Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

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Rich R

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If all Israel isn’t saved right now then “all Israel shall be saved” is a mistake in the Bible or “all Israel” doesn’t mean what you’re putting forth.
Well, the earliest texts don't vary from the KJV, so there's no mistake in the Bible.

I never really said what "all Israel" meant. I'm not sure why it would need a commentary. I assumed everyone knew the meaning of the words "all" and "Israel."
 

IndianaRob

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Well, the earliest texts don't vary from the KJV, so there's no mistake in the Bible.

I never really said what "all Israel" meant. I'm not sure why it would need a commentary. I assumed everyone knew the meaning of the words "all" and "Israel."
My bad, I apologize for assuming. So what does all Israel mean in your view?
 

IndianaRob

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It just means all Israel, not part of it.

I know I just quoted one verse, but it would really help you to read the whole chapter to get the context.
Does all Israel shall be saved include the people of Israel that hate God?
 

Davidpt

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Does all Israel shall be saved include the people of Israel that hate God?

I tend to think it means the following. It means all Jews that were never cutoff for disbelief, all unbelieving Jews that get graffed back in because they are no longer in disbelief, and all Gentiles that are graffed in because of belief. This would mean all the following are excluded. Any unbelieving Jew that refuses to believe instead. Any unbelieving Gentile that refuses to believe instead. To insist it includes all unbelieving Jews that choose to remain in disbelief, is not reasonable. That would be like saying it also includes all unbelieving Gentiles that choose to remain in disbelief. And the next thing you know, now Universalism is being promoted since everyone is saved regardless who they are. After all, it would be cherry picking to insist it is meaning all Jews, while insisting it is not meaning all Gentiles as well.
 
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IndianaRob

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I tend to think it means the following. In means all Jews that were never cutoff for unbelief, all unbelieving Jews that get graffed back in because they are no longer in unbelief, and all Gentiles that are graffed in because of belief. This would mean all the following are excluded. Any unbelieving Jew that refuses to believe instead. Any unbelieving Gentile that refuses to believe instead. To insist it includes all unbelieving Jews that choose to remain in disbelief, is not reasonable. That would be like saying it also includes all unbelieving Gentiles that choose to remain in disbelief. And the next thing you know, now Universalism is being promoted since everyone is saved regardless who they are. After all, it would be cherry picking to insist it is meaning all Jews, while insisting it is not meaning all Gentiles as well.
I agree. This is one of those passages that talks about spiritual Israel (Jews and Gentiles) without using the term spiritual Israel.
 

Davidpt

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I agree. This is one of those passages that talks about spiritual Israel (Jews and Gentiles) without using the term spiritual Israel.

Which goes to show, in my case anyway, that one can be Premil and still understand some of these other passages correctly, such as what we are discussing here. That aside.

Per my view of Premil God spares some unbelievers during the 2nd coming, for example, Zechariah 14:16-19. They live on during the millennium, but not procreating like some Premils tend to think, but that they live the entire thousand years. Then they are tested. Do they want to continue in this manner or would they rather rebel instead?

And why not? Amil can't explain how there can be all these billions of rebels living during their proposed millennium, meaning they would be being deceived during the millennium, otherwise they would be among the saved instead. To then be deceived after the millennium. Except the idea is, you deceive someone not already deceived, not someone already deceived.

Per Premil, none of these during the millennium would be being deceived any longer. There would be no one to deceive them. Christ and His resurrected saints certainly wouldn't be trying to deceive them.
 
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Rich R

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Does all Israel shall be saved include the people of Israel that hate God?
Good question. Obviously hating God is a sin.

Jer 31:34,

And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.​

Heb 8:12,

For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.​
Heb 10:17,

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.​
Man has a hard time with grace because we tend to be vindictive. But God is not like that. He understands grace and He gives it freely.

Everybody is born in sin, Jew and Gentile alike. There is not one Christian who deserved what God gave them. It's grace piled on grace. So why is it so hard to see that God can do the same with Israel? Yes, it's hard to understand, but all things are possible with God.

God says all Israel shall be saved. There's nothing complicated about that, no need to stress about what the words mean. They mean what they say. The only decision we have to make is whether or not those words are true or not, do we believe God or not.
 

IndianaRob

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Which goes to show, in my case anyway, that one can be Premil and still understand some of these other passages correctly, such as what we are discussing here. That aside.

Per my view of Premil God spares some unbelievers during the 2nd coming, for example, Zechariah 14:16-19. They live on during the millennium, but not procreating like some Premils tend to think, but that they live the entire thousand years. Then they are tested. Do they want to continue in this manner or would they rather rebel instead?

