Proof of Rapture before Tribulation

[Douggg]

That is not the Rapture. Jesus has come back to earth by then. GONG!

Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture, but the gathering of the Jews from the nations back to the land of Israel, as a promise that God made to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

Deuteronomy 31:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

 

[dad]

No; the Bible never says we humans will live in heaven. It is only the souls of the martyrs that are kept under the Altar. Rev 6:9-11

We will be where He is. If you claim He is on earth again already you have a problem

The only verse which says about a rising up to Jesus, is 1 Thess 4:16-17. It will happen when Jesus has departed from heaven, on His way to Return and reign on earth for the next thousand years.

Says you. But He is in the air and so are we then. The city He prepared for us, in not on earth now. Really

Jesus is in heaven now, but John 14:1-4 never says when His people get to live with Him forever.

Yes, it says we are with Him when we die.

That comes when the new heavens and earth appear. Revelation 21 to 22.

No possibility. You are way over at the end of the 1000 years here. Not even in the ballpark of the conversation

Your fond imaginings of being whisked away from any trials or tribulations, are ill-founded and unscriptural.

Your idea of going through the wrath of God are wrong. (if you are saved)

For God to do that, means He can't protect His faithful people.

God busting Peter out of jail did not mean God could not have protected him in there. God taking us to the Marriage feast at the Rapture means it is His will, not that He is incapable of doing anything else. For prophesy to come true, that must happen

But we know He can and He will, like the 3 men in the furnace, Isaiah 43:2, +

The question is not what we think God can do. The question is what He told us He will do

 

[dad]

Matthew 24:31 is not the rapture, but the gathering of the Jews from the nations back to the land of Israel, as a promise that God made to the children of Israel in Deuteronomy 30:1-6.

No it is God gathering His people. The little remnant that gets saved of Israel in the end is just a portion of His people.

Deuteronomy 31:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

Israel is included in the events of the end, but does not have an exclusive on them, sorry. They mostly get judged as usual.

4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

Only AFTER they get saved in the end.

5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

After they accept Jesus only.

 

[dad]

No one said a man is a church. You made that up as your own strawman fallacy.

Your lack of clarity is the only problem. You cited two churches and talked about the men as if they were one and the same. Be honest

 

[Keraz]

The question is not what we think God can do. The question is what He told us He will do

The answer is what scripture actually says. I have never yet seen a Bible verse that says the Lord will take His people to heaven.
What I have seen is in Hebrews 12:7-8, where those people who want to avoid trials and testing are illegitimate and not His children at all.

 

[Douggg]

No it is God gathering His people. The little remnant that gets saved of Israel in the end is just a portion of His people.

Israel is included in the events of the end, but does not have an exclusive on them, sorry. They mostly get judged as usual.

Only AFTER they get saved in the end.

After they accept Jesus only.

The Jews en-masse will turn to Jesus in the middle of the 7 year 70th week. Revelation 12:10.

Matthew 24:31 is about their being gathered out of the nations and brought to the land of Israel. Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, having returned to this earth, His Second Coming. It says in verse 22....

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Currently, the house of Israel does not acknowledge that Jesus is the LORD their God.

In Ezekiel 39:28 is the gathering of Matthew 24:31....

Ezekiel 39:28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

--------------------------------------

The Jews (Judaism) call the gathering "the final redemption". They believe it is something the mashiach (messiah) will do. (I have made over 10,000 posts at their sites learning what they believe, since 2004. )

 

[rebuilder 454]

What has that got to do with people taken and left at the rapture?? Of course the mark is something that shows people have rejected Jesus. That is supposed to relate to what here?

Chapter and verse!?

Mat 24 you thought was pre tribulation? Why would you say that?

Around vs 38 of mat 24 Jesus declares the setting of His return as " before the flood"...(pretrib setting)

All are killed during the trib that refuse the mark.
So, again, postrib rapture not possible

 

[rebuilder 454]

The answer is what scripture actually says. I have never yet seen a Bible verse that says the Lord will take His people to heaven.
What I have seen is in Hebrews 12:7-8, where those people who want to avoid trials and testing are illegitimate and not His children at all.

The AC kills ALL REFUSING the mark.
You are way off.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Verse?

