy Gospels, p. 145.
28 This can be read in the last chapter of Acts and in the second epistle to Timothy.
29 Michael the Syrian, Chronique de Michel le Syrien, vol. 1, pp. 247-253.
30 To sum it up, Dr. Adam Clarke says: “After considering all that has been said by learned men and critics on this place, I am quite of the opinion that the apostle does not mean Babylon in Egypt, nor Jerusalem, nor Rome as figurative Babylon, but the ancient celebrated Babylon in Assyria, which was, as Dr. Benson observes, the metropolis of the eastern dispersion of the Jews; but as I have said so much on this subject in the preface, I beg leave to refer the reader to that place.” — Commentary, on 1 Peter 5:13.
31 Abul Faraj, Chronography, vol. 1, p. 50.
32 Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, b. 3, ch. 1, found in Nicene and PostNicene Fathers. 33 Adeney, The Greek and Eastern Churches, pp. 297, 298. 34 Fisher, History of the Christian Church, p. 45; Gordon, “World Healers,” p. 243.
35 Rawlinson, The Seven Great Monarchies of the Ancient Eastern World (Sixth Monarchy), vol. 3, p. 225.
36 This conclusion has its opponents, but many scholarly and dependable writers have ceased to be in doubt about this and have settled it to their own satisfaction that the apostle Thomas laid the foundation of Christianity in India. See the author’s discussion in Chapter 14, “The St. Thomas Christians of India.”
37 Adeney, The Greek and Eastern Churches, p. 296.
38 Burgon, The Revision Revised, p. 27.
39 Yohannan, The Death of a Nation, p. 39.

I'm familiar with the book you quote from, Benjamin Wilkinson's Truth Triumhant: The Church in the Wilderness. It documents numerous instances where -- in the same community -- Saturday was observed as a day of rest in accordance with old Sabbath custom, while Sunday was set aside for worship as the Lord's day. (This practice is still popular in most places in the world!)

A minor point: I see your mention in fn. 4 of Geddes, The Church History of Ethiopia, p. 9. That page is silent on the Sabbath vs. Lord's Day issue. But p. 88 is not -- and it undercuts your thesis:

"We do observe the Lord's-Day after the manner of all other Christians, in memory of Christ's Resurrection. But as we are sensible that we have the observation of the Sabbath-Day from the Books of the Law and not from those of the Gospel, so we are not ignorant that the Gospel is the end of the Law and the Prophets."

 

[Brakelite]

I'm familiar with the book you quote from, Benjamin Wilkinson's Truth Triumhant: The Church in the Wilderness. It documents numerous instances where -- in the same community -- Saturday was observed as a day of rest in accordance with old Sabbath custom, while Sunday was set aside for worship as the Lord's day. (This practice is still popular in most places in the world!)

A minor point: I see your mention in fn. 4 of Geddes, The Church History of Ethiopia, p. 9. That page is silent on the Sabbath vs. Lord's Day issue. But p. 88 is not -- and it undercuts your thesis:

"We do observe the Lord's-Day after the manner of all other Christians, in memory of Christ's Resurrection. But as we are sensible that we have the observation of the Sabbath-Day from the Books of the Law and not from those of the Gospel, so we are not ignorant that the Gospel is the end of the Law and the Prophets."

Love that book. That reference of fn4 wasn't offered by the author as evidence for Sabbath observance, but for the Apostolic origins of the Ethiopian church. Which point I was at pains to make in referencing the church in the Wilderness, showing that Rome was never "the one true church", but in those early centuries, was but one of many church groups in a variety of nations whose links to Rome came only in later centuries, and seldom voluntarily.

 

[Brakelite]

With respect to Sabbath keeping by the Ethiopian church, Wilkinson gave us a more complete picture, quoting Geddes below (italics)