And why not? Amil can't explain how there can be all these billions of rebels living during their proposed millennium, meaning they would be being deceived during the millennium, otherwise they would be among the saved instead. To then be deceived after the millennium. Except the idea is, you deceive someone not already deceived, not someone already deceived.

Per Premil, none of these during the millennium would be being deceived any longer. There would be no one to deceive them. Christ and His resurrected saints certainly wouldn't be trying to deceive them.
The reason amil and premil are both wrong is because both sides ignore verses that dont support their side.

Jesus said his kingdom is not a physical earthly kingdom but premils are looking for a physical earthly kingdom.

Amils spiritualize things that shouldn’t be spiritualized.
 
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covenantee

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It just means all Israel, not part of it.

I know I just quoted one verse, but it would really help you to read the whole chapter to get the context.
Paul has previously identified "all Israel" for us, saved by One Plan.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
 
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IndianaRob

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Paul has previously identified "all Israel" for us.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these two Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only faithful obedient spiritual "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant from Israel (Romans 9:27; Romans 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.
With that explanation I don’t see how anyone would not understand. Great post!
 
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covenantee

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Very true. It is in the present tense. That's precisely why this verse is using the prophetic future. as indicated by the fact that Jer 31:31 (or the whole chapter) has not come to pass.

The purpose of the prophetic future figure of speech is to show the certainty of some future action.

Ooops! I just realized that what I've been calling prophetic future is actually called Prophetic Perfect. Doesn't change the concept though.

Here's Wiki on prophetic perfect: Prophetic Perfect


I think you are much closer to things when you said, "or initially fulfilled with ongoing completion." The deserts aren't blooming yet.

Look up the meaning of the Greek word they translate as "everlasting." It does not mean something already done, something that existed in the past. It's more about what is future.
As you agree, Jesus' Words in Matthew 26:28, speaking of His New Covenant, are unmistakably in the present tense.

Yet you claim that Jeremiah 31:31, which is quoted virtually verbatim in Hebrews 8:8 speaking of the same New Covenant, is not in the present tense, even though preceded and followed by Scripture affirming fulfillment in the present tense.

Both cannot be right.

Either Jesus is wrong, or you're wrong.

I'll let you decide.
 
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covenantee

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Read all of Romans 11, noting particularly,

Rom 11:26,

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​
All I did was quote that verse. How is that preaching a false Gospel?

Is all Israel saved now? I don't think do. So Romans 11:26 must be talking about some other plan God has for the Jews who don't accept Jesus in this age. That is precisely what Jeremiah, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Revelation, etc. are about.
Explain how Romans 11:26 could be talking about some plan other than God's One Plan of Salvation by Grace through Faith in Christ Alone.

With Scripture.
 
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Keraz

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Does all Israel shall be saved include the people of Israel that hate God?
A question that Jesus and the Prophets comprehensively answer with a resounding NO. Paul says it succinctly; Of Israel; only a remnant shall be saved.
The Jews cursed themselves. Matthew 27:25 and Jesus cursed them too; Matthew 21:19

Gods people can only be those who believe in Jesus and who keep His Commandments.
There is no Prophecy that says there will be a general Jewish redemption, that idea is just a part of the false 'rapture to heaven' theory.
 
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Keraz

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There is no millennium mention or inferred in this passage. You have to force it into the text. It doesn't in any way say on the 3,000th day but the 3rd day, this is symbolism/spiritualization gone crazy. Such extremities are required to make Premil fit. The reality is it is referring to Christ's glorious resurrection.

Not so. He is describing the resurrection of Christ. There is no mention of thousands. You force that into the text to support your beliefs. What is more. We are already in the 3rd thousand now, demolishing your future millennium theory.
You are hypocritical and locked into false theories. Spiritualization is your forte.
Revelation 20 tells us about the thousand years of the Millennium, and Hosea 6:1-3, Luke 13:32, confirm the sequence of the 2000 years of the Church age, then the final age of the reign of King Jesus.

We are still less that 2000 years since Jesus was last on earth, demolishing your crude and arrogant accusations.
No text seems safe with Premil eisegesis. Where is there any mention of an alleged future millennium in Hosea 6:2 or Luke 13:32?
The whole Bible is unsafe with the AMill rubbish imposed on it.
You show your true colors, by flatly dismissing Hosea 6:3 and Luke 13:32.
By not disproving how they refer to the future Millennium, your lack of response and avoidance, just displays the hopeless errors of AMil and reinforces the truth of God 7000 year Plan for mankind.
 
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Rich R

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Explain how Romans 11:26 could be talking about some plan other than God's One Plan of Salvation by Grace through Faith in Christ Alone.

