It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[The Light]

My understanding is, there is no way in a million years that any of the vials of wrath can be taking place outside of the day of the Lord. And since the 4th vial, for one, proves the 2nd coming hasn't happened yet, though you misrepresented what I said about that, it then makes me wonder at times if you actually understand what you are reading?

He doesn't.

After all, I did say that the 2nd coming doesn't happen until the time of the 7th vial, yet you insisted that I am insisting the 2nd coming already took place before the 4th vial, therefore, clearly misrepresenting what I said, therefore, contradicting what I said. Purposesly or not, I guess only you and God knows the answer to that.

Actually, the second coming occurs at the 6th seal, when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and all return to heaven

The DOTL is after tribulation.

Exactly

The 7 vials of wrath involve the DOTL.

Exactly

The 2nd coming doesn't happen until sometime during the 7th vial.

The second coming occur at the 6th seal. Let's prove that.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

We can tell that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

Jesus goes to heaven with all the believers, that is why there is a great multitude in heaven. After the marriage supper of the Lamb, the armies of heaven go to earth where Jesus speaks the Word and then puts His feet on the mount of Olives. This is the second advent.

Therefore, I couldn't possibly be saying all 7 vials are poured out after He has returned first. What I am saying is, the DOTL is involving an era of time that also involves the 2nd coming, but not at the beginning of it, but at the ending of it since the 7th vial would be at the ending of it. Which might mean passages involving the DOTL are compressed, therefore, giving the impression that the moment the DOTL takes place is the moment Christ returns, when that doesn't appear to be the case when comparing to the the 7 vials of wrath. How can anyone possibly convincingly argue that some of the vials of wrath are not involving the DOTL, then expected to be taken serious?

There is a coming of Jesus for a harvest at the 6th seal......the second coming. Then there is a coming of Jesus at the 6th vial (6th tumpet) with the armies of heaven.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I missed the part where I said there was tribulation there.

Where is your changing water into wine in those verses?

In your doctrine you believe a period of tribulation (7 years? 1 year? Not sure.) that occurs between what is described in 1 Thess 4:14-17 and what is describe in 1 Thess 5:2-3. Why wouldn't Paul have mentioned that within a passage where he was giving details about the second coming of Christ? Did it slip his mind? He just skipped straight from the rapture to Christ's wrath without bothering to mention the time of tribulation in between that you believe will happen? Why? It seems like if he was ever going to write about that period of time, that would have been the time to do it.

 

[The Light]

This is one final event. This climactic day will catch the wicked unexpected and unprepared but the righteous waiting and ready. We are caught up before the wicked are destroyed with "sudden destruction" and 'none escape'.

There are no mortal wicked left to inhabit your imagery trib after the rapture.

Why do you not take Scripture literally?

The Day of the Lord lasts one year. The sudden destruction where He comes as a thief in the night is seen here.

Revelation 16
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

But He has already come for the Jewish believers at the 6th seal.

Revelation 15
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

They sing the song of Moses as they are Jews.

 

[The Light]

In your doctrine you believe a period of tribulation (7 years? 1 year? Not sure.)

No. I don't believe the great tribulation is 7 years long. I do believe the 70th week of Daniel is 7 years long.

occurs between what is described in 1 Thess 4:14-17 and what is describe in 1 Thess 5:2-3.

1 Thes 4 is talking about the Church being raptured. 1 Thes 5 is talking about the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Why wouldn't Paul have mentioned that within a passage where he was giving details about the second coming of Christ? Did it slip his mind? He just skipped straight from the rapture to Christ's wrath without bothering to mention the time of tribulation in between that you believe will happen? Why? It seems like if he was ever going to write about that period of time, that would have been the time to do it.

Paul was pretty clear if you understand what you are reading. He says that the dead in Christ rise first. He says Christ will return for the alive that remain when the Lord Himself comes

Then Paul says....... but of the times and seasons there is no need that I write to you. Then He talks about the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs before the day of the Lord. This is talked about in Matthew 24 and 1 Corinthians 15 where the Lord sends His angels at the last trump, which is blown of the Feast of Trumpets.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My understanding is, there is no way in a million years that any of the vials of wrath can be taking place outside of the day of the Lord.

What is that understanding based on?