Sabbathkeeping among the Abyssinians is especially worthy of notice. Of them the historian Gibbon fittingly remarks, “Encompassed on all sides by the enemies of their religion, the Ethiopians slept near a thousand years, forgetful of the world, by whom they were forgotten.” When in the sixteenth century Europe again came into contact with the Abyssinians, the seventh day was found to be their weekly rest day; Sunday was only an assembly day. Sorely pressed by Mohammedanism, they made the same mistake which was made by the St. Thomas Christians of India in that they appealed for help in 1534 to the Portuguese, the greatest naval power of Europe in that day. The following argument was presented to Portugal by the Abyssinian ambassador when asked why Ethiopia sanctified the seventh day:
On the Sabbath day, because God, after he had finished the Creation of the World, rested thereon: Which Day, as God would have it called the Holy of Holies, so the not celebrating thereof with great honor and devotion, seems to be plainly contrary to God’s Will and Precept, who will suffer Heaven and Earth to pass away sooner than his Word; and that especially, since Christ came not to dissolve the Law, but to fulfill it. It is not therefore in imitation of the Jews, but in obedience to Christ and his holy Apostles, that we observe that Day.... We do observe the Lord’s day after the manner of all other Christians, in memory of Christ’s Resurrection. But as we are sensible that we have the observation of the Sabbath-Day from the Books of the Law and not from those of the Gospel, so we are not ignorant that the Gospel is the end of the Law and the Prophets."*

When the Portuguese made a gesture of sending help to the Abyssinians, a number of Jesuits were included in the mission, and they immediately began to win the Abyssinian Church to Roman Catholicism. In 1604 they influenced the king to submit to the Papacy. One of their first efforts was to have a proclamation issued by the king prohibiting all his subjects upon severe penalties to observe the seventh day any longer. Civil war followed. The Jesuits were expelled and their laws were rescinded.

* End of the Law does not mean extinct. It means the goal, the final culmination toward all the Torah pointed.

 

[uncle silas]

Those in heaven are more alive than we are. Consider, for example, that Jesus teaches that the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is “not God not of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32; see also 22:23-33). In addition, Moses and Elijah are alive to Jesus at the Transfiguration and converse with him, even though their earthly deaths had occurred many years before (see Matt. 17:1-8).

But Moses and Elijah didn't go to heaven when they left this earth did they: No one has ever entered Heaven except the one who came from Heaven, the son of man John3:13

 

[Johann]

I'm just not understanding your continual reference to a letter other than the sole letter I THOUGHT we were discussing: 2 Tim. 3:16, where Paul DOES mention graphē (= Scripture). Can you please focus on Second Timothy and nothing else for a moment? What did Paul mean by graphē here? I say the OT. How could it be anything else?

They are splitting hairs, majoring on minors.

The entire Kitvei HaKodesh is Hashem-breathed and useful for hora'ah (teaching), for reproof, for correction, for training in tzedek,
That the ish haElohim may be proficient, having been equipped for every one of the ma'asim mitzvot.

כי כל־הכתוב נכתב ברוח אלהים ומועיל להורת ולהוכיח ולישר ולהדריך במעגלי צדק׃
למען אשר־יהיה איש האלהים תמים ומוכן לכל־מעשה טוב׃


2Ti_3:16

All Scripture [Every Scripture] ... -- Many scholars like Lenski say there is no difference in these renderings by various translations. Most translations follow "All Scripture."

All Scripture -- would include the N.T. sacred writings as well as the Old Testament. As Paul has already referred to the OT in vs. 15, he now deliberately includes the Sacred Writings of the New Covenant as well.

Inspired of God -- Paul uses the Greek term theopneustos here which is a combination of two other Greek words: theos (“God”) and pneo (“breathe”) meaning “God-breathed". "God-breathed, means breathed into by God, inspired. The rabbinical teaching was that the Spirit of God rested on and in the prophets and spoke through them so that their words did not come from themselves, but from the mouth of God and they spoke and wrote in the Holy Spirit. The early church was in entire agreement with this view." (Rienecker, LKGNT)

INSPIRATION - 2Ti_3:16, 2Pe_1:21, 1Co_14:37, 1Th_2:13, Gal_1:11-12, Mat_17:5, Luk_1:68-70,

Profitable -- Scripture is valuable because it corrects false teaching while building up believers to live godly lives.

Doctrine -- Teaching; We must teach scripture.

Reproof -- Rebuke- for the purpose of “refutation” of a false statement or argument. PPC

"Only the Christian morality is the true ethic governing human behavior. The pre-Christian Gentiles forsook God, and the result was the near-universal debauchery of the human race. There can be no doubt that forsaking the NT ethics on such things as adultery, homosexuality, drunkenness, etc., if persisted in, will have the same final result." Coffman.

Correction -- Setting a person on a straight course.

Instruction -- Training, instructing believers in God's ways.

Doctrine = tells us what is right.
Reproof = tells us what is not right
Correction = tell how to get right
Instruction = tells how to stay right.