With Scripture.
Let's take a look at the verse:

Rom 11:26,

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:​

Does it say Israel will be saved through Faith in Christ Alone? Not the way I read it. To me it says, "There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:" Where do you see anything about faith in Christ?

Now I do see other places that talk about Christians being saved by grace through faith, but that's not what Romans 11:26 says.

I see that we are grafted into Israel by faith in verse 20 which is talking about Christians. In fact, Romans 10:9-10 and many other places says anyone can be saved by faith. Any Jew of Gentile can do that and become Christians. Obviously many choose not to do that. So what does God do for them?

Well, God will save all of Israel (specifically those who did not confess Jesus when they had the chance), when the new covenant of Isaiah 31:31 comes to pass. Note that nowhere in that chapter does it mention anything about faith. It just that He'll save all of Israel. Now just because that goes against one's personal opinion or doctrine, there is no justification for second guessing what it clearly says. Better to change one's opinion or doctrine to conform to the scriptures than the other way around.

As far as the Gentiles that choose not to believe Jesus, Revelation 20 says they will be judged by their works.

Christians are Christians and Jews are Jews, and Gentiles are Gentiles. God does have different plans for each. Mix them up and the whole story gets mixed up and the truth goes up in smoke.

If you have trouble thinking about God saving a sinful nation (which Israel obviously was), just think about how He saved you. He didn't wait until you cleaned up your previous sinful life before saving you. He accepted you while you were still dead in trespasses and sins. Do you think your previous life was any better than that of the average Jew? There are no degrees of dead in trespasses and sins. There's no such thing as being a little dead or a being a little sinful. Dead is dead and sin is sin. If God can save you by grace, why can't He do the same for every Jew?

Rom 9:20,

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus?​
 

Keraz

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Let's take a look at the verse:

Rom 11:26,
And in This Way, All Israel Will Be Saved: The Meaning of Romans 11.26
Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved. Romans 11.25-26

Paul wants the reader to understand the mystery of the partial hardening of Israel and the hope that all Israel will be saved. Unfortunately, although Paul was intending to make the mystery clear to the reader, that sentence has proved to be most puzzling for those who are trying to understand who is the Israel Paul refers to. There are several ways to interpret the meaning of Romans 11:26:

The Elect. Both Jew and Gentile; the Church of individual Christian believers"
In the context of all Paul’s teachings: all Israel of Romans 11.26 refers to all of the elect, both Jew and Gentile. In other words, the church has become the Israel of God. Indeed, Paul redefined basic terms of Judaism several times in his writings. In Galatians 6.16, Paul described those in Christ as the Israel of God. He redefined circumcision, Philippians 3.3, Colossians 2.11-12, and what it means to be a descendant of Abraham.

In Romans 9-11, he wrote that not all who descended from Israel belong to Israel, Romans 9.6 and that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, with no distinction between Jew and Greek. Galatians 3:29

Beginning with Romans 11.13, Paul warned the Gentiles not to be arrogant towards the branches, meaning that the Gentile believers were not to think of themselves as more loved by God since most Jews have rejected the Messiah. After all, Gentiles were only grafted in by God’s grace and mercy. But non-ethnic people ARE grafted into the Israel of God, by reason of their belief in God and their faith in Him.

Ethnic Israel. The Jewish people, plus the 10 tribes still scattered among the nations:
Another way that some have understood the “all Israel” of Romans 11.26 is that Paul was writing of the ethnic Jewish nation of Israel . In other words, Paul meant that at some point in time in the future, after the fullness of the Gentiles had come into the Kingdom of God, the ethnic descendants of Jacob would be saved. It is hardly likely that: all Israel means every descendant of Jacob that had ever lived or those Israelites who will be alive at the time when the fullness of the Gentiles becomes complete. Regardless, the basic tenet of this view is that after the full number of the elect Gentiles had come to faith in Christ, there would be a mass conversion of Israel to faith in Christ. Most think that this would happen just prior to or at the moment of Christ’s Return, when: the Deliverer will come from Zion. At this point, the Messiah would banish ungodliness from Jacob, which some take to mean that God would remove the hardening upon Israel. Romans 11.25

There are two major difficulties with this view. The first problem deals with the proper interpretation of two small Greek words. The first word of interest is the Greek word ούτώς in Romans 11.26. The basic meaning of the word is in this manner (Thayer’s Greek Definitions) and usually has a modal sense: dealing with the manner of Israel’s salvation, and never a temporal sense: dealing with the timing of Israel’s salvation.

The NIV interprets Romans 11.26 to read, And so, all Israel will be saved, which could be read: and after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, then all Israel will be saved, but this is not the best interpretation of the text. The ESV captures it better by reading: And in this way, all Israel will be saved. The “in this way” has already been clearly explained by Paul in Romans 10:8-17… faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ and there is no distinction between Jew and Greek as to the manner of salvation.