And since the 4th vial, for one, proves the 2nd coming hasn't happened yet, though you misrepresented what I said about that, it then makes me wonder at times if you actually understand what you are reading?

LOL! I understand what I'm reading in scripture just fine, but you are sometimes hard to follow. You are just bad at communicating clearly on forums like this, which you have admitted before. You said you are better at communicating verbally. So, don't try to act like you communicate your thoughts clearly on here and there's something wrong with me if I'm not understanding what you're saying.

It would be helpful for you to explain why you think the vials all have to be part of the day of the Lord. I showed how Paul indicated that the day of the Lord refers to the day Christ returns by showing how he called Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him "the day of the Lord" in 2 Thess 2:1-2. So, what is your basis for thinking that the day of the Lord begins even before the day Christ returns? If that's even what you believe. I'm assuming that you don't believe all seven vials of wrath occur on the day He returns, but I'm not sure, so please clarify your understanding of the vials in relation to the day Christ returns.

After all, I did say that the 2nd coming doesn't happen until the time of the 7th vial, yet you insisted that I am insisting the 2nd coming already took place before the 4th vial, therefore, clearly misrepresenting what I said, therefore, contradicting what I said. Purposesly or not, I guess only you and God knows the answer to that.

I NEVER purposely misrepresent what anyone says. That would be a LIE. Why would I lie on a Christian forum (or at any time)? That's ridiculous. I didn't catch that you said that. I was basing that on what you said about the 4th vial. My understanding is that the day of the Lord refers to the day Christ returns. So, you saying that the 4th vial occurs on the day of the Lord made me think you were saying it occurs on the day Christ returns. How can we possibly have a discussion about the day of the Lord that makes any sense when we don't even agree on what the day of the Lord is and entails? That makes it impossible. When people don't agree on the terms being used it makes discussions like this pointless and very confusing.

The DOTL is after tribulation.

Right. Jesus comes "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and the day He comes and we are gathered to Him is the day of the Lord (2 Thess 2:1-2).

The 7 vials of wrath involve the DOTL.

You keep saying this. What is this based on? The DOTL is the day Christ returns.

The 2nd coming doesn't happen until sometime during the 7th vial.

Right.

Therefore, I couldn't possibly be saying all 7 vials are poured out after He has returned first. What I am saying is, the DOTL is involving an era of time that also involves the 2nd coming, but not at the beginning of it, but at the ending of it since the 7th vial would be at the ending of it. Which might mean passages involving the DOTL are compressed, therefore, giving the impression that the moment the DOTL takes place is the moment Christ returns, when that doesn't appear to be the case when comparing to the the 7 vials of wrath. How can anyone possibly convincingly argue that some of the vials of wrath are not involving the DOTL, then expected to be taken serious?

LOL. Where is your evidence to show that all 7 vials of wrath are part of the DOTL? How can YOU be taken seriously when you just make claims like that without doing anything to back them up?

You know, it's interesting that within this thread that was created to refute pre-trib, you, as a post-trib, have not said anything against pre-trib in this entire thread (that I can recall) but you are here debating Amils instead.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. I don't believe the great tribulation is 7 years long. I do believe the 70th week of Daniel is 7 years long.

Obviously, I wasn't sure how long you think it is based on what I said. How long do you think it is then? And why did Paul not mention it anywhere within 1 Thess 4:14-5:3? Why does he not mention it anywhere in his writings at all? I would think if such a time period were going to happen he surely would have written about it somewhere and it would've made sense for him to write it about in 1 Thess 4-5 somewhere. But, he didn't.

1 Thes 4 is talking about the Church being raptured. 1 Thes 5 is talking about the gathering from heaven and earth.

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

You need to read 1 Thess 4:14-17 more carefully. Jesus talks about a gathering from both heaven and earth there.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Who will be with Jesus when He comes from heaven, as Paul alluded to here? He said it will be those "who have fallen asleep in him". We know that they will not have been resurrected yet when He initially descends from heaven, so it should be clear that what Paul was talking about there is the souls of the dead in Christ being gathered and brought with Jesus from heaven. After descending form heaven with Jesus, their bodies will be resurrected and changed to be immortal (1 Cor 15:50-54) and their souls will unite with their resurrected, changed bodies. They will then be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.

