Amil can only be proved to be true if Amils accept all of the following terms and convincingly satisfy these terms.

[Davidpt]

These terms are not unreasonable, thus are fair. If Amils are to prove what they allege, that Amil is true, well they can't do that until they first show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years, according to the text of Revelation 20.

After all, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, if saints are being martyred during the thousand years, this means Premil is not true, that it has been debunked. It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, if no saints are being martyred during the thousand years, this means Amil is not true, that it has been debunked.

Amils then need to show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years and they must show this under the following terms. Anything less is unsatisfactory.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


They have to show/prove using this to do so---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands . IOW, they cannot use speculation, thus they just can't make up stuff, they must produce the Scriptures that show when and how these have been martyred, and how these Scriptures are proving that they were martyred during the thousand years because they refused to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

No need to even bring satan's little season into it. Amils won't make it to that part to begin with. Meaning they won't be able to satisfy all the terms above because they will fail to produce the Scripture that show how and when saints are martyred during the thousand years for having not worshiped the beast.

They obviously can't use anything in Revelation 13 to show/prove that, the fact everything involving that chapter, including it's 42 month reign when it is causing saints to be martyred, means it is no longer in the pit at the time. Except Amils have the beast remaining in the pit the entire thousand years, thus don't have it ascending out of the pit until the thousand years are finished first.

And that Revelation 13 is involving events after it has ascended out of the pit first. IOW, it is ludicrous, that in Revelation 13, the beast is still in the pit the entire time. It is equally ludicrous that these in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--that they are not martyred during the era of time involving the beast in Revelation 13 after it has ascended out of the pit first. Of course they are. It's called Scripture interpreting Scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These terms are not unreasonable, thus are fair. If Amils are to prove what they allege, that Amil is true, well they can't do that until they first show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years.

After all, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, if saints are being martyred during the thousand years, this means Premil is not true, that it has been debunked. It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, if no saints are being martyred during the thousand years, this means Amil is not true, that it has been debunked.

Amils then need to show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years and they must show this under the following terms. Anything less is unsatisfactory.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


They have to show/prove using this to do so---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands . IOW, they cannot use speculation, thus they just can't make up stuff, they must produce the Scriptures that show when and how these have been martyred, and how these Scriptures are proving that they were martyred during the thousand years because they refused to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

No need to even bring satan's little season into it. Amils won't make it to that part to begin with. Meaning they won't be able to satisfy all the terms above because they will fail to produce the Scripture that show how and when saints are martyred during the thousand years for having not worshiped the beast.

They obviously can't use anything in Revelation 13 to show/prove that, the fact everything involving that chapter, including it's 42 month reign when it is causing saints to be martyred, means it is no longer in the pit at the time. Except Amils have the beast remaining in the pit the entire thousand years, thus don't have it ascending out of the pit until the thousand years are finished first.

And that Revelation 13 is involving events after it has ascended out of the pit first. IOW, it is ludicrous, that in Revelation 13, the beast is still in the pit the entire time. It is equally ludicrous that these in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--that they are not martyred during the era of time involving the beast in Revelation 13 after it has ascended out of the pit first. Of course they are. It's called Scripture interpreting Scripture.

It's pretty clear by now that nothing we can do will ever satisfy you, so why should we bother with this? Do you somehow not know that we (WPM and I in particular) have addressed this with you many times already in the past? Do you imagine that we'll say anything different this time than we've already said to you in the past? But, here you are bringing this up as if we haven't already discussed this with you several times before.

As we have indicated to you many times before, our understanding of the beast is completely different from yours. And, no matter what we do, we can't get you to even understand what we believe about the beast. So, if you can't even understand our understanding of the beast, then how can you understand anything we say about the beast? The only way you could be satisfied with our response is if we had the same understanding of the beast as you do, but we don't. So, what is the point of yet again trying to explain something to you that you either can't understand or make little effort to understand?

Doctrine needs to be founded on clear and straightforward scriptures which we can then use to help interpret more difficult scriptures like those found in books like Daniel, Isaiah and Revelation. There are clear scriptures which teach that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection, that Satan was bound long ago, that all unbelievers will be killed when Christ returns, that all of the dead will be resurrected in the same hour, and that all people will be judged at the same time. Premils ignore those scripture or try to make them fit their interpretation of Revelation 20 instead of the other way around.

You talk about scripture interpreting scripture. LOL. As if you allow scripture to interpret scripture. Hardly.