The second Greek word of interest is άχρι in Romans 11.25. The basic meaning is “until” and is essentially terminative in its significance, implying the end of something. But the context alone determines whether the emphasis is upon what happens after the end of something or upon the end itself. For example, in 1 Corinthians 11.26, Paul instructed the church about the Lord’s Supper saying: For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

The emphasis was not that the church would cease to celebrate the Supper after the Lord’s return but that the Lord’s Return would terminate the celebration of the Supper. Another example is 1 Corinthians 15.25 where Paul wrote that Christ must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The point was not that there would come a time when Christ would no longer reign but that He would continue to reign until the last enemy was conquered.
It seems that the entire idea of a future mass conversion of Israel at some point in history’s future at the return of Christ depends upon these two words being interpreted in a way that is contrary to the context.

But the second major difficulty is that it seems to imply, or at least many who hold to this interpretation insist upon, that the way unto salvation for Israel will be different than the way of salvation for the Gentiles. Some have suggested that the conversion of all of Israel will happen through a direct revelation of Christ prior to the Second Coming, much like what happened to Paul on the road to Damascus. But this seems to contradict the point of Romans 10-11, that there is no distinction between Jew and Greek and that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of the Gospel. It would seem that Romans 10:6 would be rendered meaningless, too.

Others have suggested that there is a two track way to salvation, one for the Gentiles and one for the Jews. In other words, while the Gentiles are being saved by grace through faith, the Jews will be saved by their faithfulness to the Sinai covenant. But this contradicts the entire teaching of the book of Romans. How could Paul write: by works of the law no human being will be justified in His sight. Romans 3.20, and then imply that the Jews will be saved if they return to being faithful to the law? Furthermore, if there are two ways to enter the Kingdom of God, then Paul’s analogy of the olive tree, makes no sense.

Others have suggested that the future mass conversion of the Jewish people will indeed be the mystery that Paul wrote about. At some point in the future, the hardening will be removed and the Jews, as a whole but not necessarily every single Jewish person, will believe in Jesus and confess Him as Savior and Lord. While this is a wonderful thought, and would indeed be a mystery, it does not fit the plain reading of the text.

Despite the interpretation of “until” and “so” of Romans 11.25-26 that was mentioned above, it should be noted that Paul has been speaking in the present tense throughout Romans 11. He wrote of the remnant chosen by grace at this present time. Romans 11.5 He was hopeful that his ministry might make his fellow Jews jealous in order to save some of them, Romans 11.13-14 He also was hopeful that that those who were disobedient may “now” receive mercy. Romans 11.30-31

It seems that Paul was in anguish for his kinsmen according to the flesh to be saved, to confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord. If he were confident that at some point in the future “all Israel would be saved,” then why be in anguish? Indeed, he knew that not all obeyed the gospel. Romans 10.16

In addition, if Paul did write about a future conversion of all of Israel, then this would be the only place in the New Testament where this last days idea is introduced. Jesus did not speak of it in Matthew 24, nor did Paul write of it in 1 Thessalonians 2.14-16 where he wrote of God’s wrath coming upon the disbelieving Jews until the end. It is missing from the vision given to John in the book of Revelation.

There has always been, and continues to be, a remnant chosen by grace among the Jews who believe that Jesus is the Christ, that God raised Him from the dead, and who confess Him as Lord. But they are only a small portion of the entire Christian Israel of God.

Therefore it is as Revelation 5:9-10 says: people from every tribe, race, nation and language are made unto God His rulers and priests, His overcomers on earth, the Israelites of God. ALL the faithful Christian people.
 
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Rich R

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As you agree, Jesus' Words in Matthew 26:28, speaking of His New Covenant, are unmistakably in the present tense

Yet you claim that Jeremiah 31:31, which is quoted virtually verbatim in Hebrews 8:8 speaking of the same New Covenant, is not in the present tense, even though preceded and followed by Scripture affirming fulfillment in the present tense.

Both cannot be right.

Either Jesus is wrong, or you're wrong.

I'll let you decide.
Try to image you were sitting at the table with Jesus when he uttered those words. Furthermore, try to imagine you were intimately familiar with Jeremiah (any good Jew would know Jeremiah). When Jesus mentioned a "new covenant", where do think your mind may have gone? Maybe Jeremiah 31? After all, Jeremiah was the only verse in the entire Hebrew scriptures that mentioned a "new covenant." You'd have known nothing about the church since it was still a secret hidden with God at that time. And yet you could see with your own eyes that the things talked about in Jeremiah 31 were not happening. So how would you take Jesus' words?