It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[David in NJ]

Why, thank you.
I think Matthew 24 will suffice to encapsulate my view.

Peace and Blessing in the Glorious Name of our LORD & Savior Jesus Christ to you @Psalm 139

BELIEVE every word spoken in Matthew chapter 24

Do not ADD a single word to it nor take away a single word from it.

Proverbs 30:5-6 = Let this be your heart, your love and your fear of God, for in it you will be SAFE

 

[The Light]

You're missing the parallels in the book of Revelation. There is no reason to think that the wrath of the Lamb will take a whole year to complete. The 7th seal does not contain the 7 trumpets like you believe and the 7 vials don't all follow the 7th trumpet like you believe.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

So, you expect us to believe that the vengeance Jesus will take "on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" will take a whole year. Why would that be the case? It makes no sense. Especially in light of what Paul said here:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

Jesus is coming unexpectedly as a thief in the night and will then bring "sudden destruction" down on His enemies from which "they shall not escape". There's nothing sudden about your understanding of His wrath. If it takes a whole year for His wrath to come down, there's nothing sudden about that.

I'm done for the night, at least until late. I want to rehash this with you.

 

[David in NJ]

I'm done for the night, at least until late. I want to rehash this with you.

Good Night Brother

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We’ve already discussed this on another thread and you did the same thing in that you’re doing here.

BARE GRAIN is not the body, BARE GRAIN is the soul.

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the soul) is sown in corruption (the body); it is raised in incorruption:

But you prefer:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the body) is sown in corruption (the body); it is raised in incorruption:

You ignore the context of that verse. Souls don't need to be resurrected. That's ridiculous. Our souls don't die, our bodies do.

Follow what Paul is saying carefully here. Don't try to interpret verse 42 in isolation, which is unwise.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

What is it that is sown in corruption? The same thing that is sown in dishonor and sown in weakness. The natural BODY. This couldn't be more obvious. Why do you not use verses 43 and 44 to help you understand verse 42? The natural BODY is sown in corruption, sown in dishonor and sown in weakness. It is raised/resurrected in incorruption, glory and power as a spiritual BODY. Very simple.

 

[IndianaRob]

You ignore the context of that verse. Souls don't need to be resurrected. That's ridiculous. Our souls don't die, our bodies do.

Follow what Paul is saying carefully here. Don't try to interpret verse 42 in isolation, which is unwise.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

What is it that is sown in corruption? The same thing that is sown in dishonor and sown in weakness. The natural BODY. This couldn't be more obvious. Why do you not use verses 43 and 44 to help you understand verse 42? The natural body is sown in corruption, sown in dishonor and sown in weakness. It is raised/resurrected in incorruption, glory and power as a spiritual BODY. Very simple.

Deny it all you want but if you think our soul is not dead in sins and trespasses and needs to be raised to eternal life in Christ then I can’t help you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Deny it all you want but if you think our soul is not dead in sins and trespasses and needs to be raised to eternal life in Christ then I can’t help you.

I didn't say that, but that does not mean our soul is literally dead and lifeless in the same way our bodies are literally dead and lifeless when we physically die. That's a false equivalence. And the context of 1 Cor 15 is very clearly about the body and not the soul. You can deny that all you want, but it couldn't be more obvious, as verses 42 to 44 make clear. Paul referred to the body we have now as a natural body. It is sown a natural body, sown in corruption, sown in dishonor and sown in weakness. It is resurrected as a spiritual body in incorruption, glory and power. That is what Paul clearly taught. If you deny that, then I believe you are just making that text say what you want it to say.

You noticeably did not address anything I said in my post. You did not address how I specifically showed the context of what Paul was saying in verse 42 by showing what he said in verses 43 and 44. Why is that? Is it because you know you can't refute what I said? I don't know why else you didn't specifically address what I said. Why don't you break the verse down like I did and show how it can possibly be referring to the soul when you look at the surrounding context of the verse?

 

[IndianaRob]

I didn't say that, but that does not mean our soul is literally dead and lifeless in the same way our bodies are literally dead and lifeless when we physically die. That's a false equivalence. And the context of 1 Cor 15 is very clearly about the body and not the soul. You can deny that all you want, but it couldn't be more obvious, as verses 42 to 44 make clear. Paul referred to the body we have now as a natural body. It is sown a natural body, sown in corruption, sown in dishonor and sown in weakness. It is resurrected as a spiritual body in incorruption, glory and power. That is what Paul clearly taught. If you deny that, then I believe you are just making that text say what you want it to say.

The resurrection has absolutely nothing to do with anything literally dead and these very verses SHOULD correct your grevious error but as usual you twist any verse that don’t line up with your made up version of what the Bible says.

You are in serious error by denying what is plainly written.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The resurrection has absolutely nothing to do with anything literally dead and these very verses SHOULD correct your grevious error but as usual you twist any verse that don’t line up with your made up version of what the Bible says.

You are in serious error by denying what is plainly written.