Do you get your understanding of the timing of Christ's reign by interpreting scripture with scripture? Not at all. Scripture teaches that He has been reigning since His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Rev 1:5-6), but you ignore that.

Do you get your understanding of two future judgment days from the scriptures that only speak of one judgment day, such as Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 25:31-46? No.

Do you get your understanding of two separate mass bodily resurrections from John 5:28-29, which says a singular hour is coming when all of the dead will be raised?

Do you get your understanding that there will be mortal survivors of Christ's return from passages that say Jesus will destroy all of His enemies when He returns, such as Matthew 24:35-39, Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12 and Rev 19:17-18?

Oops. So much for you interpreting scripture with scripture.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These terms are not unreasonable, thus are fair. If Amils are to prove what they allege, that Amil is true, well they can't do that until they first show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years.

After all, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, if saints are being martyred during the thousand years, this means Premil is not true, that it has been debunked. It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, if no saints are being martyred during the thousand years, this means Amil is not true, that it has been debunked.

Amils then need to show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years and they must show this under the following terms. Anything less is unsatisfactory.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


They have to show/prove using this to do so---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands . IOW, they cannot use speculation, thus they just can't make up stuff, they must produce the Scriptures that show when and how these have been martyred, and how these Scriptures are proving that they were martyred during the thousand years because they refused to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

No need to even bring satan's little season into it. Amils won't make it to that part to begin with. Meaning they won't be able to satisfy all the terms above because they will fail to produce the Scripture that show how and when saints are martyred during the thousand years for having not worshiped the beast.

They obviously can't use anything in Revelation 13 to show/prove that, the fact everything involving that chapter, including it's 42 month reign when it is causing saints to be martyred, means it is no longer in the pit at the time. Except Amils have the beast remaining in the pit the entire thousand years, thus don't have it ascending out of the pit until the thousand years are finished first.

And that Revelation 13 is involving events after it has ascended out of the pit first. IOW, it is ludicrous, that in Revelation 13, the beast is still in the pit the entire time. It is equally ludicrous that these in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--that they are not martyred during the era of time involving the beast in Revelation 13 after it has ascended out of the pit first. Of course they are. It's called Scripture interpreting Scripture.

Why don't you explain the beast ascending out of the pit only when the 42 months/1260 days have ended? How do you reconcile that with your interpretation of Revelation 13 which has the beast ascending out of the pit at the beginning of the 42 months instead?

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

 

[Keraz]

There are clear scriptures which teach that Jesus has been reigning since His resurrection, that Satan was bound long ago, that all unbelievers will be killed when Christ returns, that all of the dead will be resurrected in the same hour, and that all people will be judged at the same time.

Good on you, DavidPT, for making those who hold to the belief that we are in the Millennium now, really prove it.
AMill's don't use scripture; they deny it to make their belief work.
The idea of Jesus reigning as King over the world now, makes Him a hopelessly weak and impotent ruler. Simply ridiculous.

However, those with false beliefs are locked into them and only after the Lord has taken action; will their eyes be opened and the ears unstopped:
After the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath:
Isaiah 43:8 Bring forth this people, a people whose eyes are blind, whose ears are deaf.

Isaiah 35:4-5 Be strong, fear not; the Lord comes to save you, with His vengeance and retribution. THEN the eyes of the blind will be opened and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

Isaiah 42:18-20 You that are deaf; hear now, you that are blind; look and see! Who is so deaf and blind as My servant, the messenger that I send, the one who has My trust?

Isaiah 29:18 On that Day, the deaf will hear and the blind will see.

Isaiah 29:24 Then the confused will gain understanding and the obstinate will take instruction.

Isaiah 32:3-4 Then those who see and hear will understand clearly, the impetuous mind will know and the stammering tongue will speak fluently and plainly.

When that Day, the Lords terrible Day of vengeance and wrath happens, all those who have failed to understand the truths of the Prophetic Word, will be shocked and terrified. Better to know the truth and be prepared to trust the Lord for His protection.

 

[Keraz]

Why don't you explain the beast ascending out of the pit only when the 42 months/1260 days have ended? How do you reconcile that with your interpretation of Revelation 13 which has the beast ascending out of the pit at the beginning of the 42 months instead?

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. 4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. 5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. 6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

You sadly mis-read scriptures.
Revelation 11:7....the beast that comes up from the abyss..... is just referring to the Satanic inspired 'beast', who was present when they commenced their testimony. As Revelation 13 explains.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Good on you, DavidPT, for making those who hold to the belief that we are in the Millennium now, really prove it.