Paul was pretty clear if you understand what you are reading. He says that the dead in Christ rise first. He says Christ will return for the alive that remain when the Lord Himself comes

You are the one who doesn't understand what you are reading. I explained it above, so now you have the chance to learn something, if you would set aside your stubborn pride. Unless you believe in soul sleep, you shouldn't have any trouble understanding what I explained about how 1 Thess 4:14-17 should be understood and that it's the same event described in Mark 13:24-27 which occurs AFTER the tribulation.

 

[The Light]

Obviously, I wasn't sure how long you think it is based on what I said. How long do you think it is then? And why did Paul not mention it anywhere within 1 Thess 4:14-5:3? Why does he not mention it anywhere in his writings at all? I would think if such a time period were going to happen he surely would have written about it somewhere and it would've made sense for him to write it about in 1 Thess 4-5 somewhere. But, he didn't.

You need to read 1 Thess 4:14-17 more carefully. Jesus talks about a gathering from both heave nand earth there.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Who will be with Jesus when He comes from heaven, as Paul alluded to here? He said it will be those "who have fallen asleep in him". We know that they will not have been resurrected yet when He initially descends from heaven, so it should be clear that what Paul was talking about there is the souls of the dead in Christ being gathered and brought with Jesus from heaven. After descending form heaven with Jesus, their bodies will be resurrected and changed to be immortal (1 Cor 15:50-54) and their souls will unit with their resurrected, changed bodies. They will then be caught up together with those who are alive and remain to meet the Lord in the air.

The living do not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. The Lord returns for the alive that remain. He brings the dead with Him.

We see the exact same thing at the gathering from heaven and earth. The Lord comes to the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from the earth. He also sends His angels to gather the Church from heaven because where the carcase is, the eagles will be gathered.

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

You are the one who doesn't understand what you are reading. I explained it above, so now you have the chance to learn something, if you would set aside your stubborn pride.

What you said in your post is what I used to believe before I understood the harvests. So it is not a case of stubborn pride. It is a case of understanding what is written. Scripture repeatedly says that were the Lord is..........we will be also. That what happens after each harvest.

Unless you believe in soul sleep, you shouldn't have any trouble understanding what I explained about how 1 Thess 4:14-17 should be understood and that it's the same event described in Mark 13:24-27 which occurs AFTER the tribulation.

If you are looking for the event of Matthew 13:24-27 you need to look at 1 Cor 15

 

[The Light]

In my view, maybe not in your view, is basically where I place some of the following, meaning timeline-wise.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled---this is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast. This is the same era of time Revelation 20:4 is involving pertaining to these---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Meaning when they are martyred for the reasons listed, it is meaning during this same little season Revelation 6:11 is involving. Therefore, this little season per Revelation 6:11 can't possibly be meaning the same little season per Revelation 20:7-9. One reason why, Revelation 6:11 is meaning before the thousand years begin, Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning after the thousand years have ended. Obviously, you and I are not in agreement about that, but still that is how I view it even if you don't. I'm just trying to explain how I'm arriving at what I do, regardless whether I'm right or wrong.That aside then.

What leads you to believe that I don't agree that Rev 6:11 happens before the thousand years and Rev 20:7-9 happens after.

I full agree. However, I will say the 5th seal is the great tribulation.......as seen in Revelation 14

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is now involving the DOTL, which is also involving the same 7 last vials of wrath mentioned in Revelation 16. Clearly, during when Revelation 6:11 is meaning, none of that can be involving God's wrath at this point if it is not until the 6th seal that God's wrath begins.

Again. I agree.

The 5th seal is the great tribulation. That is over before the Day of the Lord begins

And once again, my position is that all 7 vials of wrath involve the DOTL, and that Christ doesn't return until sometime during the the 7th vial,

All trumpets also occur during the 7th seal day of the Lord.

and that Christ only returns 1 time, not multiple times.

He actually comes for the Church before the tribulation. He comes at the 6th seal, which is the second coming. He remains in the clouds and returns to heaven with the harvest. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal.

He also comes at Armageddon with the armies of heaven.

Which then has to mean that the beginning of the DOTL is not when Christ returns,

I can't agree with that because the signs of the sun, moon and stars MARK the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

 

[Davidpt]

What leads you to believe that I don't agree that Rev 6:11 happens before the thousand years and Rev 20:7-9 happens after.

