It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[Spiritual Israelite]

We’ll just keep on listening out for that trumpet. You for some reason can’t see spiritual things.

LOL. Yep, I laughed at one of your posts again. I can't help it. Your doctrine is completely ludicrous as are your comments.

 

[IndianaRob]

LOL. Yep, I laughed at one of your posts again. I can't help it. Your doctrine is completely ludicrous as are your comments.

You do realize that the Jews missed Jesus because they could see the spiritual things Jesus was taking about… think about it.

 

[IndianaRob]

I never said the Holy Spirit brings harm! Nor did I confuse Him with the four angels.

You’re right my bad.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This is wrong on several fronts.
1) Rev 14 is not the white horse coming.
Impossible. Totally different.

Why is that? How are they totally different? Just because one passage regarding the second coming doesn't have all the same details as another passage about the second coming doesn't mean they can't be about the same event. That's not the way to interpret scripture. There are parallels or recapitulations in the book of Revelation that show the same event from different angles.

Revelation 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

These are describing the same event. He isn't going to tread the winepress of the wrath of God more than once.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You do realize that the Jews missed Jesus because they could see the spiritual things Jesus was taking about… think about it.

Of course I know that. What does that have to do with the fact that scripture says all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies at the same time when the last trumpet sounds?

 

[The Light]

The verse doesn’t say that these are dead people, it says they “were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb”.

These would be the first Jewish people to enter the kingdom of heaven on earth…. This kingdom of heaven.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The kingdom of God is within you. That is not heaven above. The 144,000 first fruits are redeemed from the earth and are before the throne.

Revelation 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

 

[IndianaRob]

Of course I know that. What does that have to do with the fact that scripture says all believers will be changed to have immortal bodies at the same time when the last trumpet sounds?

If your talking about 1 Corinthians 15 then show me where it says anything about an immortal body.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 

[The Light]

All who died in faith will receive new resurrected physical body when the last trumpet sounds.

All that are in the dust of the earth when that last trumpet sounds will be resurrected with new bodies.

All that are raised before that will also receive new bodies. In Daniel 12 for instance, we see that MANY that sleep in the earth shall be raised. This is of the people of Daniel that are believers. This will occur at the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal before the wrath of God.

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

 

[WPM]

Op Note

I have let this thread flow without presenting an Op Note, waiting for a Pretribber to address the Op, but alas nothing. There has not been one punch laid upon it. I take that as an admission that it is biblically water-tight.

There has been a lot of skirting around the obvious. There has been a lot of erroneous extra-biblical theories. But not one single challenge to the Op. That is because we are looking at biblical truth. One cannot fight with that.

 

[IndianaRob]

Op Note

I have let this thread flow without presenting an Op Note, waiting for a Pretribber to address the Op, but alas nothing. There has not been one punch laid upon it. I take that as an admission that it is biblically water-tight.

There has been a lot of skirting around the obvious. There has been a lot of erroneous extra-biblical theories. But not one single challenge to the Op. That is because we are looking at biblical truth. One cannot fight with that.

They can’t prove pre-trib anymore than someone can prove post or mid trib because there is no such thing as “the rapture”.

“The rapture” verses are about the translation of Gods people from this world to the next world when the Lord comes for each of us individually when it’s time to leave this world and go to heaven.

 

[David in NJ]

The Bible says the dead in christ rise first.
You saying the Bible is wrong?

pre-fibbers are claiming the rapture is BEFORE the resurrection

Are you in agreement with them?

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

AFTER that, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you AGREE with the words of the LORD???​

 

[David in NJ]

I didn't realize this was such a contested issue till now.

I would hope we don't suffer the great tribulation.
However, I can't agree a pretribulation rapture of the church of God isn't possible.

God's will is done on earth as it is in Heaven.

I wouldn't dare say there is something he would never do at the end of this world.

He is merciful after all. What better opportunity to show mercy than to free us from the Beast and its agenda.

However, I can't agree a pretribulation rapture of the church of God isn't possible.

Search the Scriptures and see if you can find a single verse that proclaims:

a.) JESUS saying: i will rapture my (any of the following) church/bride/saints/elect BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation.

b.) an Apostle(s) saying: rapture (any of the following) church/bride/saints/elect BEFORE the Abomination of Desolation.

c.) JESUS or the Apostles saying: the rapture occurs BEFORE His Coming and the Resurrection

d.) OT prophecy saying any of the above statements!

Pre-Wrath Deliverance of the Saints/Church/Elect is 100% Bible TRUTH = from God's Mouth to your ears = 1 Thess 1:10, 5:9

pre-trib is a complete LIE from men who subvert the Truth with pre-trib rapture = 'doctorate of divinity'

 

[David in NJ]

I didn't realize this was such a contested issue till now.

I would hope we don't suffer the great tribulation.
However, I can't agree a pretribulation rapture of the church of God isn't possible.

God's will is done on earth as it is in Heaven.

I wouldn't dare say there is something he would never do at the end of this world.

He is merciful after all. What better opportunity to show mercy than to free us from the Beast and its agenda.

God's will is done on earth as it is in Heaven.

