Daniel Chapter 2
- Thread starter CTK
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Only that they were saved by grace through faith. Their actions proved their faith
Yes.
But their actions didn't "make reconciliation for iniquity".
Christ alone did that.
No but their actions were the proof of faith
True but their actions proved their faith
Last edited:
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
It is true that the iron kingdom, equivalent to the 4th beast of Daniel 7, continues all the way from the time of its beginning after Greece, to the second coming. However, as we have noted, the latter part of its existence incorporated a component of clay. In its beginning, Rome was pagan through and through. It's idolatrous standards planted in holy ground around Jerusalem were the abomination of desolation, and will be repeated in the future. Roman standards around spiritual Israel, the church. Identifying the clay component gives us the clue.
“Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? ”
Isaiah 45:9 KJV
Workable clay is God's people. There are numerous references that suggest this, from Adam to the church. The iron and clay is a union of church and state. Pagan Rome morphing into papal Rome. Both being compromised, neither being pure, and the whole never completely mixing as it was never intended to be by nature. History verified this through out the dark ages when various papal sponsored armies attempted to unite Europe, but failing, even using intermarriage to unite kingdoms, but never succeeded. The future will reveal per Revelation 13 another power forming an image... another union of church and state... and causing all to worship according to its dictates, using threats of financial controls to coerce obedience. And then a death sentence.
“Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? ”
Isaiah 45:9 KJV
Workable clay is God's people. There are numerous references that suggest this, from Adam to the church. The iron and clay is a union of church and state. Pagan Rome morphing into papal Rome. Both being compromised, neither being pure, and the whole never completely mixing as it was never intended to be by nature. History verified this through out the dark ages when various papal sponsored armies attempted to unite Europe, but failing, even using intermarriage to unite kingdoms, but never succeeded. The future will reveal per Revelation 13 another power forming an image... another union of church and state... and causing all to worship according to its dictates, using threats of financial controls to coerce obedience. And then a death sentence.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The 5th world power were the ten toes up until the Reformation. From the 5th century to the 15th century was an even longer period for the toes, than Rome, the 4th kingdom.
We are past Daniel 2, post the Reformation. 5 have fallen (at the Reformation). All of Daniel 2 has been fulfilled. The church has filled the earth, with individuals from every nation representing the church on the earth. The body of Christ is the church as the stone cut out without hands.
Jesus said, upon this rock, Jesus Christ, the chief corner stone, who is the foundation of the church, the mountain that kept getting bigger and bigger crushing the image at the toes, the point of the Reformation.
We are are in the "dead" 6th kingdom, as no one power currently rules; until the Second Coming happens; and Satan heals the 6th kingdom as an opposition kingdom to Jesus personally being on the earth.
Ronald D Milam
Well-Known Member
That's not the 5th my brother, the 5th or 70th Head (adding in Egypt & Assyria) is one man, not a nation entity. We know all Beasts start out as one many by reading Dan. 7:17, they only become Beast Kingdoms when they pass their kingdom on to an heir/son/Generals.
Dan. 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
So, we are thus given all the clues we need to who is the 5th Beast in Dan. 7:23-24 and in Rev. 13 & 17. Its one man, in Daniel 7 & 8 he's called the Little Horn, and spoken of as a Beast with a mouth and eyes. Revelation 17 points to 7 Mountain (powers) that arise and 7 kings who fall, notice the KINGS WHO FALL, this is God pinpointing two things, Powers that arise like the four kings in Dan. 7:17 and kings that fall, but why do we get that? So, we can understand that out of all 7 only one rose as the King Beast AND fell as the King Beast and never passed his kingdom on to another, he rules but 42 months then falls. That is why Gid uses 6 for him, the 666 is just added emphasis, God is basically shouting the LAST BEAST is ONE MAN. And Dan. 7:11 and Rev. 19:20 says just this, his body is destroyed and he is cast into hell in Dan. 7:11 and he and the false prophet is cast into hell in Rev. 19:20.