AUTHORITY OF THE BIBLE

2Ti_3:16,
Deu_18:20,
Rev_22:18-19,
Deu_4:2,
Num_24:12-13,
Luk_16:15,
Pro_14:12.
The final revelation - Gal_1:8-9,
Joh_16:13,
2Pe_1:3.



1) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (pasa graphe theopneustos) "Every scripture (is) God-breathed, inspired;" This means every sacred writing which is inspired of God is also profitable; Sacred writings of false religions were neither inspired nor profitable; 2Pe_1:20-21.

2) "And is profitable for" (kai opelemos pros) "Even profitable for;" Rom_15:4; 1Co_10:11; Psa_119:9-10; Psa_119:105; Psa_119:130.
a) "Doctrine" (didaskalian) "Teaching," Mat_28:20; Mat_24:35.
b) "For reproof" (pros elegmon) "For reproof," chiding for wrong, Pro_10:17; Pro_29:15.
c) "For correction" (pros epanorthosin) "For correction," making orthodox, true, or correct, Pro_3:11; Pro_22:15; Pro_23:13.
d) "For instruction in righteousness" (pros paideian ten en dikaosune) "For child-training in righteousness," for disciplinary purposes, Heb_12:5; Pro_12:1; Pro_13:1; Pro_15:32-33.


J.

 

[RedFan]

All Scripture -- would include the N.T. sacred writings as well as the Old Testament. As Paul has already referred to the OT in vs. 15, he now deliberately includes the Sacred Writings of the New Covenant as well.

I see it differently. I look at verse 15's "sacred writings" reference as in pari materia with verse 16's "scripture" reference.

15 and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

 

[Johann]

I see it differently. I look at verse 15's "sacred writings" reference as in pari materia with verse 16's "scripture" reference.

15 and how from childhood you have known the sacred writings that are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

Good to have opposing views.

1) "And that from a child" (kai hoti apo brephous) "And that from a babe in truth," as commanded in the Law of Moses, Deu_6:6-7; Pro_22:6; Eph_6:4.

2) "Thou hast known the holy scriptures" (hiera grammata oidas) "Sacred letters thou doest perceive," the Holy Scriptures, Joh_5:39. A trustworthy standard of right and wrong, unbreakable, Joh_10:35.

3) "Which are able to make thee wise unto salvation" (ta dunamena se sophisai eis soterian) "The ones (scriptures) being able to make thee wise with reference to salvation;" Pro_1:22-23; 1Pe_1:8-11; Rom_1:16.

4) "Through faith which is in Christ Jesus." (dia pisteos tes en Christo lesou) "Through faith (placed) in Christ Jesus," Joh_1:11-12; Act_16:31; Eph_2:8-9; Gal_3:26.

All Scripture - This properly refers to the Old Testament, and should not be applied to any part of the New Testament, unless it can be shown that that part was then written, and was included under the general name of “the Scriptures;” compare 2Pe_3:15-16. But it includes the whole of the Old Testament, and is the solemn testimony of Paul that it was all inspired. If now it can be proved that Paul himself was an inspired man, this settles the question as to the inspiration of the Old Testament.

Is given by inspiration of God - All this is expressed in the original by one word - Θεόπνευστος Theopneustos. This word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It properly means, God-inspired - from Θεός Theos, “God,” and πνέω pneō, “to breathe, to breathe out.” The idea of “breathing upon, or breathing into the soul,” is that which the word naturally conveys. Thus, God breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life Gen_2:7, and thus the Saviour breathed on his disciples, and said, “receive ye the Holy Ghost;” Joh_20:22. The idea seems to have been, that the life was in the breath, and that an intelligent spirit was communicated with the breath. The expression was used among the Greeks, and a similar one was employed by the Romans. Plutarch ed. R. 9. 583. 9. τοὺς ὀνείρους τοὺς θεοπνεύστους tous oneirous tous theopneustous. Phocylid. 121. τῆς δὲ θεοπνεύστου σοφίης λόγος ἐστὶν ἄριστος tēs de theopnoustou sophiēs logos estin aristos.
Barnes.
Verse 15:

καὶ ὅτι (kai hoti) – "and that" (conjunction introducing the clause referring back to Timothy’s knowledge of scripture from childhood)

ἀπὸ βρέφους (apo brephous) – "from childhood" (prepositional phrase showing when Timothy had knowledge of the sacred writings)