If they were saved and this was the time of the rapture, they would miss out

Try to be clear. The virgin parable seems to be at the Rapture. Not sure waht point you are trying to make with Mat 24

Yes virgin parable vividly depicts the rapture

Did the foolish have oil?
Yes it says they did.
They had lamps, light ,and oil.
It says so.

 

[dad]

The answer is what scripture actually says.

It says we will rise in the air to be with Him, and Jesus said that we would be where He is, and obviously that is in heaven. No possible debate

I have never yet seen a Bible verse that says the Lord will take His people to heaven.

Guess where Jesus is?

What I have seen is in Hebrews 12:7-8, where those people who want to avoid trials and testing are illegitimate and not His children at all.

Hebrews 12:6
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives."


Hebrews 12:7
It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline?


Hebrews 12:8
If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.

No one gets to 'avoid' the chastening and correction and parenting of Jesus once we are saved. Notice the every one in the verse?

 

[dad]

The Jews en-masse will turn to Jesus in the middle of the 7 year 70th week. Revelation 12:10.

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.


Revelation 12:11
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

It is talking about those people saved by JESUS here. Only the Jews saved by Jesus will be restored. Today that land is stolen. There are people saved in the tribulation from every language and tribe. Not just Jews obviously. Nor is that 'in the middle of the tribulation' Jesus comes to earth at the end of the tribulation. So that is when the kingdom comes.

Matthew 24:31 is about their being gathered out of the nations and brought to the land of Israel. Ezekiel 39:21-29 is Jesus Himself speaking in the text, having returned to this earth, His Second Coming. It says in verse 22....

Matthew 24:29
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.


Matthew 24:30
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The same chapter proves it is not in the middle of the tribulation but after.

Matthew 24:31
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This verse you cited shows it is people all over the world, believers, and not just Jews in Israel, that is ridiculous and blatantly against the Scripture.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

That verse is after God sending birds to eat dead flesh which is not the middle but the end of the tribulation. And most Jews are dead by this time under the wrath of God and clearly it is just a remnant in the end that get saved.

Currently, the house of Israel does not acknowledge that Jesus is the LORD their God.

In Ezekiel 39:28 is the gathering of Matthew 24:31....

No, Eze focuses on those saved Jews. Mat is all over the world, the four corners and we are told that people from all over were saved in that time. Your attempt to cram it all into a tiny Jewishcentric perspective is absolutely refuted.

The Jews (Judaism) call the gathering "the final redemption". They believe it is something the mashiach (messiah) will do. (I have made over 10,000 posts at their sites learning what they believe, since 2004. )

Who really cares what Christ rejectors think?? The bible tells us what happens, regardless of how often you post.

 

[dad]

Around vs 38 of mat 24 Jesus declares the setting of His return as " before the flood"...(pretrib setting)

Probably even more like before the flood when He returns the second time to earth. It gets worse and worse. In other words the world is very very evil when He returns. NOT that 'He is returning before the trouble'!

All are killed during the trib that refuse the mark.

All are supposed to be killed by the evil ruler. Good luck with that pal.

So, again, postrib rapture not possible

Who even mentioned post trib rapture here?

 

[dad]

Yes virgin parable vividly depicts the rapture

I tend to agree

Did the foolish have oil?
Yes it says they did.

Never saw that verse? Which one says that? I may need to revisit my theory

They had lamps, light ,and oil.
It says so.

Where?

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 12:11
And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

It is talking about those people saved by JESUS here. Only the Jews saved by Jesus will be restored.

Revelation 12:10 is talking about the Jews en masse turning to Jesus and the gospel of Salvation. When Jesus returns and Matthew 24:31 takes place, the Jews will have turned to Jesus. And Jerusalem will say of Jesus - Blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord. (Matthew 23:39)

Who really cares what Christ rejectors think?? The bible tells us what happens, regardless of how often you post.

At present most Jews do not accept Jesus. That will change in Revelation 12:10.

Knowing what Jews (Judaism) believe gives key understanding of how, for a short time, they will think that the Prince that shall come is their long awaited messiah. Their beliefs also helps to know who the Antichrist will be. The Jews believe that the messiah will be a great politician and have military ability, to fight the battles of God in defending Israel.

 

[Douggg]

Matthew 24:30
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The same chapter proves it is not in the middle of the tribulation but after.