What people do not get about prophecy and these Beasts is God has centered all of these Beasts around Israel being under their thumb, they Church delivered the Mortal Wound to Rome, we turned them from a Beast into a conveyor belt of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus stated the gates of hell will not overcome my church. Every Beast is about Israel and the Mediterranean Sea Region. Israel was as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, thus there was no Beast over them nor could there be, that is why the Ottoman Empire is not a Beast, and why the British were not a Beast.
No my friend, the AC/Little Horn has not yet been cast into hell. Dan. 2 nor 7 has been fulfilled.
You mention that Chapter 2 has been fulfilled. What does that mean?
Doesn’t this chapter identify the 4 and only 4 kingdoms- Isn’t that what is given to us in the “dream sequence”?
Later, in verses 40 - 45, the “interpretation sequence” verses, Daniel gives us further details that will take place within the 4th kingdom. So Chapter 2 provides the “4 kingdom structure” where God will reveal His prophetic messages that will take place within each of the 4 kingdoms.
But I am having trouble understanding how the prophetic events, especially in 41-43 have been fulfilled.
I am sure we must have a very different set of interpretations for these 3 verses.
Would you mind sharing your interpretations for each? (41-43).
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The Reformation destroyed the image at the end of the ten toes, empire, the 5th historical kingdom in Daniel 2.
Rome does not stretch from 70BC to the Second Coming. There were 5 kingdoms, and the ten toes replaced Rome as Rome was divided between the east and west, as the empire was split in half. The only part of Rome (as an empire) that remained was the east in Constantinople.
John in Revelation tells us about the 6th kingdom after the 5th fell, which was at the point of the Reformation, not the Second Coming. There will not be 3 kingdoms after the Second Coming.
Unfortunately, that response is quite vague and I don’t see how it can be interpreted from anything in Chapter 2.
Can you tell me what verses 41-43 mean to you ? How do they explain or reveal more details about the 4 kingdoms in the “dream sequence?”
Chapter 2 does not provide us with a series of events that go away. It’s purpose is to establish the 4 kingdom structure from God where He will reveal His prophecies through…
So, He has identified 4 kingdoms and then in the “interpretation sequence” verses of 41-43 He provides a series of events that will occur in the 4th kingdom but they do not expire. They speak of the events that will continue until His second coming.
Hopefully, you can provide your understanding of 41-43.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
The Cross and the church was the start of this kingdom.
The Cross was the stone cut out without hands.
The church started to multiply on the earth spreading the Gospel throughout the Dark Ages.
It was not just about the ten toes. The church was the mountain that filled the earth by the time the Reformation started.
Had it not been for faithful Christians, the early church fathers would have been nothing, even if they got all the spotlight in church history. Thousands were martyred, not just the outspoken few. But it was the church that did away with these earthly Babylonian empires, by just being faithful and obedient yo God. It was not by physical warfare. The church placed the 6th kingdom, not even covered by Daniel 2, in a mortal position, with a deadly wound.
When the church is removed at the 5th Seal, then Satan will get the credit for restoring a one world 6th kingdom entity, per Revelation 13.
I am not sure why some think the EU is the one with the mortal wound. I don't see any one saying the EU is the restoration of the 6th kingdom. At the 6th Seal the entire geography of the earth is going to change. The ten horns, having no kingdom, will have been gaining a following and an army in the aftermath of the 6th Seal.
I don’t see it being just Europe, but all current nations will be in turmoil, as all the works of man will also be burned up at the same time.
You ask to have an understanding of this image, but this image stopped being relevant at the Reformation, as well as most of Daniel's dreams about these 5 fallen empires. No one from the past is going to be reincarnated, and the types have all been fulfilled. There is no little horn mentioned in Revelation. There is not even an Antichrist mentined in Revelation. In Revelation 13 a new image is set up. That is the only thing relevant in the future.
44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.
The Cross and the church was the start of this kingdom.
The Cross was the stone cut out without hands.
The church started to multiply on the earth spreading the Gospel throughout the Dark Ages.
It was not just about the ten toes. The church was the mountain that filled the earth by the time the Reformation started.
Had it not been for faithful Christians, the early church fathers would have been nothing, even if they got all the spotlight in church history. Thousands were martyred, not just the outspoken few. But it was the church that did away with these earthly Babylonian empires, by just being faithful and obedient yo God. It was not by physical warfare. The church placed the 6th kingdom, not even covered by Daniel 2, in a mortal position, with a deadly wound.