I full agree. However, I will say the 5th seal is the great tribulation.......as seen in Revelation 14

Rev 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


Again. I agree.

The 5th seal is the great tribulation. That is over before the Day of the Lord begins


All trumpets also occur during the 7th seal day of the Lord.


He actually comes for the Church before the tribulation. He comes at the 6th seal, which is the second coming. He remains in the clouds and returns to heaven with the harvest. That is why there is a great multitude in heaven after the 6th seal.

He also comes at Armageddon with the armies of heaven.


I can't agree with that because the signs of the sun, moon and stars MARK the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

My bad. For some reason I thought I was replying to @Spiritual Israelite not you. I think I meant to address that to post #585 not post 581 instead. Therefore, some of this is not applicable to you since I was meaning these things for @Spiritual Israelite to consider, not you. Once again, my bad. Sorry about that. The only thing I know to do at this point is to delete what I said in regards to post 581, then copy and paste what I said, to post 585 instead. And then try and address post 581 in a different manner since I now realize my mistake. It's one of those days, I guess.

 

[Davidpt]

What is that understanding based on?


LOL! I understand what I'm reading in scripture just fine, but you are sometimes hard to follow. You are just bad at communicating clearly on forums like this, which you have admitted before. You said you are better at communicating verbally. So, don't try to act like you communicate your thoughts clearly on here and there's something wrong with me if I'm not understanding what you're saying.

It would be helpful for you to explain why you think the vials all have to be part of the day of the Lord. I showed how Paul indicated that the day of the Lord refers to the day Christ returns by showing how he called Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him "the day of the Lord" in 2 Thess 2:1-2. So, what is your basis for thinking that the day of the Lord begins even before the day Christ returns? If that's even what you believe. I'm assuming that you don't believe all seven vials of wrath occur on the day He returns, but I'm not sure, so please clarify your understanding of the vials in relation to the day Christ returns.



I NEVER purposely misrepresent what anyone says. That would be a LIE. Why would I lie on a Christian forum (or at any time)? That's ridiculous. I didn't catch that you said that. I was basing that on what you said about the 4th vial. My understanding is that the day of the Lord refers to the day Christ returns. So, you saying that the 4th vial occurs on the day of the Lord made me think you were saying it occurs on the day Christ returns. How can we possibly have a discussion about the day of the Lord that makes any sense when we don't even agree on what the day of the Lord is and entails? That makes it impossible. When people don't agree on the terms being used it makes discussions like this pointless and very confusing.


Right. Jesus comes "immediately after the tribulation of those days" and the day He comes and we are gathered to Him is the day of the Lord (2 Thess 2:1-2).


You keep saying this. What is this based on? The DOTL is the day Christ returns.


Right.


LOL. Where is your evidence to show that all 7 vials of wrath are part of the DOTL? How can YOU be taken seriously when you just make claims like that without doing anything to back them up?

You know, it's interesting that within this thread that was created to refute pre-trib, you, as a post-trib, have not said anything against pre-trib in this entire thread (that I can recall) but you are here debating Amils instead.

In my view, maybe not in your view, is basically where I place some of the following, meaning timeline-wise.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.


a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled---this is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast. This is the same era of time Revelation 20:4 is involving pertaining to these---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Meaning when they are martyred for the reasons listed, it is meaning during this same little season Revelation 6:11 is involving. Therefore, this little season per Revelation 6:11 can't possibly be meaning the same little season per Revelation 20:7-9. One reason why, Revelation 6:11 is meaning before the thousand years begin, Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning after the thousand years have ended. Obviously, you and I are not in agreement about that, but still that is how I view it even if you don't. I'm just trying to explain how I'm arriving at what I do, regardless whether I'm right or wrong.That aside then.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is now involving the DOTL, which is also involving the same 7 last vials of wrath mentioned in Revelation 16. Clearly, during when Revelation 6:11 is meaning, none of that can be involving God's wrath at this point if it is not until the 6th seal that God's wrath begins. And it begins with vial 1. Why wouldn't it? If vial 1 was meaning during the time of the little season(Revelation 6:11), meaning the 42 month reign of the beast to me, would anyone dare be saying any of the following at the time if they were already in the midst of the vials of wrath being poured out on them?