LOL! As if we haven't already done so in great detail. Good one.

AMill's don't use scripture; they deny it to make their belief work.

This is just a flat out lie. We quote and exegete scripture far more than premils do and you know it.

The idea of Jesus reigning as King over the world now, makes Him a hopelessly weak and impotent ruler. Simply ridiculous.

What a stupid and foolish thing to say. You do not accept what scripture explicitly teaches. Like the Pharisees did, you demand that the Messiah should reign the way you want Him to reign.

Matthew 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Ephesians 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 2 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

He has all power in heaven and on earth and is in a position "Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named" with "all things under his feet" while being "head over all things to the church", but somehow He is not reigning now in your warped mind. What a joke! Premil foolishly slaps Jesus in His face with its denial of His current reign as King of kings and Lord of lords over all of heaven and the earth.

However, those with false beliefs are locked into them and only after the Lord has taken action; will their eyes be opened and the ears unstopped:
After the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath:
Isaiah 43:8 Bring forth this people, a people whose eyes are blind, whose ears are deaf.

Oh, so now you are associating the Lord's wrath with Amils? How foolish! We are Christians who put far more emphasis on Christ's kingship than any other doctrine and you think He will take His wrath out on us! It doesn't get any more ridiculous and foolish than this! I would never say things like this about other Christians.

When that Day, the Lords terrible Day of vengeance and wrath happens, all those who have failed to understand the truths of the Prophetic Word, will be shocked and terrified. Better to know the truth and be prepared to trust the Lord for His protection.

What a joke this is. Scripture teaches that those who belong to Christ, as all Amils do, will all be changed to have immortal bodies and will be caught up to meet Christ in the air when He comes. We will not experience God's wrath. May God have mercy on your soul for condemning Christians the way you do, acting as if having the correct end times doctrine is a requirement for salvation. How foolish!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You sadly mis-read scriptures.
Revelation 11:7....the beast that comes up from the abyss..... is just referring to the Satanic inspired 'beast', who was present when they commenced their testimony. As Revelation 13 explains.

LOL. What are you even saying? The beast of Revelation 11 is the same beast of Revelation 13. Figures you'd try to change scripture to make it fit your doctrine as you do often. You didn't even address my argument. Revelation 11 shows the beast ascending from the bottomless pit after the 42 months/1260 days ends. How does that fit your understanding of the beast already ascending from the bottomless pit at the beginning of the 42 months instead?

 

[Marty fox]

These terms are not unreasonable, thus are fair. If Amils are to prove what they allege, that Amil is true, well they can't do that until they first show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years.

After all, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, if saints are being martyred during the thousand years, this means Premil is not true, that it has been debunked. It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, if no saints are being martyred during the thousand years, this means Amil is not true, that it has been debunked.

Amils then need to show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years and they must show this under the following terms. Anything less is unsatisfactory.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


They have to show/prove using this to do so---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands . IOW, they cannot use speculation, thus they just can't make up stuff, they must produce the Scriptures that show when and how these have been martyred, and how these Scriptures are proving that they were martyred during the thousand years because they refused to worship the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

No need to even bring satan's little season into it. Amils won't make it to that part to begin with. Meaning they won't be able to satisfy all the terms above because they will fail to produce the Scripture that show how and when saints are martyred during the thousand years for having not worshiped the beast.

They obviously can't use anything in Revelation 13 to show/prove that, the fact everything involving that chapter, including it's 42 month reign when it is causing saints to be martyred, means it is no longer in the pit at the time. Except Amils have the beast remaining in the pit the entire thousand years, thus don't have it ascending out of the pit until the thousand years are finished first.

And that Revelation 13 is involving events after it has ascended out of the pit first. IOW, it is ludicrous, that in Revelation 13, the beast is still in the pit the entire time. It is equally ludicrous that these in Revelation 20:4---which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--that they are not martyred during the era of time involving the beast in Revelation 13 after it has ascended out of the pit first. Of course they are. It's called Scripture interpreting Scripture.

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

According to Paul he stated three times that this was a current reality back in his day while he was alive on earth.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

 

[Keraz]

Revelation 11 shows the beast ascending from the bottomless pit after the 42 months/1260 days ends.

Not correct, it refers to the 'beast' who comes up from the pit. Not - will come up.
As Rev 13 proves.

