It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[The Light]

@rwb may be right in saying they were the Old Testament dead in Christ but I tend to think the 144,000 were the first to enter the kingdom of heaven that Jesus brought in when he came.

Whoever dies in the Lord go to heaven when they die. But they do not have their new bodies. The first that get their new bodies will be the dead in Christ as they will rise first.

 

[The Light]

There is a lack of understanding the difference between being firstfruits of the Spirit and the physical resurrection when Christ comes again, the harvest at the end of days.

The great multitude will have their new bodies after the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

 

[IndianaRob]

Whoever dies in the Lord go to heaven when they die. But they do not have their new bodies. The first that get their new bodies will be the dead in Christ as they will rise first.

The verse doesn’t say that these are dead people, it says they “were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb”.

These would be the first Jewish people to enter the kingdom of heaven on earth…. This kingdom of heaven.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

 

[rwb]

It could be but it could also be the 144,000 that we’re sealed in Revelation 7. They heard the voice of Jesus before those that were under the alter.

The firstfruits of the Spirit are the 144,000 sealed by the Spirit of life. They could not ascend to heaven with Christ without first being sealed by the Spirit. They were faithful unto death and waited in the place the Old Covenant called the bosom of Abraham. This is akin to being under the altar. IOW under the blood of Christ according to Covenant promise. It is the spirit in man that gives us physical life, and it is the Spirit from Christ that gives us spiritual life. After being sealed we see them again in Rev 14 that depicts them "having his Father's name written in their foreheads." IOW after being sealed they were identified as belonging to the Father in heaven. That's why they are seen with the Lamb on heavenly Mt Zion, a spiritual body there being firstfruits of the Spirit.

 

[rwb]

The great multitude will have their new bodies after the harvest that occurs at the 6th seal.

All who died in faith will receive new resurrected physical body when the last trumpet sounds.

 

[rwb]

The verse doesn’t say that these are dead people, it says they “were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb”.

These would be the first Jewish people to enter the kingdom of heaven on earth…. This kingdom of heaven.

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Firstfruits of the Spirit. Salvation came first to the Jew. So the Jews of faith were those who received the Spirit of Christ in life when they are born again. And before Christ came the Old Covenant faithful Jews are also firstfruits of the Spirit after Christ defeated death and they were sealed by the Spirit and through Him ascended to heaven a spiritual body.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth in Revelation 14 is the second coming, when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. This is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal, which is the coming of Jesus seen in Matthew 24, seen here.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Note that the tribulation is OVER. That is the great tribulation. Note that the unbelievers are cast into the wrath of God.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Tribulation is not wrath. Tribulation is over at the 6th seal. The seventh seal is the wrath of God which contains the trumpets and vials.

This is wrong on several fronts.
1) Rev 14 is not the white horse coming.
Impossible. Totally different.
2) it is the Jewish harvest.
144k firstfruit JEWS. This is the regrafting of romans 11.
At that point Jesus is depicted sitting on a cloud holding a sickle in Revelation and verse 14 and he is gathering the main body of Jewish people. This is the Great Harvest or you can say the Fruit Harvest which is different than the barley and the wheat Harvest barley and the wheat is Gentile we see it with Ruth Ruth is associated with the grain Harvest that's the Gentile Church. Note that Naomi is in no way in that Harvest she's only there indirectly

The white horse coming is after what you call the wrath, which is actually the last part of the 7 yr great tribulation. And that white horse coming is after the Wrath.

Rev 19 backs up everything I am saying.
Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle is in no way Jesus coming on a white horse accompanied by millions or even billions of white horses blackening the sky that is night and day different

 

[IndianaRob]

The firstfruits of the Spirit are the 144,000 sealed by the Spirit of life. They could not ascend to heaven with Christ without first being sealed by the Spirit. They were faithful unto death and waited in the place the Old Covenant called the bosom of Abraham. This is akin to being under the altar. IOW under the blood of Christ according to Covenant promise. It is the spirit in man that gives us physical life, and it is the Spirit from Christ that gives us spiritual life. After being sealed we see them again in Rev 14 that depicts them "having his Father's name written in their foreheads." IOW after being sealed they were identified as belonging to the Father in heaven. That's why they are seen with the Lamb on heavenly Mt Zion, a spiritual body there being firstfruits of the Spirit.

The 144,000 sealed in Revelation 7 were people that were alive and were sealed to be protected from the wrath of God.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What do you mean by "they are the first fruit Jewish Gathering"?

The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation several times ,are specifically declared first fruits. First fruits is the first part of the Harvest.
it is a small section of the main Harvest, and is gathered first. ( and of course the 144k Jews are gathered first rev 14 :1-4), ahead of the main Jewish harvest of rev14:14)
The main Harvest always follows first fruits. It is interesting the many times that the Gathering of people is compared to harvest. We see it over and over in the entire Bible.