τὰ ἱερὰ γράμματα (ta hiera grammata) – "the sacred writings" (nominative plural; referring to the Scriptures Timothy was taught as a child, most likely the Old Testament)

οἶδας (oidas) – "you have known" (verb, perfect tense, active indicative; emphasizes Timothy’s enduring knowledge)

τὰ δυνάμενα (ta dunamena) – "which are able" (participle; describing the ability of the sacred writings)
σοφίσαι σε (sophisai se) – "to make you wise" (verb in aorist infinitive; implying instructing in wisdom)

εἰς σωτηρίαν (eis sōtērian) – "unto salvation" (prepositional phrase expressing the purpose of the wisdom gained)

διὰ πίστεως (dia pisteōs) – "through faith" (prepositional phrase showing the means by which salvation is attained)

τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ (tēs en Christō Iēsou) – "in Christ Jesus" (prepositional phrase specifying the object of faith)
Verse 16:

In pari materia --

πᾶσα γραφὴ (pasa graphē) – "all scripture" (nominative singular; referring to every scripture or sacred writing, encompassing both Old and New Testaments)

θεόπνευστος (theopneustos) – "inspired by God" (predicate adjective; describing the nature of scripture as divinely inspired)

καὶ ὠφέλιμος (kai ōphelimos) – "and useful" (adjective in nominative; indicating the practical value of scripture)

πρὸς διδασκαλίαν (pros didaskalian) – "for teaching" (prepositional phrase showing one of the purposes of scripture)

πρὸς ἔλεγχον (pros elegchon) – "for reproof" (prepositional phrase showing scripture’s role in correcting errors)

πρὸς ἐπανόρθωσιν (pros epanorthōsin) – "for correction" (prepositional phrase showing scripture’s role in restoring to proper conduct)

πρὸς παιδείαν (pros paideian) – "for training" (prepositional phrase showing the purpose of discipline and growth)

τὴν ἐν δικαιοσύνῃ (tēn en dikaiosynē) – "in righteousness" (prepositional phrase defining the nature of the training as moral and ethical growth)

Paul’s syntax emphasizes continuity from the sacred writings Timothy knew from childhood (verse 15) to all scripture (verse 16), possibly implying the inclusion of both the Old Testament and emerging New Testament writings.
Parallel structure in verse 16 reinforces the fourfold purpose of scripture: for teaching, reproof, correction, and training, each linked with prepositional phrases introduced by πρὸς (pros).

Verse 15:

"Sacred writings" refers to the Old Testament scriptures, as Timothy was taught these from childhood (likely by his Jewish mother and grandmother, see 2 Timothy 1:5).
At the time Paul wrote this letter, the New Testament canon was not yet fully established or recognized as a formal set of writings.
Verse 16:

"All scripture" (πᾶσα γραφὴ, pasa graphē) traditionally referred to the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) since these were the recognized and authoritative writings for Jews and early Christians at that time.
However, by the time Paul wrote this, some New Testament writings (like Paul’s own letters) were already being circulated and considered authoritative (e.g., 2 Peter 3:15-16 where Peter refers to Paul's letters as scripture). This hints that the concept of "scripture" could have started expanding to include these new Christian writings.

You still see it differently @RedFan?
J.

 

[RedFan]

Good to have opposing views.

1) "And that from a child" (kai hoti apo brephous) "And that from a babe in truth," as commanded in the Law of Moses, Deu_6:6-7; Pro_22:6; Eph_6:4.

2) "Thou hast known the holy scriptures" (hiera grammata oidas) "Sacred letters thou doest perceive," the Holy Scriptures, Joh_5:39. A trustworthy standard of right and wrong, unbreakable, Joh_10:35.

3) "Which are able to make thee wise unto salvation" (ta dunamena se sophisai eis soterian) "The ones (scriptures) being able to make thee wise with reference to salvation;" Pro_1:22-23; 1Pe_1:8-11; Rom_1:16.

4) "Through faith which is in Christ Jesus." (dia pisteos tes en Christo lesou) "Through faith (placed) in Christ Jesus," Joh_1:11-12; Act_16:31; Eph_2:8-9; Gal_3:26.

All Scripture - This properly refers to the Old Testament, and should not be applied to any part of the New Testament, unless it can be shown that that part was then written, and was included under the general name of “the Scriptures;” compare 2Pe_3:15-16. But it includes the whole of the Old Testament, and is the solemn testimony of Paul that it was all inspired. If now it can be proved that Paul himself was an inspired man, this settles the question as to the inspiration of the Old Testament.