Scripture teaches that those who belong to Christ, as all Amils do, will all be changed to have immortal bodies and will be caught up to meet Christ in the air when He comes.

The change into immortality cannot happen at the glorious Return, that waits for the final Judgment, when the Book of Life is opened.
At the Return, then; Jesus separates the nations. Matthew 25:31-32 The GWT Judgement of God Himself, is a thousand years later, as we are plainly told.
This truth is sufficient to refute AMill and no amount of lengthy posting can make that false theory work.

 

[Davidpt]

I already typed the following up a little bit ago, may as well post it now, then.

The following is an example of Scripture interpreting Scripture.

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)

Let's now break this down like such.

-----------------------------------
A) and which had not worshipped the beast(Revelation 20:4)


which had the wound by a sword, and did live(Revelation 13:14)

B) neither his image(Revelation 20:4)

saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live(Revelation 13:14)

and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15)

C) neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name(Revelation 13:16-17)
---------------------------------------------------
Next let's use some common sense here per the following.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Common sense says, if this first vial is a one time event, this means that everyone it is being poured out upon, they all have to be alive at the same time. Obviously, these vials of wrath don't get poured out on anyone that is already physically dead.


Common sense also says, until A), B), and C) above have been fulfilled first, Revelation 16:2 is not applicable in the meantime. After all, whoever heard of being punished for something one is not even doing yet?

So, until a first beast rises out of the sea, having a deadly wound that is healed, and until a 2nd beast rises out of the earth, B) and C) is not applicable yet. Maybe the same for A) as well? I'm not certain but I am certain about B) and C).

This same logic applies to these martyrs in Revelation 20:4 which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. IOW, they can't be martyred for these reasons listed in this verse until A), B), and C) above have been fulfilled first.

 

[rwb]

These terms are not unreasonable, thus are fair. If Amils are to prove what they allege, that Amil is true, well they can't do that until they first show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years.

Have you forgotten that Amils view a thousand years to represent an unspecified amount of time that began with the first advent of Christ and shall end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound? Since saints have been martyred, are being martyred, and shall continue to be martyred throughout this symbolic (a thousand years) time proves Amil.

After all, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out, if saints are being martyred during the thousand years, this means Premil is not true, that it has been debunked.

Looks like it's time for Premillennialists to admit their doctrine is not truth and admit it has been debunked according to rules you set forth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

According to Paul he stated three times that this was a current reality back in his day while he was alive on earth.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

Agree. Another thing we can do to show the timing of Revelation 20 is to compare these two passages:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first thing to notice here is that it says Jesus Christ is "the first begotten of the dead". That means He was the first to rise from the dead. His resurrection unto bodily immortality made it possible for the dead in Christ to also be resurrected unto bodily immortality when He comes (1 Cor 15:22-23).

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

The next thing to notice is that it calls Jesus "the prince of the kings of the earth" and "to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever". Present tense. He reigns now, as other scriptures in indicate as well (Matt 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13).

The next thing to notice is that having part in the first resurrection, which is Christ's resurrection, results in the second death having no power over someone. At what point does the second death no longer have power over someone? Surely, it doesn't have power over the dead in Christ whose souls are in heaven with Jesus right now. Surely, a bodily resurrection is not necessary in order to avoid the second death or else those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord would not avoid the second death. Spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection and having your sins washed away by His blood is how the second death no longer has power over someone.

Finally, notice when people are made priests of God and of Christ. That had already occurred at the time John was writing the book. Peter wrote that those in the church ARE a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9). So, that again shows how Revelation 20 has been a reality for a long time already. All of the things written in Revelation 20:6 have been true about Christ and for believers since the resurrection of Christ.

 

[Marty fox]

I already typed the following up a little bit ago, may as well post it now, then.

The following is an example of Scripture interpreting Scripture.

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)

Let's now break this down like such.

-----------------------------------
A) and which had not worshipped the beast(Revelation 20:4)


which had the wound by a sword, and did live(Revelation 13:14)

B) neither his image(Revelation 20:4)

saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live(Revelation 13:14)

and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15)

C) neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name(Revelation 13:16-17)
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Next let's use some common sense here per the following.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Common sense says, if this first vial is a one time event, this means that everyone it is being poured out upon, they all have to be alive at the same time. Obviously, these vials of wrath don't get poured out on anyone that is already physically dead.