Matthew 24:31
And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This verse you cited shows it is people all over the world, believers, and not just Jews in Israel, that is ridiculous and blatantly against the Scripture.

No, you are just simply not understanding those Scriptures. From one end of heaven to the other, is the same language used in Deuteronomy 30:1-6, verse 4.

Some of the Jews in Israel will flee right away to the mountains when the abomination of desolation is setup, Revelation 12:14. The ones in Israel who do not flee right away will be blocked from fleeing and are the ones in Revelation 12:17.

In Zechariah 14,, when Jesus returns, He rescues those Jews as half of the city (Zechariah 14:2) will be taken as hostages by the kings of the earth, in hopes of keeping Jesus from executing judgment to them. But when Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half, those Jews will escape through it to safety (Zechariah 14:4-5)

Here is a graphic I made of that day....

 

[dad]

Revelation 12:10 is talking about the Jews en masse turning to Jesus and the gospel of Salvation.

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
No, believers in Christ. Only the remnant that believe in the end are involved at all here. Nothing to do with Jews (except some are saved as well) or en masse.

When Jesus returns and Matthew 24:31 takes place, the Jews will have turned to Jesus.

So? They are one people. There are many that will turn to Christ! And the verse as pointed out talks of believers gathered all over the world.

And Jerusalem will say of Jesus - Blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord. (Matthew 23:39)

What is left of them, of course. Otherwise they would not be alive then.

At present most Jews do not accept Jesus. That will change in Revelation 12:10.

False it does not so much as even mention them there

Knowing what Jews (Judaism) believe gives key understanding of how, for a short time, they will think that the Prince that shall come is their long awaited messiah.

My sheep hear my voice. The ones deluded are not believers. Only the little remnant in the very end get saved. (except for all the individuals as well through that time)

Their beliefs also helps to know who the Antichrist will be.

No one knows that.

The Jews believe that the messiah will be a great politician and have military ability, to fight the battles of God in defending Israel.

Anyone could read prophesy and get that much.

 

[dad]

No, you are just simply not understanding those Scriptures. From one end of heaven to the other, is the same language used in Deuteronomy 30:1-6, verse 4.

The Lord gathers all His sheep, including the saved Jews at the end time. So of course He restores and gathers them as well. No exclusive, sorry.

Some of the Jews in Israel will flee right away to the mountains when the abomination of desolation is setup, Revelation 12:14. The ones in Israel who do not flee right away will be blocked from fleeing and are the ones in Revelation 12:17.

OK

In Zechariah 14,, when Jesus returns, He rescues those Jews as half of the city (Zechariah 14:2) will be taken as hostages by the kings of the earth, in hopes of keeping Jesus from executing judgment to them.

That is in the end sometime. However, no one will be 'going forth into captivity' There is no more time for that. Jesus takes care of business. Now why Israel suffers so we do not know. One guess is that Satan wants to frustrate prophesy. But I think even he knows that is impossible! Another guess would be that Israel used some nukes and was killing it's neighbours etc etc. In such a scenario, a world police action would be fine. Your guess has no weight. You also should present it as a what if scenario, not some supposed matter of fact

But when Jesus stands on the Mt. of Olives splitting it in half, those Jews will escape through it to safety (Zechariah 14:4-5)

Here is a graphic I made of that day....

Yes, just before He comes the earthquake comes and changes things there and some will flee. The rest you are guessing at.

 

[Douggg]

Revelation 12:10
And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

No, believers in Christ. Only the remnant that believe in the end are involved at all here. Nothing to do with Jews (except some are saved as well) or en masse.

"have come" meaning that they were not believers in Jesus nor the gospel of salvation before then.

 

[Douggg]

That is in the end sometime. However, no one will be 'going forth into captivity'

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

half of the city of Jerusalem will be taken as hostages is what it means.

 

[Douggg]

Anyone could read prophesy and get that much.

I wrote.... "The Jews believe that the messiah will be a great politician and have military ability, to fight the battles of God in defending Israel."

Jesus is the true messiah. Was Jesus a great politician ? No. Did Jesus demonstrate military ability ? No.

Differently, the person who becomes the Antichrist will exhibit those qualities. He will be a Jew, who is a great politician, and has military ability - which will contribute to the Jews, for a while, to believe that he is their long awaited messiah.

Those are three things to look for in trying to figure out who that person is.