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Even though they likely literally are not saying these things, that is beside the point. The fact when the vials of wrath are being poured out this would indicate war is being made with them, except the passage above indicates, who is able to make war with him? Obviously then, maybe not to you, but to me anyway, this era of time is meaning before any vials are being poured out. Since it would be plain silly to ask a question like that if the vials of wrath are already in progress at the time.

Plus, it would contradict the following as well.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Whatever this might look like when being fulfilled, I seriously doubt they could be finding time to make merry if the vials of wrath are already in progress. It's clues like this that help to give us the timing of some of these events. Maybe those clues mean nothing to you, thus prove nothing one way or the other, but they mean something to me, thus to me prove something one way or the other.

And BTW, none of this even has to be meaning in a literal sense. That's irrelevant anyway. What is relevant is the chronology of events, regardless how they are fulfilled. There is still chronology to factor in, since it would be silly, for instance, to pour out vial 1 before they are even doing those things first. They can't do any of those things until Revelation 13 begins being fulfilled first, for example.

And once again, my position is that all 7 vials of wrath involve the DOTL, and that Christ doesn't return until sometime during the the 7th vial, and that Christ only returns 1 time, not multiple times. Which then has to mean that the beginning of the DOTL is not when Christ returns.

 

[Davidpt]

The second coming occur at the 6th seal. Let's prove that.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

We can tell that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal. The sun and moon are darkened and the stars fall from heaven.

Jesus goes to heaven with all the believers, that is why there is a great multitude in heaven. After the marriage supper of the Lamb, the armies of heaven go to earth where Jesus speaks the Word and then puts His feet on the mount of Olives. This is the second advent.

I'm not certain where we might differ here since I too take the second coming to be meaning during the 6th seal? If the 6th seal is involving an era of time rather than a single 24 hour day, how I might view that, it could mean, though Christ returns during the 6th seal, He doesn't necessarily return at the beginning of it. Meaning the 6th seal starts the 7 last vials of wrath, then at the end of these vials Christ returns. Otherwise, one has to explain how repenting(vial 4) can still be an option after Christ has already returned.

 

[WPM]

I missed the part where I said there was tribulation there.

Where is your changing water into wine in those verses?

You see what we see in the most popular passage quoted by Pretribs: there is no tribulation following the rapture. It ushers in the end and the sudden destruction of all the wicked.

 

[Davidpt]

Actually, the second coming occurs at the 6th seal, when all eyes see the coming of the Lord. He remains in the clouds and all return to heaven

Return to heaven for how long and to do what? Actually, that passage doesn't say one way or the other which direction they go after meeting in the air. Therefore, we have to determine that from other passages. Such as the following maybe.

Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

To me it makes better sense, after they having all met in the air, instead of returning to heaven, they return to the earth. Because, after all, how can they confront the beast and it's armies below if they cower and return to heaven instead?

In my view, the rapture is meant here, thus how these armies are formed. Keeping in mind, heaven doesn't always mean heaven where Christ is currently dwelling.

For example.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;


Obviously, the heaven meant here is not where Christ is currently dwelling. Which can also mean that the heaven meant per the following is also not meaning where Christ is currently dwelling.

Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

IOW, it could be meaning when they meet in the air after Christ has already left heaven. Not to mention, in the KJV the following was added by the translators--which were. Which could mean the verse is saying this instead--And the armies in heaven(meaning in the air, the same air they all meet in) followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The living do not precede the dead. The dead in Christ rise first. The Lord returns for the alive that remain. He brings the dead with Him.

Do you believe in soul sleep? Why are you not responding to what I said about who it is that Jesus will bring with Him when He comes, as alluded to in 1 Thessalonians 4:14? Who else could it be than the souls of the dead in Christ since no one will yet have an immortal body when He descends from heaven with those who sleep in Him?

We see the exact same thing at the gathering from heaven and earth. The Lord comes to the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from the earth. He also sends His angels to gather the Church from heaven because where the carcase is, the eagles will be gathered.

Matthew 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

1 Thes 4
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

What you said in your post is what I used to believe before I understood the harvests.

That harvests thing is complete nonsense. You abandoned the truth for nonsense for whatever reason.

So it is not a case of stubborn pride.