Common sense also says, until A), B), and C) above have been fulfilled first, Revelation 16:2 is not applicable in the meantime. After all, whoever heard of being punished for something one is not even doing yet?

So, until a first beast rises out of the sea, having a deadly wound that is healed, and until a 2nd beast rises out of the earth, B) and C) is not applicable yet. Maybe the same for A) as well? I'm not certain but I am certain about B) and C).

This same logic applies to these martyrs in Revelation 20:4 which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. IOW, they can't be martyred for these reasons listed in this verse until A), B), and C) above have been fulfilled first.

Then these events must of happened already then.

You are basing your view that its a fact that these events haven't happed yet which isn't a fair argument because maybe they did or maybe they didn't

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not correct, it refers to the 'beast' who comes up from the pit. Not - will come up.
As Rev 13 proves.

Clearly, it doesn't come up from the pit until the 42 months/1260 days ends first. That is how it is able to kill the two witnesses which it couldn't do prior to coming up from the pit.

The change into immortality cannot happen at the glorious Return, that waits for the final Judgment, when the Book of Life is opened.
At the Return, then; Jesus separates the nations. Matthew 25:31-32 The GWT Judgement of God Himself, is a thousand years later, as we are plainly told.
This truth is sufficient to refute AMill and no amount of lengthy posting can make that false theory work.

Total nonsense. What you are saying is not what is indicated in Matthew 25:31-46 at all. You make that passage say what you want it to say. But, the reality is that it shows the saved and lost all being gathered at the same time and judged at the same time when Jesus comes, and that contradicts your premil teaching.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I already typed the following up a little bit ago, may as well post it now, then.

The following is an example of Scripture interpreting Scripture.

and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)

Let's now break this down like such.

-----------------------------------
A) and which had not worshipped the beast(Revelation 20:4)


which had the wound by a sword, and did live(Revelation 13:14)

B) neither his image(Revelation 20:4)

saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live(Revelation 13:14)

and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed(Revelation 13:15)

C) neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands(Revelation 20:4)

And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name(Revelation 13:16-17)
---------------------------------------------------
Next let's use some common sense here per the following.

Revelation 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


Common sense says,

LOL. This is your problem. You don't think spiritual discernment from the Holy Spirit is required to interpret these things. It's just all based on common sense. Any random unbelievers on the street can interpret scripture the same way you do using common sense.

if this first vial is a one time event, this means that everyone it is being poured out upon, they all have to be alive at the same time. Obviously, these vials of wrath don't get poured out on anyone that is already physically dead.

LOL. What are you even saying here? Where does that say it is being poured out on literally all who ever have the mark of the beast rather than those who have the mark of the beast at that time? You make so many assumptions and you call that "common sense" and then think you've proven something. Unbelievable.

Common sense also says, until A), B), and C) above have been fulfilled first, Revelation 16:2 is not applicable in the meantime. After all, whoever heard of being punished for something one is not even doing yet?

So, until a first beast rises out of the sea, having a deadly wound that is healed, and until a 2nd beast rises out of the earth, B) and C) is not applicable yet. Maybe the same for A) as well? I'm not certain but I am certain about B) and C).

This same logic applies to these martyrs in Revelation 20:4 which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. IOW, they can't be martyred for these reasons listed in this verse until A), B), and C) above have been fulfilled first.

All of this is based on your futurist assumption that everyone who ever has the mark of the beast are all living at the same time. We amils are not obligated to agree with your futurist assumptions. If you really want to see how to interpret scripture with scripture and determine the timing of Revelation 20, then please read my post #12.

 

[Marty fox]

Agree. Another thing we can do to show the timing of Revelation 20 is to compare these two passages:

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

The first thing to notice here is that it says Jesus Christ is "the first begotten of the dead". That means He was the first to rise from the dead. His resurrection unto bodily immortality made it possible for the dead in Christ to also be resurrected unto bodily immortality when He comes (1 Cor 15:22-23).

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

The next thing to notice is that it calls Jesus "the prince of the kings of the earth" and "to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever". Present tense. He reigns now, as other scriptures in indicate as well (Matt 28:16-18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13).

The next thing to notice is that having part in the first resurrection, which is Christ's resurrection, results in the second death having no power over someone. At what point does the second death no longer have power over someone? Surely, it doesn't have power over the dead in Christ whose souls are in heaven with Jesus right now. Surely, a bodily resurrection is not necessary in order to avoid the second death or else those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord would not avoid the second death. Spiritually having part in Christ's resurrection and having your sins washed away by His blood is how the second death no longer has power over someone.