When the church is removed at the 5th Seal, then Satan will get the credit for restoring a one world 6th kingdom entity, per Revelation 13.
I am not sure why some think the EU is the one with the mortal wound. I don't see any one saying the EU is the restoration of the 6th kingdom. At the 6th Seal the entire geography of the earth is going to change. The ten horns, having no kingdom, will have been gaining a following and an army in the aftermath of the 6th Seal.
I don’t see it being just Europe, but all current nations will be in turmoil, as all the works of man will also be burned up at the same time.
You ask to have an understanding of this image, but this image stopped being relevant at the Reformation, as well as most of Daniel's dreams about these 5 fallen empires. No one from the past is going to be reincarnated, and the types have all been fulfilled. There is no little horn mentioned in Revelation. There is not even an Antichrist mentined in Revelation. In Revelation 13 a new image is set up. That is the only thing relevant in the future.
Last edited:
Hello all,I believe that I addressed every post to me on this thread and I’m sorry if I missed anyone but still no one has tried to comment or explain my three points below.
Below are three main points to show that Jesus wasn't any part of the prophecy of the 70 weeks
1-Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.
2-It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is only one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?
3-Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.
Below are three main points to show that Jesus wasn't any part of the prophecy of the 70 weeks
1-Some people think that the 70 weeks start in 445 BC, but this is 160 years after 605 B.C. when the Jews were taken into captivity. If this was the case then the curse of the covenant would not come into effect on those who did not repent-in 535 B.C. when Jeremiah's 70 years prophecy expired. Instead it would come their grandchildren and great grandchildren which would violate the principal of the Law of Moses that children pay the price for their parents and grandparents sins.
2-It says that the anointed one will come after 62 & 7 weeks but he is cut off after 62 weeks. How can the anointed one if it is only one person come 49 years after he is cut off? This proves that it is two different people. If it is Jesus how could He come 49 years after he dies?
3-Not once in the bible did Jesus or any of the new testament writers ever claim that Jesus fulfilled any parts of the 70 weeks. This would not be missed and if it was Jesus it would prove who Jesus is to the Jews Especially in the book of Matthew. Thus Jesus is not either of the anointed ones in the prophecy of the 70 weeks.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
"These kings" are not the 4th kingdom - Rome. The Romans were never a "Kingdom". They were a Republic, and you don't think God would understand that? They had a Ceasar, but that is not necessarily a king, but an emperor.
The ten toes were nations of kings. That happened from the 5th to 16th centuries.
Some want to say that from Nebuchadnezzar until the ten toes were the days that kingdom of God was established. Certainly the Cross was not during the reign of Nebuchadnezzar.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
In all fairness this thread is about Daniel 2 and not chapter 9.
The 70th week is the Messiah the Prince.
Jesus was the Messiah, and will be the Prince to come. If you cannot see Jesus as both Christ and King (Messiah and Prince), not sure what else can be said?
If Jesus was not on the earth as Messiah roughly 3.5 years, and never returns as Prince for the last 3.5 years, only then will you have a point.
Your point that the 62 weeks precedes the 7 weeks is an odd view. We can see in Ezra and Nehemiah the 7 weeks preceded the last 62. Do you have an English translation that places the 62 prior to the 7? Many people use 69 and that is not even found in any English translation that I am aware of. It is just adding 7+62 as a private interpretation.
Paul said that Jesus was the 2nd Adam and was obedient where all other humans failed. Not sure why Paul needed to point that out specifically about Daniel. You also have to understand that Paul was a Pharisee. Most of religious Jews do not accept Daniel as part of the OT Canon. I don't think any in the first century were ever expecting any of Daniel to be fulfilled nor make sense. Only Anna and Simeon seemed to understand who Jesus was without being told by Jesus. Jesus had to referesh the understanding of His generation that He was fulfilling prophecy.
Last edited:
I still don't know what you are telling me about verses 41-43. Can you start by telling me who the symbols refer to, what time period is being discussed, please take one verse at a time and unpack it and explain what it means. It is not easy by no means, but it is very specific.
Similar threads