Yes, it is. I show you the truth and you deny it. Only pride can cause that. You probably used to be more humble and that allowed you to see the truth of the matter. It's very obvious that 1 Thess 4:14 talks about Jesus bringing the dead in Christ with Him from heaven. Since they don't have bodies at that point yet, it has to be talking about the souls of the dead in Christ coming with Him. Then they unite with their resurrected, changed bodies. Who else can be with Jesus when He descends from heaven except for the souls of the dead in Christ? Please address this.

It is a case of understanding what is written. Scripture repeatedly says that were the Lord is..........we will be also. That what happens after each harvest.

Each harvest....ridiculous. Not only did Paul never teach anything about the imaginary tribulation period between the rapture and return of Christ that you believe in, but he also did not teach anything about multiple harvests. Do you have such a low opinion of Paul that you think he would have inexplicably neglected to mention anything about those things? Despite the fact that he gave a lot of details about things relating to the second coming of Christ?

If you are looking for the event of Matthew 13:24-27 you need to look at 1 Cor 15

And 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You see what we see in the most popular passage quoted by Pretribs: there is no tribulation following the rapture. It ushers in the end and the sudden destruction of all the wicked.

Right. If Paul was ever going to refer to that imaginary time of tribulation (which he never did), then between the end of 1 Thess 4 and beginning of 1 Thess 5 was the perfect opportunity to do so. But, there's nothing about it there. Clearly, Paul did not believe in a pretrib rapture or else he would have taught it. He clearly did not. I fully accept what Paul taught and he was post-trib and amil.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In my view, maybe not in your view, is basically where I place some of the following, meaning timeline-wise.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled---this is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast. This is the same era of time Revelation 20:4 is involving pertaining to these---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

Meaning when they are martyred for the reasons listed, it is meaning during this same little season Revelation 6:11 is involving. Therefore, this little season per Revelation 6:11 can't possibly be meaning the same little season per Revelation 20:7-9.

In your view it's not possible, but in mine it is. I honestly don't care that it's not possible in your view because I am not obligated to agree with your understanding of the 42 months, of the beast or of Revelation 20:4.

One reason why, Revelation 6:11 is meaning before the thousand years begin, Revelation 20:7-9 is meaning after the thousand years have ended.

That's your assumption because of your premil view, but I believe the little season referenced in Revelation 6:11 occurs after the thousand years have ended and is the same little season as Revelation 20:7-9. I see the seals, trumpets and vials as all being parallel to each other, as I've mentioned many times before. So, I see Satan as being loosed at that point since I see Apollyon (Abaddon) as being another name for Satan and it shows him and his angels (symbolically represented as locusts) being loosed from the bottomless pit at the fifth trumpet, as shown in Revelation 9.

Obviously, you and I are not in agreement about that, but still that is how I view it even if you don't.

Thanks for explaining that, but I already knew how you view it since you've explained it many times before already.

I'm just trying to explain how I'm arriving at what I do, regardless whether I'm right or wrong.That aside then.

Revelation 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This is now involving the DOTL, which is also involving the same 7 last vials of wrath mentioned in Revelation 16. Clearly, during when Revelation 6:11 is meaning, none of that can be involving God's wrath at this point if it is not until the 6th seal that God's wrath begins. And it begins with vial 1. Why wouldn't it? If vial 1 was meaning during the time of the little season(Revelation 6:11), meaning the 42 month reign of the beast to me, would anyone dare be saying any of the following at the time if they were already in the midst of the vials of wrath being poured out on them?

You always argue from your own perspective and then ask how anyone can argue with it? Yes, of course, from your perspective, the vials would all be part of the day of the Lord. But, not from mine because I see the seals, trumpets and vials being parallel with each other rather than seeing all of the seals occurring in order, followed by all the trumpets in order, followed by all the vials in order like you do.

But, as I have explained already, Paul defined the day of the Lord as being the day Jesus comes and we're gathered to Him (2 Thess 2:1-2). You agree that He doesn't come until after the seventh vial is poured out, so how can you have the day of the Lord beginning before the day Christ returns? That contradicts what Paul indicated in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

Can you see here how Paul referred to "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" as "the day of the Lord"? Why do you have the day of the Lord starting already before "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him"?

 

[The Light]

Return to heaven for how long

Here is the Church in heaven after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

HOW LONG? One year according to scripture

Isaiah 34
8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

and to do what?

To do what? The marriage supper of the Lamb.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Additionally, there is more evidence that it is one year after a man is married before he goes to war, which is what the armies of heaven do after the marriage supper.

