Daniel Chapter 2

[David in NJ]

With the exception of Chapter 11, Chapter 2 might just be the most difficult chapter to unpack and interpret in the Book of Daniel. So, does anyone have a particular verse or series of verses that just seem to defy understanding.... they would like to throw out to the community?

Daniel ch2 is easy enough to understand since Daniel interpreted it for us.

This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this.
The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”

 

[Brakelite]

Didn't the Medes-Persia kingdom conquer Babylon - the second kingdom? Did Greece conquer the second kingdom?
If we look in Chapter 8, Gabriel identifies the second kingdom as a single animal - that of a ram with 2 horns. Those 2 horns represent Darius and Cyrus. The other animal in Chapter 8 is the he-goat with 1 horn, representing Alexander of Greece.

You mention the second beast is a bear, and he comes after Babylon. But the third beast in Chapter 7 is symbolized by a leopard having wings (denoting speed - symbolizing Alexander using speed to conquer his enemies) and 4 heads on the leopard - represents the 4 generals that will take over after the death of Alexander.

Rome is indeed not mentioned by name, but they are the only ones who made their weapons of iron and the only kingdom that was in place during the time of the Messiah.

If you would like to discuss this, fine, if not, no problem...

The only logical and historical interpretation. It really is unchallenged by any competent Bible student. Even the anti-nicene fathers taught the same thing. And the ten horns of the 4th beast represent the 10 major kingdoms that took over the territory vacated by Rome in the western hemisphere, 3 of which were destroyed, the remaining 7 forming the early nations of modern Europe. No other prophetic interpretation is tenable. The 11th horn, described at that time as beginning little, grew to be greater than the other 7. The only entity, again ONLY entity that the little horn could possibly be is the papacy. Rising to power AFTER the establishment of the first 10 in the 5th century, uprooting the 3 through its influence on the Roman empire in the east, and still there at the second coming.

 

[David in NJ]

The only logical and historical interpretation. It really is unchallenged by any competent Bible student. Even the anti-nicene fathers taught the same thing. And the ten horns of the 4th beast represent the 10 major kingdoms that took over the territory vacated by Rome in the western hemisphere, 3 of which were destroyed, the remaining 7 forming the early nations of modern Europe. No other prophetic interpretation is tenable. The 11th horn, described at that time as beginning little, grew to be greater than the other 7. The only entity, again ONLY entity that the little horn could possibly be is the papacy. Rising to power AFTER the establishment of the first 10 in the 5th century, uprooting the 3 through its influence on the Roman empire in the east, and still there at the second coming.

You may not know this: There are some prophecy(s) that repeats Itself until all things are fulfilled.

 

[CTK]

Daniel ch2 is easy enough to understand since Daniel interpreted it for us.

This is the dream. Now we will tell the interpretation of it before the king. You, O king, are a king of kings. For the God of heaven has given you a kingdom, power, strength, and glory; and wherever the children of men dwell, or the beasts of the field and the birds of the heaven, He has given them into your hand, and has made you ruler over them all—you are this head of gold. But after you shall arise another kingdom inferior to yours; then another, a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold—the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this.
The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure.”

Okay, Daniel gave us the interpretation, but what does it mean?

 

[Brakelite]

You may not know this: There are some prophecy(s) that repeats Itself until all things are fulfilled.

Indeed they do, and offer further information regarding details. But the main actors remain the same, and the chronology remains the same.

 

[David in NJ]

Okay, Daniel gave us the interpretation, but what does it mean?

Since Daniel gave us the literal interpretation, why not just accept it at face-value!

The statue represents the 5 Major Ruling Kingdoms that will rule over the earth until the Second Coming of Christ!

ALL 5 are present today via the establishment of that which each Kingdom IMPARTS.

 

[CTK]

The only logical and historical interpretation. It really is unchallenged by any competent Bible student. Even the anti-nicene fathers taught the same thing. And the ten horns of the 4th beast represent the 10 major kingdoms that took over the territory vacated by Rome in the western hemisphere, 3 of which were destroyed, the remaining 7 forming the early nations of modern Europe. No other prophetic interpretation is tenable. The 11th horn, described at that time as beginning little, grew to be greater than the other 7. The only entity, again ONLY entity that the little horn could possibly be is the papacy. Rising to power AFTER the establishment of the first 10 in the 5th century, uprooting the 3 through its influence on the Roman empire in the east, and still there at the second coming.

Well, I certainly agree with you that the little horn is the papacy!