You're all talk. You're not looking at 1 Cor 15:42 in context. I invite you to do so and you don't bother. That says it all. The context of 1 Cor 15:42 is seen in verses 43 and 44. Why would you deny that? Paul said that what is sown in incorruption, dishonor and weakness is a natural body. You try to say it's the soul that is sown in incorruption instead, thereby taking Paul completely out of context. You are the one denying what is plainly written.

 

[IndianaRob]

You're all talk. You're not looking at 1 Cor 15:42 in context. I invite you to do so and you don't bother. That says it all. The context of 1 Cor 15:42 is seen in verses 43 and 44. Why would you deny that? Paul said that what is sown in incorruption, dishonor and weakness is a natural body. You try to say it's the soul that is sown in incorruption instead, thereby taking Paul completely out of context. You are the one denying what is plainly written.

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

What is the bare grain in verse 37?
What is the body the bare grain is given in verse 38?

 

[David in NJ]

1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

What is the bare grain in verse 37?
What is the body the bare grain is given in verse 38?

Paul is using that which is natural(grain), that which EVERYONE knows and can instantly relate to EXACTLY what Paul is talking about.

How is it you are not able to do the same???

Why the resistance?

 

[IndianaRob]

Paul is using that which is natural(grain), that which EVERYONE knows and can instantly relate to EXACTLY what Paul is talking about.

How is it you are not able to do the same???

Why the resistance?

Oh I’m agreeing completely with Paul. Paul is using grain and the plant body the grain produces to illustrate what the resurrection is.

Bare grain gets planted in the earth and God gives that seed a plant body.

If the soil conditions are right, that plant will produce a NEW SEED and when that first plant body dies the NEW SEED will be given a NEW PLANT BODY.

 

[David in NJ]

Oh I’m agreeing completely with Paul. Paul is using grain and the plant body the grain produces to illustrate what the resurrection is.

Bare grain gets planted in the earth and God gives that seed a plant body.

If the soil conditions are right, that plant will produce a NEW SEED and when that first plant body dies the NEW SEED will be given a NEW PLANT BODY.

GREAT

Now, just as the "bare grain" must go into the ground in order to 'resurrect' into new life, so also does our physical bodies go into the ground upon death.

Just as the Lord Jesus Christ suffered death on the Cross for the sins of the world and thru His Resurrection and Ascension we are promised
by the Lord, that when He Returns(Second Coming) we also shall be resurrected(if our bodies have died) from mortality to IMMORTALITY.

 

[IndianaRob]

GREAT

Now, just as the "bare grain" must go into the ground in order to 'resurrect' into new life, so also does our physical bodies go into the ground upon death.

Just as the Lord Jesus Christ suffered death on the Cross for the sins of the world and thru His Resurrection and Ascension we are promised
by the Lord, that when He Returns(Second Coming) we also shall be resurrected(if our bodies have died) from mortality to IMMORTALITY.

No that’s not what Paul said and I don’t know why you guys have this obsession with dead earthly bodies.

We are not our human bodies, we are souls placed into a body to experience life in this realm. When our souls are done here on this earth God takes our souls out this human body and puts us in our heavenly bodies because we are going to HEAVEN.

Paul is going above and beyond in 1 Corinthians 15 to prove that the resurrection has nothing to do with dead earthly bodies.

This is exactly why Hymenaeus and Philetus were admonished. They saw the dead EARTHLY bodies raised and just like you guys, they thought the resurrection was the raising of dead earthly bodies so they thought the resurrection was over and done with.

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;


2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

[David in NJ]

No that’s not what Paul said and I don’t know why you guys have this obsession with dead earthly bodies.

We are not our human bodies, we are souls placed into a body to experience life in this realm. When our souls are done here on this earth God takes our souls out this human body and puts us in our heavenly bodies because we are going to HEAVEN.

Paul is going above and beyond in 1 Corinthians 15 to prove that the resurrection has nothing to do with dead earthly bodies.


2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;


2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

We are not our human bodies, we are souls placed into a body to experience life in this realm. When our souls are done here on this earth God takes our souls out this human body and puts us in our heavenly bodies because we are going to HEAVEN.

100% TRUTH

This is exactly why Hymenaeus and Philetus were admonished. They saw the dead EARTHLY bodies raised and just like you guys, they thought the resurrection was the raising of dead earthly bodies so they thought the resurrection was over and done with.

Nope - you missing the Center of Truth here!

2Ti 2:17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
2Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

This is 100% TRUTH against those who reject the Coming Resurrection!

DO NOT make the same mistake!!!

 

[David in NJ]

Good Night @IndianaRob

Lord willing, we shall talk again = BEFORE our bodies go to the grave!

 

[rebuilder 454]

Now let's look at Rev 6 thru Rev 11. You need to understand what you are reading.