Finally, notice when people are made priests of God and of Christ. That had already occurred at the time John was writing the book. Peter wrote that those in the church ARE a royal priesthood (1 Peter 2:9). So, that again shows how Revelation 20 has been a reality for a long time already. All of the things written in Revelation 20:6 have been true about Christ and for believers since the resurrection of Christ.

Yes good argument they are written in a current present tense reality not a future reality.

 

[Davidpt]

Have you forgotten that Amils view a thousand years to represent an unspecified amount of time that began with the first advent of Christ and shall end when the seventh trumpet begins to sound? Since saints have been martyred, are being martyred, and shall continue to be martyred throughout this symbolic (a thousand years) time proves Amil.

I didn't forget that. How is that relevant per the OP, though? The OP involves whether or not saints are being martyred during the thousand years. And that we can not ignore what Revelation 20:4 records concerning the following martyrs--which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

Obviously, there has to be an era of time that explains when they were martyred and the reasons they were martyred. Is there an era of time recorded in the Bible that might explain this? Of course there is, that being Revelation 13. Except Revelation 13 only involves 42 months, therefore, couldn't possibly be meaning the thousand years. But let's say it could be meaning that. How in the world would that help Amil if Amil has the beast in the pit the entire thousand years? Clearly, as of Revelation 13, the beast is no longer in the pit at this point. Amil would be contradicting itself if Amil is insisting that the beast is in the pit the entire thousand years, while insisting Revelation 13 is paralleling this same thousand years.

 

[Zao is life]

These terms are not unreasonable, thus are fair. If Amils are to prove what they allege, that Amil is true, well they can't do that until they first show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years.

Fully agree. Just for the sake of all readers, it may be important to add the part that I added to your sentence after the comma: "These terms are not unreasonable, thus are fair. If Amils are to prove what they allege, that Amil is true, well they can't do that until they first show/prove that saints are being martyred during the thousand years, according to the text of Revelation 20".

All that happens to the saints according to the text of Revelation 20 is that when the Gog/Magog armies gather for battle and encircle the camp of the saints, fire comes down from God out of heaven and destroys them.

 

[Davidpt]

All that happens to the saints according to the text of Revelation 20 is that when the Gog/Magog armies gather for battle and encircle the camp of the saints, fire comes down from God out of heaven and destroys them.

In a different thread earlier today which inspired me to make this thread, I made that very same point you raise here. Apparently, I forgot to factor that in, in the OP. But anyway, the following is what I said earlier.

It contradicts what is already recorded in Revelation 20:4, that any and all martyring of saints precede satan being released from the pit. Look at Revelation 20:7-9. Does it look like any saints are being martyred at the time?

 

[rwb]

I didn't forget that. How is that relevant per the OP, though? The OP involves whether or not saints are being martyred during the thousand years.

How could Amils NOT believe saints are being martyred during this symbolic period of time, since we believe a/the thousand years does not equate to one thousand years in the future, because it symbolizes an unspecified amount of time that began with the advent of Christ coming to earth a man, and will not end until the seventh trumpet sounds.

And that we can not ignore what Revelation 20:4 records concerning the following martyrs--which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.

These saints (Rev 20) were martyred AFTER they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Obviously, there has to be an era of time that explains when they were martyred and the reasons they were martyred. Is there an era of time recorded in the Bible that might explain this? Of course there is, that being Revelation 13. Except Revelation 13 only involves 42 months, therefore, couldn't possibly be meaning the thousand years. But let's say it could be meaning that. How in the world would that help Amil if Amil has the beast in the pit the entire thousand years? Clearly, as of Revelation 13, the beast is no longer in the pit at this point. Amil would be contradicting itself if Amil is insisting that the beast is in the pit the entire thousand years, while insisting Revelation 13 is paralleling this same thousand years.

That era of time is time that began with Christ first coming and shall not end until the seventh trumpet begins to sound. The only time remaining AFTER the seventh trumpet begins to sound is Satan's little season. I hope you don't believe that his little season equates to one thousand literal years! All, without exception, times mentioned in the Revelation are taking place within this time John writes a/the thousand years. The only time that will not fall within this time is Satan's little season. As long as you continue to try to force TIME between the first advent of Christ until the seventh trumpet begins to sound as LITERALLY ONE THOUSAND YEARS, you will NEVER be able to reconcile the Bible that there are no contradictions found there.