ABSOLUTELY

God's Will is found in the Gospel and "every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God"(Matt 4:4)

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If your talking about 1 Corinthians 15 then show me where it says anything about an immortal body.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Did you not read the preceding verses where Paul talks about the body? That establishes the context of those verses.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

So, look at what Paul was saying before he started talking about being changed and putting on incorruption and immortality. Can you see in verse 42 where Paul refers to the resurrection of the dead and says "It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption". We know he's talking about the body there because in verse 44 he said "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body". He said the natural body we have now, which he said is "sown in corruption" , "sown in dishonour" and "sown in weakness", will be "raised in corruption", "raised in glory" and "raised in power". And he called the natural body "earthy" and the spiritual body we'll have in the future "heavenly". So, when he talks about us all being changed at the last trumpet and putting on incorruption and immortality, it should be obvious that he's talking about bodies that are "sown in corruption" and "raised in incorruption".

 

[The Light]

This is wrong on several fronts.
1) Rev 14 is not the white horse coming.
Impossible. Totally different.

What did I say that makes you think that I said that the coming of Jesus in Revelation 14 is the coming of white horses?

I don't think that, so I am not wrong there. But I would like to understand what leads you to the conclusion that I said that.

2) it is the Jewish harvest.
144k firstfruit JEWS. This is the regrafting of romans 11.
At that point Jesus is depicted sitting on a cloud holding a sickle in Revelation and verse 14 and he is gathering the main body of Jewish people. This is the Great Harvest or you can say the Fruit Harvest which is different than the barley and the wheat Harvest barley and the wheat is Gentile we see it with Ruth Ruth is associated with the grain Harvest that's the Gentile Church. Note that Naomi is in no way in that Harvest she's only there indirectly

I know it's the Jewish harvest. They are singing the song of Moses.

The white horse coming is after what you call the wrath, which is actually the last part of the 7 yr great tribulation.

No. The coming on white horses occurs after the 6th trumpet and after the 6th vial. Both the trumpets and vials occur in the 7th seal.

The great tribulation is OVER at the 6th seal. Jesus comes at the 6th seal. There is a harvest at the 6th seal. It is seen in Revelation 14 and Matthew 24. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.

And that white horse coming is after the Wrath.

It is not after wrath. It is at the end of wrath. Wrath is the trumpets and vials of the 7th seal.

It is at the 6th trumpet when the way is prepared for the kings of the east. It also occurs at the 6th vial. Both are the same timeframe.

Rev 19 backs up everything I am saying.
Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle is in no way Jesus coming on a white horse accompanied by millions or even billions of white horses blackening the sky that is night and day different

I know. What leads you to believe that I think that the Revelation 14 coming on a cloud which occurs at the 6th seal is the coming on white horses....Rev 19 for Armageddon?

 

[The Light]

Agreed, but the 144,000 aren’t dead, they’ve been redeem. In other words their sins had been forgiven.

They are dead. They are redeemed FROM the earth and are before throne and are first fruits of a harvest.

 

[The Light]

Rev 15 starts with wrath poured out but is in no way the second coming at the end of the 7yr gt.
Explain all this;
Rev16
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

This is all happening well into the wrath part of the 7 yr gt.
Placing the second coming at the end of the 7 yr gt.

I certainly can explain it all, but you need to understand what you are reading.

The seals are in order. 1 thru 7

The 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.
The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24.
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24

Let's prove that. Just simple logic. By looking at Matthew 24 we see the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall heaven. The exact same thing happens at the 6th seal. That is a timestamp. With this timestamp we can conclude that the things that happen at the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal.

Not only can we see that Jesus comes we can see that the tribulation of those days is over. We can also see at the 6th seal wrath begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Conlusion:
Jesus comes at the 6th seal, This is the second coming. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect.
The Great Tribulation is over.
The wrath of God begins.

I will finish on another post.

 

[Keraz]

Jesus comes at the 6th seal, This is the second coming.

This wrong belief is proved to be in error, by the other Prophesies about the great and terrible Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath, The Lord will not be seen of that Day: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:4, +

In Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians, he prophesies about two separate appearances of Jesus.
First, His coming in 'blazing fire', when He will reveal Himself only to His righteous people. He destroys the nations and entities who 'conspire to attack Israel', in fulfilment of Psalm 83, Revelation 6:12-17 and many other prophecies.
His righteous Christian peoples will go to live in the holy Land. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26
Then, some years after that devastating and shocking event, the Anti-Christ will come to power and 'enthrone himself in the Temple', this commences the Great Tribulation and 1260 days later, Jesus Returns to live once again on earth and reign as King over the world.

 

[David in NJ]

I certainly can explain it all, but you need to understand what you are reading.

The seals are in order. 1 thru 7

The 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.
The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24.
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24

Let's prove that. Just simple logic. By looking at Matthew 24 we see the sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall heaven. The exact same thing happens at the 6th seal. That is a timestamp. With this timestamp we can conclude that the things that happen at the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal.

Not only can we see that Jesus comes we can see that the tribulation of those days is over. We can also see at the 6th seal wrath begins.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.


17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Conlusion:
Jesus comes at the 6th seal, This is the second coming. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect.
The Great Tribulation is over.
The wrath of God begins.

I will finish on another post.

Now you are on the STRAIGHT and NARROW PATH which leads to LIFE

DO NOT deviate to the left or the right = STAY on the PATH of TRUTH

 

[Douggg]

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Conlusion:
Jesus comes at the 6th seal, This is the second coming. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect.
The Great Tribulation is over.

Close, but not exactly.

Close - because the sixth seal event precedes Jesus's coming down to earth - by 45 days.

The sixth seal event is first part of Matthew 24:30 - i.e. the sign of the Son of man appearing in heaven.

Matthew 24:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [Revelation 6:12-14]

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: [Revelation 6:15-17]

and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [Revelation 19:11-21]