Deuteronomy 24
5 When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.

Actually, that passage doesn't say one way or the other which direction they go after meeting in the air. Therefore, we have to determine that from other passages. Such as the following maybe.

The great multitude is shown in heaven after the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. Additionally, we see the great multitude in heaven for the marriage supper................before the armies of heaven got to Armageddon at the 6th trumpet and 6th vial.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Even though they likely literally are not saying these things, that is beside the point. The fact when the vials of wrath are being poured out this would indicate war is being made with them, except the passage above indicates, who is able to make war with him? Obviously then, maybe not to you, but to me anyway, this era of time is meaning before any vials are being poured out. Since it would be plain silly to ask a question like that if the vials of wrath are already in progress at the time.

Why? You're constantly making claims like this without really explaining why you're making them. I don't get that.

Plus, it would contradict the following as well.

Revelation 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.


Whatever this might look like when being fulfilled, I seriously doubt they could be finding time to make merry if the vials of wrath are already in progress. It's clues like this that help to give us the timing of some of these events. Maybe those clues mean nothing to you, thus prove nothing one way or the other, but they mean something to me, thus to me prove something one way or the other.

Okay, one of the issues here is that you take the descriptions of the vials very literally, right? Despite the fact that we're talking about the most highly symbolic book in all of scripture? Well, I don't. For example...

Revelation 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea. 4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Are we supposed to take this all literally as if all bodies of water will be turned into blood at some point so that those who "have shed the blood of saints and prophets" only have blood to drink? Clearly, this is all symbolic text. If all that was meant to be taken literally, then what other scripture can we point to that would support that idea?

Did Jesus not say that people will be eating and drinking and marrying and doing things like normal before He comes just like in the days of Noah and the days of Lot? Did you lose sight of that? That would not be the case based on how you interpret the book of Revelation. You shouldn't interpret Revelation in such a way that contradicts other scripture.

You interpret verses like that literally, but then you somehow interpret passages like Matthew 24:15-21 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 in a non-literal way. You get things all mixed up by interpreting literal passages figuratively and figurative passages literally. Because of that, it's impossible for you and I to be on the same page about all this.

And BTW, none of this even has to be meaning in a literal sense. That's irrelevant anyway.

LOL. Oh, now you say this after everything I just said above. Wow. But, how is that irrelevant?

Anyway, the main thing to me is how your understanding of the day of the Lord does not match what we see described in passages like 2 Thess 2:1-2, 1 Thess 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-12, so I believe you need to address that.

What is relevant is the chronology of events, regardless how they are fulfilled. There is still chronology to factor in, since it would be silly, for instance, to pour out vial 1 before they are even doing those things first. They can't do any of those things until Revelation 13 begins being fulfilled first, for example.

That's just your opinion based on your overall understanding of the book of Revelation, which I disagree with, obviously.

And once again, my position is that all 7 vials of wrath involve the DOTL, and that Christ doesn't return until sometime during the the 7th vial, and that Christ only returns 1 time, not multiple times. Which then has to mean that the beginning of the DOTL is not when Christ returns.

You need to explain how the DOTL can begin before "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" occurs since Paul indicated that "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him" occurs on the day of the Lord.

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

You should not try to interpret the book of Revelation in isolation from the rest of scripture because that results in contradictions.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

To do what? The marriage supper of the Lamb.

Revelation 19
6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

The time for the marriage supper of the Lamb will have come at that point, but it will not have happened yet. That's why it says "his wife hath made herself ready". She will be ready for the marriage, which has not yet happened, at that point. And then John proceeds to describe the second coming of Christ shortly after that. So, the idea that the marriage and marriage supper of the Lamb happens in heaven before Christ returns is false.

 

[The Light]

The time for the marriage supper of the Lamb will have come at that point, but it will not have happened yet. That's why it says "his wife hath made herself ready". She will be ready for the marriage, which has not yet happened, at that point. And then John proceeds to describe the second coming of Christ shortly after that. So, the idea that the marriage and marriage supper of the Lamb happens in heaven before Christ returns is false.

The marriage supper of the Lamb is come.


Revelation 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

The time of the marriage supper has come. So do you believe the Word just says the time has come, AND IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN?

The harvest has occurred and the door is shut. Don't you think the marriage will be happen?