 

[IndianaRob]

Firstfruits of the Spirit. Salvation came first to the Jew. So the Jews of faith were those who received the Spirit of Christ in life when they are born again. And before Christ came the Old Covenant faithful Jews are also firstfruits of the Spirit after Christ defeated death and they were sealed by the Spirit and through Him ascended to heaven a spiritual body.

There was no redemption before the cross right? The first to be redeemed on the earth were those where Jesus said (me paraphrasing) “thy sins are forgiven, go and sin no more”.

 

[IndianaRob]

The 144,000 mentioned in Revelation several times ,are specifically declared first fruits. First fruits is the first part of the Harvest.
it is a small section of the main Harvest, and is gathered first. ( and of course the 144k Jews are gathered first rev 14 :1-4), ahead of the main Jewish harvest of rev14:14)
The main Harvest always follows first fruits. It is interesting the many times that the Gathering of people is compared to harvest. We see it over and over in the entire Bible.

Agreed, but the 144,000 aren’t dead, they’ve been redeem. In other words their sins had been forgiven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Any verses I refer to are immediately cast down and stomped, illustrating your heart and disrespect for God's word.

Nonsense. Anyone can just quote a verse. You need to show how it supports your view, but you never do that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

SEE, you admit to 5 raptures

Too bad you reject the words of Christ that there is only One Harvest at the End = Matt 13:37-43 & Matt 24:14

Another very sad thing is that you reject the Apostle Paul's CLEAR instruction of ONE Second Coming and place the rapture before the Resurrection which is the sin of the Serpent = twisting God's words.

But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Exactly. If people take offense to us making light of someone believing in 5 raptures, then it just shows they are way too oversensitive. It's an obviously ridiculous belief that deserves ridicule.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Firstfruits of the Spirit. Salvation came first to the Jew. So the Jews of faith were those who received the Spirit of Christ in life when they are born again. And before Christ came the Old Covenant faithful Jews are also firstfruits of the Spirit after Christ defeated death and they were sealed by the Spirit and through Him ascended to heaven a spiritual body.

No
SPECIFICALLY NUMBERED in TWO SEPARATE methods so as to debunk any attempt to merge them into something other than what is vividly depicted as a totally separate group.
Yes as we see in romans 11.
Time of Gentiles completed, and God now deals with the Jews in a separate harvest.
Without the understanding of the purpose of the trib, end times will never be unpacked.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Lol.
Just keep thinking harvest can not possibly be depicted in the Bible through harvest.
Just keep telling yourself that.
Firstfruits
Don't investigate any of that dimension.
Wow...even harvest needs modifying in your deal.
What a straight Jacket confine the Bible is to you guys.
No revelatory. Just mental denial of components that could help you and illuminate scripture.
Thrown off the table, then celebrate throwing out illumination.

More gibberish. You have nothing else to offer.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Your model, if it is postrib rapture, has ZERO COMMERCE for believers, and NO NORMAL LIFE.
So keep refraiming that item.
That is the only way to wiggle out of what is written.
Either change it or omit it.
It does SEVERE HARM to your deal...and anyone honestly in study of the word would not do what you are doing.

You're not even able to communicate like a normal human being. Do you expect to be taken seriously when you post like this? I hope not.

 

[rebuilder 454]

More gibberish. You have nothing else to offer.

It is like you defend the notion of harvest as gibberish.

 

[Psalm 139]

I didn't realize this was such a contested issue till now.

I would hope we don't suffer the great tribulation.
However, I can't agree a pretribulation rapture of the church of God isn't possible.

God's will is done on earth as it is in Heaven.

I wouldn't dare say there is something he would never do at the end of this world.

He is merciful after all. What better opportunity to show mercy than to free us from the Beast and its agenda.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You're not even able to communicate like a normal human being. Do you expect to be taken seriously when you post like this? I hope not.

Sad your bad attitude.
So hateful
I feel for you.

 

[rwb]

The 144,000 sealed in Revelation 7 were people that were alive and were sealed to be protected from the wrath of God.

Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

These verses are telling us that the WIND was held back from the four winds of the earth, which is symbolic of the Spirit being sent unto all the earth to be in those of faith. Before the four angels (symbolizing universality) would be released to bring harm unto all the earth the WIND (Spirit) must first be sent to seal faithful saints after Pentecost, before they died and Jews who died in faith waiting for Christ to come. Before the Gospel of the Kingdom of God through in the power of the Holy Spirit is sent out unto all nations of the earth, these firstfruits of the Spirit must first also be sealed.

Revelation 9:14 (KJV) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
Revelation 9:15 (KJV) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Revelation 7:1-3 (KJV) And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

After the 144,000 sealed, John speaks of a great multitude that would be the full embodiment of all the saints in heaven, of which the 144,000 are included. They are they which came out of great tribulation of all nations, kindred, and people, and tongues. This is the fullness of the spiritual body of Christ in heaven after the Gospel of the Kingdom of God has been sent unto all the earth.

Revelation 7:9-10 (KJV) After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Revelation 7:13-14 (KJV) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.