Did the little horn and the 10 horns come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome? Are the 10 horns the same as the 10 toes?

 

[CTK]

Since Daniel gave us the literal interpretation, why not just accept it at face-value!

The statue represents the 5 Major Ruling Kingdoms that will rule over the earth until the Second Coming of Christ!

ALL 5 are present today via the establishment of that which each Kingdom IMPARTS.

Okay and thanks. Who are the five kingdoms? I can only identify 4, and the 4th will continue until the end of time.
Who or what is the clay component? God gave Daniel all of these symbols- they can not be taken as face value - there is no consensus on the identity of the kingdoms, the kings, the number of them, the identity of the little horn, the identity of the 10 horns, the timing of all of them, etc.

There is anything but “face value” being given here in Chapter 2.

Which is why it is such a difficult and complex set of prophecies to unpack.

 

[David in NJ]

Okay and thanks. Who are the five kingdoms? I can only identify 4, and the 4th will continue until the end of time.
Who or what is the clay component? God gave Daniel all of these symbols- they can not be taken as face value - there is no consensus on the identity of the kingdoms, the kings, the number of them, the identity of the little horn, the identity of the 10 horns, the timing of all of them, etc.

There is anything but “face value” being given here in Chapter 2.

Which is why it is such a difficult and complex set of prophecies to unpack.

You are correct = FOUR
The fourth kingdom (legs of iron) extends and morphs into the iron/clay feet with ten toes, which i call the 5th.

Once the ten toes are completed (we are almost there and may already be there) and other Prophecy is fulfilled, JESUS Returns.

 

[CTK]

You are correct = FOUR
The fourth kingdom (legs of iron) extends and morphs into the iron/clay feet with ten toes, which i call the 5th.

Once the ten toes are completed (we are almost there and may already be there) and other Prophecy is fulfilled, JESUS Returns.

Thanks,

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks,

i edited my post
please read it again - thank you

 

[CTK]

You are correct = FOUR
The fourth kingdom (legs of iron) extends and morphs into the iron/clay feet with ten toes, which i call the 5th.

Once the ten toes are completed (we are almost there and may already be there) and other Prophecy is fulfilled, JESUS Returns.

Thanks! But it does seem to get much more complicated to unpack - at least for me it was. So, without putting words in your mouth, the 10 toes are also the 10 horns? When did they arrive and why? Didn't they exist within the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, meaning they had to be in existence before pagan Rome was destroyed (7:11 around 476 AD)? If the little horn is indeed the papacy, then when did they attack the 10 horns and leave 7 remaining? The timing is so crucial in these chapters. Most place these actors to still come in the future... while others contend they were the 10 tribes that were conquered after 530 AD and physically destroyed the Visogoths, the Huriles, and the other kingdom I can not remember. Then there are the many who contend they are affilitated with the EU in the future... As you can see Chapter 2 is anything but face value....

 

[David in NJ]

Thanks! But it does seem to get much more complicated to unpack - at least for me it was. So, without putting words in your mouth, the 10 toes are also the 10 horns? When did they arrive and why? Didn't they exist within the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome, meaning they had to be in existence before pagan Rome was destroyed (7:11 around 476 AD)? If the little horn is indeed the papacy, then when did they attack the 10 horns and leave 7 remaining? The timing is so crucial in these chapters. Most place these actors to still come in the future... while others contend they were the 10 tribes that were conquered after 530 AD and physically destroyed the Visogoths, the Huriles, and the other kingdom I can not remember. Then there are the many who contend they are affilitated with the EU in the future... As you can see Chapter 2 is anything but face value....

i have this to be of the UP-Most Help = Matt 18:1-3

Read - Pray - Read - Pray = do it again

 

[CTK]

i have this to be of the UP-Most Help = Matt 18:1-3

Read - Pray - Read - Pray = do it again

David, sorry, but you lost me....

 

[David in NJ]

David, sorry, but you lost me....

Have you ever read and prayed the Gospel of John = completely?

Locks need keys to open them.

 

[Brakelite]

Well, I certainly agree with you that the little horn is the papacy!

Did the little horn and the 10 horns come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome? Are the 10 horns the same as the 10 toes?

I am not convinced the ten toes are the same as the ten horns. The ten toes are destroyed at the second coming in Daniel 2. Yet we know that 3 of the ten horns were destroyed by the little horn prior to the 6th century. In Revelation we see another ten horns, which I think are the same as the ten toes.