Is given by inspiration of God - All this is expressed in the original by one word - Θεόπνευστος Theopneustos. This word occurs nowhere else in the New Testament. It properly means, God-inspired - from Θεός Theos, “God,” and πνέω pneō, “to breathe, to breathe out.” The idea of “breathing upon, or breathing into the soul,” is that which the word naturally conveys. Thus, God breathed into the nostrils of Adam the breath of life Gen_2:7, and thus the Saviour breathed on his disciples, and said, “receive ye the Holy Ghost;” Joh_20:22. The idea seems to have been, that the life was in the breath, and that an intelligent spirit was communicated with the breath. The expression was used among the Greeks, and a similar one was employed by the Romans. Plutarch ed. R. 9. 583. 9. τοὺς ὀνείρους τοὺς θεοπνεύστους tous oneirous tous theopneustous. Phocylid. 121. τῆς δὲ θεοπνεύστου σοφίης λόγος ἐστὶν ἄριστος tēs de theopnoustou sophiēs logos estin aristos.
Barnes.

J.

Point taken. I should mention that I believe all scripture -- OT and NT -- to be inspired and useful for all of the things Paul mentions to Timothy in 2 Tim. 3:16. My sole point is that I don't think Paul intended his use of graphē in that verse to refer to NT writings (some of which did not yet exist when he wrote to Timothy, and none of which had yet been selected for inclusion in the compilation we now know as the NT).

 

[Johann]

Point taken. I should mention that I believe all scripture -- OT and NT -- to be inspired and useful for all of the things Paul mentions to Timothy in 2 Tim. 3:16. My sole point is that I don't think Paul intended his use of graphē in that verse to refer to NT writings (some of which did not yet exist when he wrote to Timothy, and none of which had yet been selected for inclusion in the compilation we now know as the NT).

Verse 15:

"Sacred writings" refers to the Old Testament scriptures, as Timothy was taught these from childhood (likely by his Jewish mother and grandmother, see 2 Timothy 1:5).
At the time Paul wrote this letter, the New Testament canon was not yet fully established or recognized as a formal set of writings.
Verse 16:

"All scripture" (πᾶσα γραφὴ, pasa graphē) traditionally referred to the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament) since these were the recognized and authoritative writings for Jews and early Christians at that time.
However, by the time Paul wrote this, some New Testament writings (like Paul’s own letters) were already being circulated and considered authoritative (e.g., 2 Peter 3:15-16 where Peter refers to Paul's letters as scripture). This hints that the concept of "scripture" could have started expanding to include these new Christian writings.

This should steelman your case brother.
J.

 

[Keiw]

And what about before then? What was he then?

The firstborn of all creation= created first and last direct, all other things created through him and for him.

 

[Keiw]

I agree Keiw: One cannot always believe words from others. Who are the "others" you believe? And why do your men's teachings (Donald) trump the teachings of Tertullian?

"Considering the possibility of God being a trinity"? confused He wasn't considering the possibility; he flat out said it in his writings when he used the word "Trinity".

I can't take you serious anymore when you can't even be serious about known FACTS.

Mary

No trinity was served in the 2nd century=100% fact. It was created in 381 ce at the council of Constantinople= recorded history fact.

 

[Keiw]

One cannot always believe words from others. Whose words are you relying on Keiw to call someone else wrong?

Col 1:15--Gods words.

 

[Keiw]

Paul was talking about those who are not worthy of receiving the Lord in the Eucharist because of their sins.

1 Cor. 11:27-29
So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. EVERYONE ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

Just as the Manna was available to ALL of the Israelites who followed the Lord’s prescription - the Eucharist is available to EVERYONE in the congregation, provided they have examined themselves (confessed).

unworthy manner= not of the little flock who will sit on thrones. Only those of the little flock were present at the Lords evening meal.

 

[RedFan]

The firstborn of all creation= created first and last direct, all other things created through him and for him.

I see Col. 1:15-16 differently. I view "firstborn of all creation" as a declaration of primacy over creation rather than a statement about the Son itself being created. "Firstborn" (πρωτότοκος) is used again two verses later in Col. 1:18. where the Son is referred to as "firstborn of the dead." Both usages of the word appear to me to be primacy declarations, not declarations of inception.