As I said, the seals happen in order 1 thru 7.
Revelation 6 contains the 1st 6 seals; the great tribulation is the 5th seal and Jesus comes at the 6th seal.........immediately after the tribulation
Then the 7th seal is opened, and the wrath of God begins. Then we go through the trumpets of wrath.
Jesus returns for Armageddon and then sets up His kingdom on earth

So after reading Revelation 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11. You have the complete story. Armageddon is over and Christ Has set up His millennial kingdom on earth at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

The story is over. We are in the millennial kingdom in Revelation 11.

You can throw away Revelation 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16. You don't need them. You already have the story.

Do you want some more information about the story you already have? Then read Revelation 12. It begins before the story you already have and takes you to the point of great tribulation when the dragon goes after the seed of the woman because he can't get to the woman.

Do you want some more information about the story you already have? Read Revelation 13 and 14. These events happen during the 1st 6 seals, which is the time of the tribulation. Here is the great tribulation which is the 5th seal.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Here is the coming of Jesus which is the 6th seal
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

Do you want more information about what is happening in Revelation 7 and those that come out of great tribulation. Read Revelation 15

Do you want more information about the 7th seal wrath of God. Read Revelation 16.

You get two views of the same story.

Revelation 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11, tell you the story.

Revelation 13, 14, 15, and 16 gives you more information of what occurs in that story.

Rev 12 gives you a little more information.

Rev 14 in no way is the coming of Jesus. It is the gathering of the Jews to heaven.
It is The covenant Jews grafted back in through Jesus.

I think you need to understand what you're reading and Revelation 19. It says after these things. It says after the things that have been described in the Wrath starting in Revelation 15 on through Revelation 18.

Rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

The 2 ND coming is on white horses. Nobody on TV Cas wiggle out of it.
The white horse coming is to destroy the army of Satan and the AC, and to set up the millennial reign.
There is no 2nd Coming before the wrath is poured out.

Note that you have now gained the praise of postribbers.

 

[WPM]

Rev 14 in no way is the coming of Jesus. It is the gathering of the Jews to heaven.
It is The covenant Jews grafted back in through Jesus.

I think you need to understand what you're reading and Revelation 19. It says after these things. It says after the things that have been described in the Wrath starting in Revelation 15 on through Revelation 18.

Rev 19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

The 2 ND coming is on white horses. Nobody on TV Cas wiggle out of it.
The white horse coming is to destroy the army of Satan and the AC, and to set up the millennial reign.
There is no 2nd Coming before the wrath is poured out.

Note that you have now gained the praise of postribbers.

You guys are all over the place. You do not know what you believe.

 

[rebuilder 454]

It's ok if we don't agree. Most of pretrib TV world would agree with you. They think that tribulation and wrath are the same thing.

They are not. The Great Tribulation of those days is what the Dragon will bring on believers if they don't take the mark. Wrath is the Day of the Lord, the one year day of His wrath. It is the 7th seal.

Just read the scriptures. We have a timestamp with the signs of the sun, moon and stars. We can determine that Jesus comes at the 6th seal. We can determine that the tribulation is over. And we can tell that the wrath of God is about to begin.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

I Do not have a TV in my house.
So your little analogy most likely applies to yourself.
I have been in this end times study for over 40 years.
It is I that brought " before the flood" of mat 24 to the table as well as the virgin parable and Rev 14, the gathering of the Jews.
I never heard anyone else bring any of that to the table before I did around 10 years ago.
I am one of the few that views end times through PURPOSE.
MANY including yourself do not know the purpose of the Gt.
So any point of TV as my source is ludicrous and stupid.
And no I do not think trib and wrath are the same thing.
I AM SAYING that IN the 7 year gt , the last part is the wrath.
But it is still the 7 yr gt.
Which is WHERE YOU ER.
because you erroneously place the gathering of Lot and Noah Into 2 separate events.
They are not, and Jesus even used them BOTH TO ILLUSTRATE ONE EVENT.
So you definately have that COMPLETELY FOULED UP.

Thus is a red flag, because you need that dynamic changed

....and it is over not recognizing the GT is 7 years. With the white horses 2 coming at the end of those 7 years, as to why you are NOT UNDERSTANDING what you are reading.
Hello..changing Noah and Lot examples by Jesus....just for starters.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You guys are all over the place. You do not know what you believe.

Pot <> kettle Jr.
Either debate or go pester someone else.

 

[IndianaRob]

GREAT

Now, just as the "bare grain" must go into the ground in order to 'resurrect' into new life, so also does our physical bodies go into the ground upon death.

Just as the Lord Jesus Christ suffered death on the Cross for the sins of the world and thru His Resurrection and Ascension we are promised
by the Lord, that when He Returns(Second Coming) we also shall be resurrected(if our bodies have died) from mortality to IMMORTALITY.

So basically what your saying here is Paul got the seed analogy wrong and he should’ve used a potted plant analogy.

Put the patted plant (the body) in the ground and then when the potted plant dies its resurrected as a brand new plant.

That’s not what Paul said and that’s not the point Paul was making using the seed analogy.