“12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. ”
Revelation 17:12-13 KJV

Only 7 horns gave the papacy their allegiance 1500 years ago. They were the nations of Europe, and even then, they were divided and at war with one another despite papal Rome's valiant attempts to unite them.
In the future, I believe the world will be divided into ten administrative areas, headed by 10 rulers who "give their power and strength to the beast"... the papacy. However, if we consider the language as written, it could be ten kings ruling over one territory, a global union. This fits with the treaty of the prophetic picture which tells us the 7th head, papal Rome revived as a church/ state union after its apparently mortal wound is healed.

The papacy then will be a global dictator... for a prophetic hour... which is around a couple of weeks. A short time. It will be these ten horns/toes destroyed by Christ at the second coming.
This short time of one hour (Rev17:12) is suggested also in Rev. 17:10.

 

[CTK]

Have you ever read and prayed the Gospel of John = completely?

Locks need keys to open them.

Okay, then you might tell me what the Gospel of John is telling you about the questions I asked of you in Daniel Chapter 2... Thanks.

 

[David in NJ]

Okay, then you might tell me what the Gospel of John is telling you about the questions I asked of you in Daniel Chapter 2... Thanks.

You did not answer the simple question, so let me be a little more specific.

Have you ever devoted your heart to the Lord in seeking His understanding by reading the Gospel of John?

 

[CTK]

I am not convinced the ten toes are the same as the ten horns. The ten toes are destroyed at the second coming in Daniel 2. Yet we know that 3 of the ten horns were destroyed by the little horn prior to the 6th century. In Revelation we see another ten horns, which I think are the same as the ten toes.

“12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. 13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. ”
Revelation 17:12-13 KJV

Only 7 horns gave the papacy their allegiance 1500 years ago. They were the nations of Europe, and even then, they were divided and at war with one another despite papal Rome's valiant attempts to unite them.
In the future, I believe the world will be divided into ten administrative areas, headed by 10 rulers who "give their power and strength to the beast"... the papacy. However, if we consider the language as written, it could be ten kings ruling over one territory, a global union. This fits with the treaty of the prophetic picture which tells us the 7th head, papal Rome revived as a church/ state union after its apparently mortal wound is healed.

The papacy then will be a global dictator... for a prophetic hour... which is around a couple of weeks. A short time. It will be these ten horns/toes destroyed by Christ at the second coming.
This short time of one hour (Rev17:12) is suggested also in Rev. 17:10.

Thank you very much. I can assure you that your interpretations are much more enlign with "today's accepted interpretations." Meaning, I would say that close to 99 % of folks believe the 10 are indeed powers that have yet to come and may relate to the EU. The other 9.99999% believe they represent the 10 nations that were taken over by the papacy after 530 AD... but completely destroying 3 out of existence. And then there is me..... .000001%.

So, if I may, I would like to ask you to follow me backwards in time. First, I agree with you the little horn is indeed the papacy. No other person could meet all the characteristics, actions, and certainly the timing of his coming than the papacy. He checks all the boxes. Whether they come from Chapter's 2,7,8,9, and 11.

If the little horn came to full power at 530 AD, then would you agree he had to come out of the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome? And if you agree with that, then you also might agree that he is found in Chapter 7 when he comes out from that kingdom, AND, he comes AFTER the 10 horns.
If the 10 horns are also the 10 toes, then the toes were mentioned in Chapter 2, but there is no mention of the little horn in Chapter 2.

This should / might be beginning to paint a picture of the little horn and the 10 horns......

Method in Daniel: - In Daniel, God will reveal 4 and only 4 kingdoms that will come out of the sea. There will never be a 5th or 6th kingdom. God will ensure everyone of His prophecies are found within these 4 kingdoms. But I believe it is safe to say that everyone recognizes how God would depict these SAME four kingdoms differently in Chapters 2,7 and 8. He will use very different symbols for these same kingdoms and bring out different characteristics and behaviors attributed to them.

What I would ask you to consider is that God will do the EXACT same thing with the 10 toes, the 10 horns, the10 kings. He will depict these same 10 powers in very different ways as they travel from the toes to the top of the 4th kingdom beast in Chapter 7.

Look forward to your and any others thoughts on this...

 

[CTK]

You did not answer the simple question, so let me be a little more specific.

Have you ever devoted your heart to the Lord in seeking His understanding by reading the Gospel of John?

David, I am very sorry but I really do not believe you are interested in discussing or answering these questions in Chapter 2. Sorry!